In my opinion Infinity Edge is now a noob trap and is ridiculously underpowered

yangus Beef·Jun 19, 2018·2 votes·1,438 views

Hypothetical glass cannon full crit build ( ) currently does less than 1k dps at level 18 on Tristana... that is absolute dogshit. However, a build like ( or ) consistently does over 2k dps... By the simple act of removing , I more than double my damage, my sustain, and arguably triple my survivability... Moreover, the latter build actually costs less , so not only am I doing more damage, but I'm also being incredibly more efficient with opportunity costs.

17 Comments

nuclearwarpotatoJun 19, 20186 votes

Are you doing this in the practice tool on a practice dummy? You need to be careful when comparing dps/damage from build with %hp items like item 3153 because the practice dummies have crazy amounts of health so when you add these items into a build it drastically inflates the damage.

Note: you can tell if this is the case by checking not only the dps on full hp dummy but on a almost no hp dummy. I tried this and the blade passive is pretty much counting for over 1000 dps on the full hp dummy.

edit: I went further and created a build trading out item 3153 for items that give the same stats to determine the true effect of the % hp passive. Since you bought item 3047 in the second build they are not important for keeping the same damage. I broke the blade down into 2 items that give the same stats. currently gives 40 ad and 25% AS so I bought 2 items that give those stats alone. The build became item 3026 item 1043 item 3046 item 3085 item 3036 item 3072 . The Guardian Angel + Recurve bow give the same stats as BOTRK but without the on hit passive(recurve bow does have a 15 damage on hit but this is negligible when we are discussing 1k damage builds). The dps for this build was an average of around 730.
This shows how skewed image numbers can become on these 10000 hp dummies.(Something else to note is that the higher the armor of a target the more efficient the IE build becomes.)

Obviously the passive on BOTRK is part of what you buy it for so you can't completely disregard it but the damage increase on a 4k hp tank at full hp is 320 before resistances and only on the first hit(its current hp so the damage is lower at lower hp percentages). but this still doesn't put it above the first build in dps.

That being said BOTRK is meant as an HP tank killer so on tanks with over 4k hp it will be doing more damage than the first build. But if we are really trying to optimize the fps against that huge tank trading out that item 3072 for an item 3031 increases our dps by around 300 (this is still the number before the BOTRK on hit passive is added in). This is a more efficient build while costing only 100 more gold(IE is 100 more gold than BT and we already have lifestveal from BOTRK).

TL;DR Be careful when dealing with %hp builds in the training tool. There are ways to isolate the effects of them but without proper precautions they can be very misleading.

Despìca BìllJun 19, 20181 votes

...I did not know this, and now I feel stupid for not checking. I kept wondering why all my on-hit builds weren't panning out.

nuclearwarpotatoJun 19, 20181 votes

Yea I found it out testing out different builds and I kept wondering why adding just item 3153 or item 3151 was skyrocketing my dps.

Despìca BìllJun 20, 20181 votes

It'd be really nice to have a more formal testing sandbox. Practice Mode was a big step in the right direction, but there are so many things it doesn't cover. You can't even spawn Barons when you want.

nuclearwarpotatoJun 20, 20181 votes

I completely agree. It is a very useful tool already but there are some great things that could improve lit like the barons you mentioned. Something I really want is the ability to change the stats of the dummies or the ability to add a friend to it.

Despìca BìllJun 20, 20181 votes

Yeah, that'd make a huge difference. Or add gold, levels, and items for bots. It's hard to get an accurate understanding of a build's potential when you're fighting a Garen bot 6 levels behind with one item for the whole game.

yangus BeefJun 19, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Are you doing this in the practice tool on a practice dummy? You need to be careful when comparing dps/damage from build with %hp items like because the practice dummies have crazy amounts of health so when you add these items into a build it drastically inflates the damage.

Note: you can tell if this is the case by checking not only the dps on full hp dummy but on a almost no hp dummy. I tried this and the blade passive is pretty much counting for over 1000 dps on the full hp dummy.

edit: I went further and created a build trading out for items that give the same stats to determine the true effect of the % hp passive. Since you bought in the second build they are not important for keeping the same damage. I broke the blade down into 2 items that give the same stats. currently gives 40 ad and 25% AS so I bought 2 items that give those stats alone. The build became . The Guardian Angel + Recurve bow give the same stats as BOTRK but without the on hit passive(recurve bow does have a 15 damage on hit but this is negligible when we are discussing 1k damage builds). The dps for this build was an average of around 730.
This shows how skewed image numbers can become on these 10000 hp dummies.(Something else to note is that the higher the armor of a target the more efficient the IE build becomes.)

Obviously the passive on BOTRK is part of what you buy it for so you can't completely disregard it but the damage increase on a 4k hp tank at full hp is 320 before resistances and only on the first hit(its current hp so the damage is lower at lower hp percentages). but this still doesn't put it above the first build in dps.

That being said BOTRK is meant as an HP tank killer so on tanks with over 4k hp it will be doing more damage than the first build. But if we are really trying to optimize the fps against that huge tank trading out that for an increases our dps by around 300 (this is still the number before the BOTRK on hit passive is added in). This is a more efficient build while costing only 100 more gold(IE is 100 more gold than BT and we already have lifestveal from BOTRK).

TL;DR Be careful when dealing with %hp builds in the training tool. There are ways to isolate the effects of them but without proper precautions they can be very misleading.

It does more damage when the practice dummy has 0 hp as well. At zero hp the damage is about 1.6k, while obviously the crit build damage is the same. However I actually feel that it is unfair to BOTRK to only take it into account w/ a target w/ 0 hp, as its passive is where half of its damage is coming from.

nuclearwarpotatoJun 19, 20181 votes

Are you sure about that? Did you have elder drake or infernals? I ask this because when i tested this I got a much lower dps than to you so Im wondering what you had different that wasn't listed.

And regarding the BOTRK passive I included a small paragraph as to what the damage actually would be (see the one that starts with the word obviously). I just wanted to isolate how much the passive was inflating the damage numbers (Note: it was increasing them by a HUGE margin).

yangus BeefJun 20, 20181 votes

I used both e and q abilities, and for the crit I only took the max damage and for BOTRK I took both the max and min damage. I used both abilities because I wanted to find a build that worked for Tristana; the above finding were simply tangencies.

nuclearwarpotatoJun 21, 20181 votes

In all of my trials I made sure to always have Q active. Testing with Using E didn't change DPS by much at all. I assumed this was because her E interrupts the continuous stream of autos.

So after further testing (realizing I didn't have alacrity all the way stacked up, Note this didn't change the dps by much even when I made sure to stack it up all they way as it was the same increase for both.). I think I found where you are getting the difference in DPS. Based off of your comment you are taking the average of the dps for the max and min for BOTRK build which is still heavily skewed because that average would be around 5K hp which is very unrealistic unless you are fighting someone who will always be full health at 5k hp. That value would only be true if your target was somehow healing back to full hp at the same speed at which you are damaging them. Remember that the passive damage from BOTRK is current HP not max. This means that while it does a certain amount at one value it will do less at lower values.

During my original testing I was using fleet footwork. I conducted trials using PTA which resulted in similar results raising both DPS numbers to a little below 1100.

If it is not one of these then I do not have an explanation as to why your numbers are different by around 600 damage.

Kurt HyzanJun 19, 20181 votes

Because it simply became the AD version of item 3089 . Don't rush it, build it once you have at least 2 complete items

AcanthusJun 19, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kurt Hyzan,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEUGTd6L,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-06-19T16:08:01.742+0000)

Because it simply became the AD version of . Don't rush it, build it once you have at least 2 complete items

I would say it's more like item 3036 now. Sure, it doubles your crit chance, but all completed crit items are 30% anyway, so you're giving up another passive that would help more against non-armored champions like anything made out of item 2015 or group fights/wave clearing like item 3085 . I would take it after building 2 other crit items because it would bring me up to 100% in addition to giving me the true damage, but the games aren't long enough for builds like that. Basically, I think of it as a fourth item. I actually really don't like the feel of crit carries' power spike though. In nearly all cases, item 3124 's 2-3 item power spike feels more satisfying. And even then, that's if you feel like dealing with the current meta bot.

Miror BJun 19, 20181 votes

I've been building it a ton on my quinn builds alongside stormrazer, to buff the crit procs from that (normally skipping zeal items unless they're like 5-6th). The actual zeal item+IE feels impractical on anything not named tryn for me, as it takes too long to ramp up in this era of 20-25min games.

AzadetheJun 20, 20181 votes

That's an utter fabrication.

ParoeJun 20, 20181 votes

Assuming 300AD... Current, healthy IE: 600+90 true damage Previous IE: 750

Marksmen should be doing DPS - not BPS. The main problem people are having is that IE has lost its crit, so now it feels awkward to buy two zeal items because you overcap your crit. Also, the true damage helps a LOT more against tanks than 250% crit damage does.

Irelia BotJun 20, 20181 votes

IF you actually do the calculations the armor breaking point for when new IE + Zeal item provides more damage is 83.333 armor outside of a few champs like Yasuo. If a target has less you will do less damage than old IE while if they have more armor you do more damage. IN turn the only clear all around nerf is item cost.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qoDNOpodHbYjrrS6kpan1Y8YthpmaOIuPMpvilpOq9g/edit#gid=0

If you are going to calculate damage while including BotRK you need to include the targets health in the calculation. Otherwise it does nothing and if using the test dummy it will give insanely high unrealistic numbers due to the insanely high unrealistic health of them.

yangus BeefJun 20, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZEUGTd6L,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-06-20T01:58:12.917+0000)

IF you actually do the calculations the armor breaking point for when new IE + Zeal item provides more damage is 83.333 armor outside of a few champs like Yasuo. If a target has less you will do less damage than old IE while if they have more armor you do more damage. IN turn the only clear all around nerf is item cost.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qoDNOpodHbYjrrS6kpan1Y8YthpmaOIuPMpvilpOq9g/edit#gid=0

If you are going to calculate damage while including BotRK you need to include the targets health in the calculation. Otherwise it does nothing and if using the test dummy it will give insanely high unrealistic numbers due to the insanely high unrealistic health of them.

My calculations found something a lot different, where it starts being beneficial around 130 armor.