https://i.ibb.co/0mwfrpP/Safety.png
You have utterly failed at the task of designing an assassin.
There is nothing high-risk, high-reward about being safer than average.
Zardo21 votesThat's the biggest issue I have with him. The only way he dies is if he engages and messes up the engage. If he doesn't he's just going to dash out and use his insane MS steroid + invis to escape. There are no supports who even come close to how safe this guy is, even rakan is jealous of his safety.
Illabethe1 votesHis death rate is high for an assassin. Don't compare him to enchanters. Compare him to assassins. He averages half to a full death more per game than other assassins.
P.S. Nami dies less than Pyke..... Morg dies less than Pyke.....
Metal Janna2 votesHis death rate is high for an assassin. Don't compare him to enchanters. Compare him to assassins. He averages half to a full death more per game than other assassins.
P.S. Nami dies less than Pyke..... Morg dies less than Pyke.....
Only if you're looking at overall stats, which include solo lane versions of the champions. Morgana support and Nami support do not die less than Pyke support, despite one having alot of peel and the other an instant spellshield.
Z3SIeeper7 votes"Don't compare him to a similarly semi-gold starved support, compare him to a solo laner."
Hmmmm idk about that one fam.
Like I get where you're coming from, but idk if we can really apply that here.
Illabethe1 votesIn terms of death rates, the comparison is adequate.
Also, what planet are you living on that supports are now gold starved? Gold has never been higher for support than now. EVER. A well managed support has turned all the lane-limiting trinket nerf/reworks into 10-20% more gold than they got last year. Gold is only an issue as support if you do not do your full job.
Z3SIeeper2 votes"semi" I'm fully aware supports ain't like they are back in S2 w/ Heart of Gold/Kage Pick and having to buy all Wards.
Illabethe1 votesAs a support main, I can tell you; I usually tie #2 or #3 per team in gold. I'm usually the best gold in the game if playing a carry support.
Z3SIeeper1 votesYknow, that might be more of the problem rather than it just being Pyke. Especially since his damage is more tied to items than it is to levels.
I think the support role has just been gold creeped for too long.
Or it could just be Pyke specific and I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill here.
Exin01 votesThat's the biggest issue I have with him. The only way he dies is if he engages and messes up the engage. If he doesn't he's just going to dash out and use his insane MS steroid + invis to escape. There are no supports who even come close to how safe this guy is, even rakan is jealous of his safety.
Well he was created just for flashy plays, new toy for league of assassins. Whole concept of assassin support was weird: cc bot with burst, invisibility, durability , sustain that make tanks cry, resetting execute with absurd threshold and embed money printer. What can possibly can go wrong? He is not support its assassin on budget with kit that is offensive and defensive at same time to cover any weakens. Properly played he is practically immortal.
preternatural7 voteswhy does he get so much efficiency on his grey health? i don't understand it. i can't even look at his stealth or his dmg when he get's to heal up ALL THE DAMAGE HE TOOK. what is that shit yo
FlameHalbrdOkido1 votesThat's probably the bigger issue with him, no other support has his lvl of sustain thus its harder 2 punish him for mistakes, poke him him down or chase and finish him off if he can go unseen. Vision is probably more essential against him than other supports people need 2 learn that with Pyke the vision game needs 2 adapt, you have 2 ward aggressively to attempt reducing his sustain. Play Corki, Ashe, Kalista, karma, soraka, really any champ that offers vision in thier kit 2 help counter him. Bottom line, no champion should have the sustain of a tank if they aren't a tank. Man I bet Pyke+Tahm bot lane would be great! Let's keep in mind peeps are still figuring out Yuumi tho.
Durzaka1 votesI imagine it is because he physically cannot gain any extra HP, even if he wants to, so the sustain in his kit needs to be strong enough to compensate for it.
Illabethe4 votesYou know what's funny about the charts you linked?
2 of them have MUCH higher win rates on average than the "safe" Assassin.
In other words, "Safe" Assassin is playing too safe, not contributing to his games, on average.
Then you look at the fact Yuumi blows him out of the water for damage.
And then you left out all the real back line supports (Blitz, Thresh, Nami.....)
Metal Janna3 votesYou know what's funny about the charts you linked?
2 of them have MUCH higher win rates on average than the "safe" Assassin.
Irrelevant. Win rate is a measure of overall power, not safety.
Then you look at the fact Yuumi blows him out of the water for damage.
Not a good thing, but irrelevant. Again, we're comparing safety... as in "immunity to being outplayed and dying as a result".
And then you left out all the real back line supports (Blitz, Thresh, Nami.....)
Backline support. As in "the ADC is in front of me when the fighting starts". Any good Thresh or Blitzcrank is going to be stepping out from behind the minions to initiate a fight, except in the case of their opponent screwing up and letting them land a max range hook. Nami will walk up to the enemies to W often until mid-late game when its usefulness falls off. After that she might qualify as a backline support because she'll be playing safe and using her spells reactively, but during the early part of the game when she's strongest she is often in front of the carry doing her job: trading and trying to land bubbles.
SoaringDive1 votesThe point is that Pyke's safety doesn't matter the way you think it does.
Exin01 votesYou know what's funny about the charts you linked?
2 of them have MUCH higher win rates on average than the "safe" Assassin.
In other words, "Safe" Assassin is playing too safe, not contributing to his games, on average.
Then you look at the fact Yuumi blows him out of the water for damage.
And then you left out all the real back line supports (Blitz, Thresh, Nami.....)
Yummi is delivering chunks of damage whole game and while she can wreck impressive numbers her killing potential is super low. Pyke on other hand just kill target without piling up excessive damage.
GripaAviara4 votesPyke is a mess of a champion. It's fun to play but stupid to play against and overloaded
Pika Fox1 votesPyke is a support first, assassin second. Really important distinction.
He also cant play agro on lane at all unless he lands a lucky Q, so he will naturally "die less". His ADC will likely die a lot more, however.
Nielarken3 votesSupport first with what? his stun? because the other 90% of his kit is assassin based abilities with scaling on par with solo lane assassins.
crippler381 votesThe hook's pretty supporty. If his kit didn't have assassin scalings then he'd go back to building Tank Pyke which nobody wants.
(For those that don't know, Pyke might not gain HP from items but stacking a bunch of resistances on a character who has to dive in to stun is very helpful for his overall effectiveness. Riot has been trying to get people to build full damage on him instead of just relying on ultimate executes for damage and using his CC for everything else.
Pika Fox1 votesLol? Pyke has like 0 damage in his kit putside of his ult.
Nielarken2 voteslolwhat? No damage? he has the same ad scaling as rengar and talon with his ult scaling off of 3 stats to the point where you can kill people from 50% hp.
Pika Fox1 votesHis q and e have the same damage and low CD? As who, braum? Shit, braums Q probably does MORE damage.
Nielarken1 votesBraums q stright from lol wiki 60 / 105 / 150 / 195 / 240 (+ 2.5% of Braum's maximum health)
Pykes abilities Q: 75 / 125 / 175 / 225 / 275 (+ 60% bonus AD) E: 95 / 125 / 155 / 185 / 215 (+ 100% bonus AD)
And for what i said earlier Talons Q: 65 / 90 / 115 / 140 / 165 (+ 110% bonus AD) W: 50 / 65 / 80 / 95 / 110 (+ 40% bonus AD) W Return: 70 / 85 / 100 / 115 / 130 (+ 60% bonus AD)
And Rengar Q: 30 / 60 / 90 / 120 / 150 (+ 0 / 5 / 10 / 15 / 20% AD) Q Empowered: 30 − 240 (based on level) (+ 40% AD)
Not really seeing this low damage and being a support first kit that you are trying desperately to defend.
Pika Fox1 votesSo literally less damage than all 3? By a large margin? And you dont see this "low damage"?
Pykes q and e literally have 2-3x the CD of the other abilities, and rengar/talon Qs are also autos.
SweedishGunner1 votesLet's be honest here though, teams will actively target Soraka, an assassin or diver will prioritise Soraka over carries due to how Soraka works. This is why she commonly takes barrier over Ignite or Exhaust.
No one is diving the enemy team to focus their Pyke, why would you?
shipo131 votesPyke can very easily jump away (= refill HP).
crippler381 votesProbably because assassins are by default extremely mobile and they want Pyke to be an assassin with moderate assassination potential (I say moderate because his abilities are very slow to come out) who can't lane by himself with good CC (so he is played support) and has incentives to build damage over tanky items (which is what they're doing with their passive and ultimate by making them scale with damage items super hard).
So I get why they're doing it, but maybe doubling the bonus gold generated by his ultimate was a bit much.
EDIT: Also because he's encouraged to take a ton of kills and thus killstreak they probably don't want him to be too easy to kill since optimally he should have a ridonk kill count to satisfy his gold needs despite his inability to farm.
Daddy Ants1 votes
ChaosReyn1 votesMy issue with Pyke more than anything is that his passive makes it to the point where even if he does mess up the engage, he can still have out-traded you after he walks out of sight and heals 97% of his missing HP back. >.>
Point blank, if you're making an assassin support, there's ZERO reason for a passive like that to be so overtuned. If you wanna make him feel better, nerf that and increase the speed of his harpoon and the movespeed off his W to compensate.
Jerry SeinfeId1 votesidk what you're trying to prove here.
Pyke dies less? To be expected when you compare him to the squishiest characters. Sure janna can stay alive piss easy if she plays to stay alive but sometimes even she needs to take a risk.
Soraka offers relatively little safety to herself, moreso the adc. She brings herself to quite low hp alot. Most engage supports can shit on her easily.
yuumi stats seem whack as hell tbh. no way she doesn't take damage at all or never wins.
all in all you look at one thing in a vacuum. Pyke has great sustain, he still risks dying when he goes in. Honestly just sidestep him and kill him free.
Metal Janna2 votes[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QMEaAQkg,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-07-18T16:06:35.781+0000)
idk what you're trying to prove here.
That he's too safe.
yuumi stats seem whack as hell tbh. no way she doesn't take damage at all or never wins.
Hard to "take alot of damage" when you die after 600 HP's worth. On the rare occasion that she is caught out she dies before racking up much "damage taken". Also the WR is just compared to average for the role. Believe it or not Yuumi is still well below average WR for a support.
all in all you look at one thing in a vacuum. Pyke has great sustain, he still risks dying when he goes in. Honestly just sidestep him and kill him free.
Except that the instant he misses the hook he dashes out of range. Unless your name is Morgana, Lux, or Zyra, you do not have enough CC and damage to lock him down long enough to kill him. Even if you are one of the few champions with long duration hard CC, you have to be able to land that on a very mobile target. He only takes any risk at all by attempting a hook in a small handful of matchups.
Jerry SeinfeId1 votesin that case he's only playing like blitzcrank, naut or thresh who stay quite safe when they miss their hook. He isn't committing to anything so why should he be in danger?
That's like expecting soraka to just die once she misses Q.
honestly don't see how this makes him any safer than yuumi. His getaway options are comparable to janna's and plenty other assassins.
Metal Janna1 votes[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QMEaAQkg,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2019-07-18T22:31:40.326+0000)
in that case he's only playing like blitzcrank, naut or thresh who stay quite safe when they miss their hook. He isn't committing to anything so why should he be in danger?
That's like expecting soraka to just die once she misses Q.
Well, there's more than one way a hook support tries to engage. There's fishing for a hook from max range on whoever is dumb enough to poke their head out from behind the minions... And then there's "going in for the hook" like I said. "Going in for the hook" is when they walk up past the minions to get a clear shot. When Thresh goes in for the hook he stands a good chance of eating my CC and being run down, unless he lands the hook. When Pyke does this he eats my CC and a couple of autos, and then dashes away, taking minor damage that won't stick for more than 30 seconds thanks to his passive, two health pots, and a relic shield.
So a more appropriate analogy would be expecting Soraka to die after she walks up so far that she can drop her silence behind the target and then failing to land the slow on her Q. She usually does. Because going that far in and blowing a spell is committing hard.
Blitzcrank and Nautilus are the same way. They can walk right past the minions, fail the hook, and almost never die as a result. You can guess what I think about the current state of their balance.
Jerry SeinfeId1 votesso thresh who has heaps of peel, which can be used for self peel and usually builds tank is straight up gonna die while all the others get it for free? that doesn't make sense to me.
Every hook champ can hook and unless you're literally putting yourself in a shit position you're not gonna die. this goes for all 4 of em, naut simply due to how tanky he is, blitz cuz his hook is easily the safest, pyke cuz he's slippery (like other assassins) and thresh simply because he can peel and is pretty tanky.
and honestly thresh hook is far easier to hit than blitz/pyke too.
Meep Man1 votesPyke is tankier and has mobility. Of course he'd die less.
