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Can we just revert shen and look at his real pro play problem?

Jerry SeinfeId··44 votes·14,793 views

Why is it fair for LB to just dash at me and i die unless i flash her chain (no point in even trying if it already hit you) or i also have a dash? Why is it fair for rengar to jump on me and kill me in less than a second. But shen's vorpal blade and ki strike are not?

vorpal Blade and ki strike were my favourite parts of shen. I even used build BoTR to duel better with my lane opponent. Now i build BoTR to slightly get the feeling of old Shen back. and that's mainly in aram cuz i don't pick shen anymore. I don't see how these were toxic abilities. Ki strike's animation felt soooo good too. And the man threw swords, not knives or shurikens but actual fricking swords. but what were shen players allowed to keep? well his most iconic parts ofcourse his shield (the frick?), taunt and his ult. I'll admit i like the new dodge zone, but it could have just been added to his old shield. His new Q feels lackluster. His taunt barely changed, just weaker honestly. But atleast it still plays like the old taunt. His ult wasn't even changed like at all. Later there was the target hp mechanic tacked on.

EDIT: When i played old shen i actually felt like i was doing stuff, I was working towards my next ki strike using my shield and auto's. Now i'm just a taunt/ult bot.

So why the fuck did you not change how his ult works at all while reworking him when that's clearly the problem for pro? Did you atleast try limiting it somewhat like you did with Panth/TF? I just don't understand why what i liked most about shen is gone while his ult wasn't even touched. And nothing changed for balance, he's still held back in solo because of pro.

55 Comments

Infernape21 votes

Just get rid of the Q. The spirit sword is a pointless and shitty "gimmick" that was tacked onto Shen for no reason aside from "we need a new Q". It doesn't even feel that great to use.

And I agree with the point on the ult. His ult means he gets gutted on a whim because he's good in competitive with zero effort in trying to rebalance his kit for pro play and casual play.

S0kaX15 votes

Apparently, old shen was obnoxious to play against, but Yasuo Fiora Heimerdinger and many others are fine to play against.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

I don't think anyone of those have a manaless point and click ranged poke which also healed shen on minions

see there is a difference between obnoxious to play against and impossible to win against

you can win against Yasuo or fiora you couldn't win lane against shen, unless the shen was garbage or if you outranged his Q with a ranged champion

S0kaX5 votes

{quoted}

or if you outranged his Q with a ranged champion

Or, you know, play a juggernaut or a mobile champion? And are you really telling me that Old Shen is impossible to win against but it's possible to win against Yasuo or Fiora? What game are you playing? Because it's certainly not League of Legends Let's see, a point and click poke that also healed. That is just brutal. That's just bullshit. Heimerdinger 's turrets that can aa you so you can't dodge them? Nope, completely fine. Yasuo that can easily dash to Shen and counter his poke with its passive? Nope, he's fine too. Fiora that can also parry his poke and even have a chance at stunning him and poking back? That's also fine.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

{quoted}

Or, you know, play a juggernaut or a mobile champion?

how would this save you rofl? he spams his Q which had 4 sec cd and 475 range, point and click 50-150 damage, explain to me how you're going to dodge that damage or deal with the poke+sustain? if you ever engaged on him he still had his 4 sec cd shield, very good base stats (they nerfed it with the rework) his passive which bursted in early game and the cd was reduced with each AA and his E anyway

you can still watch pro play games of old shen to see how bullshit he was as i said, NOBODY HAS RANGED POINT AND CLICK POKE THAT HEALS AND HAS NO MANA COST ON IT

if you can't understand how bullshit this concept is i can't help you

S0kaX2 votes

{quoted}

if you can't understand how bullshit this concept is i can't help you

And if you can't understand that there are champions that make his old kit look weak and in need for buffs then I can't help you either

Jerry SeinfeId10 votes

Fiora has just as much sustain as old shen deals % hp true damage and can easily close in on someone. I don't see how she wouldn't beat him unless she does dumb shit like diving him. They could easily up the healing on attacking the Q'd target and lower the healing it just gives. Making people try to actually fight instead of just sitting back.

fact is Rengar wasn't healthy, neither was leblanc, but they got reverted. I'd take revert shen at 45% winrate over current one at 50% winrate.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jerry SeinfeId,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZcZ59hpZ,comment-id=00020000000000000001,timestamp=2018-08-28T00:51:09.244+0000)

Fiora has just as much sustain as old shen deals % hp true damage and can easily close in on someone

and has mana cost and her sustain can be countered by playing around vitals

. I don't see how she wouldn't beat him unless she does dumb shit like diving him.

easy he himself can play agressive whenever the vitals are not in a bad spot, then he can shield whatever damage she has while pressing his point and click poke button

fact is Rengar wasn't healthy, neither was leblanc, but they got reverted. I'd take revert shen at 45% winrate over current one at 50% winrate.

Those rework made them MORE unhealthy, which is why it got reworked shen's rework made him healthier

and if you're not happy deal with it because shen isn't going to get reverted that for sure nobody except a vocal minority liked old shen's Q, it was the epitome of cancer league ever had at least that's how i will remember it

someone mentioned vladimir's Q, yea it was as cancer as vladimir's Q which also needs a rework

hhaavviikk1 votes

{quoted}

and has mana cost and her sustain can be countered by playing around vitals

easy he himself can play agressive whenever the vitals are not in a bad spot, then he can shield whatever damage she has while pressing his point and click poke button

Those rework made them MORE unhealthy, which is why it got reworked shen's rework made him healthier

and if you're not happy deal with it because shen isn't going to get reverted that for sure nobody except a vocal minority liked old shen's Q, it was the epitome of cancer league ever had at least that's how i will remember it

someone mentioned vladimir's Q, yea it was as cancer as vladimir's Q which also needs a rework

fiora has mana costs? that's news to me. the only way to ''play around'' fiora's vitals is tobe lucky and have her vital spawn behind you

she can just back off and re apply the vitals, 3/4 times it's a good vital so odds are in her favour.

the leblanc rework made her MORE healthy because her burst got delayed, however pretty much 99% of the leblanc mains hated her because turns out, having to wait nearly 2 seconds as an assassin to be able to kill someone is a bad idea because that's enough time for the other person to kill you instead.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

{quoted}

fiora has mana costs? that's news to me.

welcome to league then

the only way to ''play around'' fiora's vitals is tobe lucky and have her vital spawn behind you

that's better than point and click poke and No, the other way is to play on different side of the lane depending on where the vital is if the vital is in front of you then yea i completly agree you can't do anything.

she can just back off and re apply the vitals, 3/4 times it's a good vital so odds are in her favour.

I wonder why she's garbage right now and lose lane to almost anyone? oh yea right, because it's not 3/4 of the times but like 1/4 of the times and the other times she gets fucked by jax, irelia, or any current bruiser

the leblanc rework made her MORE healthy because her burst got delayed,

Doesn't matter how delayed she was, she could just poke you with Q in lane as the mana cost was low, then whenever you got hit by her E you became her bitch, and the delay didn't save you where is the healthy gameplay here, where is the thing that made her balanced when she was 100% pick/ban in pro (except when riot trashed her) while now she works without being overbearing in pro and in the hands of experienced leblanc players?

however pretty much 99% of the leblanc mains hated her because turns out, having to wait nearly 2 seconds as an assassin >to be able to kill someone is a bad idea because that's enough time for the other person to kill you instead.

99% of leblanc mains+ very good players like Faker and Crown?

yea pretty much

zaxscat6 votes

cough cough Vladimir point and click ranged heal poke that even works on minons and just try to jump a good one.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

oh yea you're right on this one

and we all know how vlad is healthy right? said no one ever

though there is a difference since vlad's Q doesn't have 4 sec cd at lvl 1.

3TWarrior1 votes

heimerdinger sunk quite a bit after his rework. his turrets got a lot weaker and melee could walk right up to them and kill them in a single auto

Lakega9 votes

Old shen was definetly better, more viable in many ways. You could build a tanky AP shen, Bruiser Shen, full tank shen. He had many roles, and situations he could fill for a team.

THe new shen is just.. trash.. Over all he's good as a champ, but boring as fuck to play as, with nothing special about him.

Takahashi936 votes

Please give shen a ranged Q

Vztah5 votes

Amen.

Bârd5 votes

The new W is pretty sick, and the new energy refund mechanic is nice.

The spirit sword, however, can go.

Killer of Night93 votes

It sound drastic but i think this nerf will give to shen more way to be balanced around soloQ Make his ult from global to area range? so at least if he wanted to protect ally he need to be close to them. Or make that his range Cover (Lane-Jungle lv 6, Lane-Lane lv 11. Global lv 16). They could buff everything on his kit by this nerf. Issue : Mid shen could become a thing since before lv 16 he has no way to help the bot laner, while at the same time support shen became more meaningful than top shen. If this is going to happen reduce the mr of shen and up his mr by lv and up his W cd then add a AD ratio on his Q or E since most shen player doesn't like to build ap and most of them grab item 3078 item 3748.

Jerry SeinfeId5 votes

Yeah, that's what i meant by limiting it like panth and tf. I feel like that would keep the feel of shen while making him less of an lcs pick. Still his overall gameplay aside from his ult feels pretty bad compared to pre revert.

French Courtesan3 votes

What you liked most about shen was poking champions without sustain out of lane with point click ability, on champion with no mana. Shen was literally pantheon that sacrifices damage of his spear for infinite amount of spears.

Leetri2 votes

People tend to like the most unhealthy aspects of old kits because they're unfair to your advantage. Just look at how many Poppy mains miss her old zero counterplay ult.

Jerry SeinfeId2 votes

I used to play alot of poppy, never cared for her ult. Her Q is what i miss but the current one does the job. Unlike shen's current Q.

Poppy's old Q was an AP nuke that scaled off of ad, current one scales off of enemy hp and does quite some damage if both hits land. But in the end the Q does about the same thing.

Shen's current Q has nothing to do with his old Q.

French Courtesan2 votes

You know that changing parts of kits of champions is the point of rework right? Especially the parts that had no counter play and were generally unhealthy and boring. Dont get me wrong I totaly understand why would anyone love to keep those toxic braindead parts of the kit instead of having actually healthy and diverse kit, I used to love playing old ad sion that lifestealed 1v5 and got to 3k hp with full crit build, but I do understand the reason why he was reworked.

Leetri1 votes

When Tryndamere is eventually reworked you're gonna have people flocking the boards saying how bullshit it is that Tryndamere no longer can ult while CC'd or how they miss him having a chance to crit from level 1 or how it's dumb that he can't mindlessly split push and just ult and spin away if it goes pear shaped. No matter how unhealthy something is for the game you're gonna have people that are upset when it's removed. I don't think Riot wants a ranged infinite sustain tool on a tank toplaner to be a thing anymore.

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

Oh good i thought i actually liked dueling in lane and not having to back instantly while my enemy laner who is allowed to have sustain just stays. Or that he threw full blown swords, or that managing ki strike felt good, WHILE DUELING.

Good thing you made it clear what I liked about this champ how could i have been so confused.

French Courtesan2 votes

np mate, glad to help.

3TWarrior2 votes

who could get poked that badly by shen's Q? it did only physical damage and if you were in range to use it, you were in range to get hit by ANY opposing melee champion's engage

shen would more commonly use it to last hit minions anyway because his CS'ing was terrible and anyone in the game could out-pace him at it

French Courtesan2 votes

{quoted}

who could get poked that badly by shen's Q?

Darius when he didnt have heal, Garen forbiding him from using his passive at all, Jax Riven MonkeyKing

it did only physical damage and if you were in range to use it,

MAGICAL DAMAGE. And if you dont understand why MAGICAL DAMAGE on top lane is a problem, honestly there is no point in discussion. Its base damage was 240. 240 is more than pantheons Q base damage. I get it pantheon scales with AD, but honestly 240 is way too much for something so spammable and uninteractive. Malphites Q has 30 more damage but it takes 3 of them and you are out of lane. Shen can cast more than 3 of them without any mana cost and lower cooldown. Especially now with aery or comet, it would literally break shen in any melee match up.

you were in range to get hit by ANY opposing melee champion's engage

Engaging on tank is probably the dumbest idea you could have. Not only he can dash away, he can shield himself instantly, and get literally free pot worth of hp regen from hitting you once. This shit doesnt sound all that cool, untill you realize that old fioras passive functioned same and it was heavily nerfed. Shit like this stacks up over time, its literally like it was with aatrox and his healing nerfed from E. Every time you traded with shen, even though you won by 100 hp on lvl 3, 10 seconds later you lost the trade. And all he did was Q a minion and slap it few times. And all of this was in era when champions actually built lane sustain, everyone had 3% life steal runes. Today noone ever goes life steal as first item and look how well are champions with high base health regen doing. Mundo being unbeatable, Garen hitting 52% win rate in diamond solo que, cho gath being unstoppable. Shen not only needed that rework, reverting him at this point would be literally breaking top lane.

shen would more commonly use it to last hit minions anyway because his CS'ing was terrible and anyone in the game could out-pace him at it

Not at all. Shen would Q you any opportunity he had. And its not like he didnt have any, during old shen era, stuff like urgot top, quinn top, gangplank did not exist. Only full melee champions and trust me, 240 magic damage every 4 seconds is gona push you of lane very quickly. Especially if you cant even counter it.

plus I forgot to mention one important thing, even now shen is used in pro play as support for his peel and utility. Reverting shen would not only break his top lane because of poke, he would be even better as support for the amount of free healing he would provide from his Q. So not only he would be instantly nerfed right after revert, you are potentially looking at another ryze.

Need Gold 4 Tent2 votes

What they should have done IMO:

The new W is far better than the old W and allows for some skill expression. I would've reduced the dodge zone radius by a third and made it around Shen instead. That way, when allies see a Shen ulting on an ADC about to be assassinated, everyone groups on him to protect him and Shen appears with an anti-AA zone that protects them all on top of that. It also allows for skill expression in the sense that Shen can now choose whether or not to dive the backline and use his zone selfishly or hurry back to protect his carries.

Vorpal blade was honestly very bland. It was a little toxic even, a point and click poke that didn't accomplish much apart from that (maybe a bit of sustain). However, the new one is even worse. They needed to change this, but they didn't do it right.

I LOVED KI STRIKE. BRING IT BACK PLEASE.

PaffWasTaken2 votes

What I really really miss is the reduced damage from taunted enemies. Today, unless you use your W right away, you are actually PUNISHED for taunting the enemy since he'll do just about the same amount of damage as usual unless he's casting-focused

SettDownShutUp2 votes

I hate the spirit sword so much. It's a tacked on mechanic that no one asked for. It LOOKS aweful, it feels aweful.

Herlgar2 votes

I just don't understand the point of the spirit sword. It's just a gimmick that adds an annoying delay to his Q and E.

Nhifu1 votes

Leblancs actually very weak right now, because of so many supports and champs that run Luden's + poke completely deny Leblanc's ability to even engage in fights.

But he's essentially outclassed by Xin Zhao's ultimate, except he can play in the top lane with a added bonus of being very good with roam teams (Lee sin) and is great with AOE comps (Brand / Annie)

Mid and Jungle (Aurelion Sol etc) are good champs to play with.

Jerry SeinfeId22 votes

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/current/diamond/plus/champion/Leblanc/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DG5MfbXhnu4

Maquiavélico1 votes

Never played old Shen but let me say this:

This Shen is way strong, even with many nerfs in a row he's still viable as toplaner if you want to secure botlane with R (if not there are better toplaners).

Easy trade against many meta toplaners, limitless ultimate if you take Domination (a must as secundary for me), easy engage/disengage for one or two targets and hard tank options with passive.

He is not that bad. Worse than S7 Shen but still strong as toplaner and way better than support. The only thing they need to rework is his ultimate, giving him limits, CD or less shield so they can make his numbers better, or stop nerfing him.

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

that's not the point. the current shen is just boring as hell to play compared to old shen

Maquiavélico1 votes

For you... I enjoy so much playing him and know many players on r/Shen and my club that love the actual Shen

Jerry SeinfeId1 votes

you just told me you never played old shen. you can't tell me current shen is more fun if you've never played the old one. If you started maining him after rework then you're obviously gonna like him.

thing is his playstyle only lost stuff and didn't gain anything new.

I love shen, he's one of my favourite characters in this game, but playing him legit makes me feel sad.

Ardond1 votes

Sorry but I really don't understand the complaint here. You appear to be complaining about how they removed his old passive and q, but because you liked dealing damage, when Shen was and is currently a tank. The Shen update took him from a bog standard point and click tank with a shield to something a little more flashy and built around team defense and peal, which sounds fine to me. League at that point didn't really have a good top lane peal character and just because a few people think that it doesn't work in the current meta isn't really a reason to revert a champion that has a kit that works fine for what it wants to do as a tank.

Also just saying but that update happened a while ago, longer then the reworks you are comparing it to, it probably won't happen just because it's been so long.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Totally agree, his kestrike and vorpal balde were easily the most statsifying parts of his kit, and some of the most statisfying abillities in the whole game. The combination of sound, animation and burst made keystrike really feel great and like a high impact moment, and playing around it's CD was fun. It's AS-scaling also promoted off-builts like Wit's End, BotrK or Trinity.

And Vorpalblade was a asome tool. Maybe the raw harras damage could have been tuned down in favour of some bonus for attacking the tagged target so he wouldn't bully other melees in lane with the consitent ranged spam, but throwing his swords was fun, it helped alot csing in hard matchups, and the healing mechanic on it was pure awsome and a great team utillity that wasn't just more CC. The combination of his olw and Q also allowed Ap-offbuilts to actually work. Now it's basically titanic+fulltank every game...

The reason he's an balance issue is and always was his ult, consuming to much of his total powerbudget and forceing his basekit to be somewhat lackluster. Current Ryze has the same issues and GP remains an abomination for similar reasons

3TWarrior1 votes

well, i'd have to argue against gangplank. His ult wasn't really a problem before. It could be a nuisance if you caught an opponent while they were weak, but he did not scale as quickly. I'm not sure if he would have been a problem even with his new ultimate, which could have given people some incentive to play him

what his problem is now though is that he's a lane-bully with his barrels, able to force engages at any time he wants because you can't get near them without taking an instant blast to the face and their zone control turns him into an almost guaranteed pro-pick

the only top laner that probably has more lane-bully nature than the new gangplank is probably Jayce or the new aatrox

old mordekaiser would have topped him, but that was literally his only job: crushing his lane opponent and being around otherwise as either a splitpusher or a moving castle that never reaches its target until the fight is almost over

Maquiavélico2 votes

Spamming a point-and-click ability without mana to deal damage is just unhealthy.

Sire Hippington1 votes

so every ranged champion is just unhealthy?

Cause that's basically what ranged AAs come to...

Maquiavélico1 votes

Of course because AA and abilities are the same thing

Sigh

Sire Hippington1 votes

since the minion agro changes, not really, exept that his Q actually has some cd and costs energie unlike AAs

Sektah1 votes

Theres a lot of champs who need to be reverted to a more balanced game sense.... they update just for the sake of updating

SweedishGunner1 votes

God I'd love a Shen revert, used to be my go to top laner but the rework was horrible and I've abandoned him completely.

Andrey03451 votes

That flying sword won't be forgotten. Best ability in the game that was ever created.

Rıots Bad Client1 votes

Riot has always favoritised Offense over Defense.

Its why if a champion is to safe, they buff the damage and nerf the defense. Even if that defense makes them what they are. Things like Rammus defense curl, and tahm Eat.

ilts Because its not 'Fun' To get Kill Blocked by tahm eating, or a Shen Global ult. But it IS fun to 1 shot someone.

For the Shen thing. I think it was They Needed him to have something different in his kit as adjusting the numbers would only break him. So they nerf the Global teleport and maybe taunt in favor for the utility of his W.

Juke For Jesus1 votes

Hear, hear. I miss old Shen man. I have so many games on him and I just wish they'd rework him again.

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