Just admit the mistakes, Riot

For Carthage··62 votes·3,748 views

Look, as a kid you are taught that trying to cover up your mistakes only makes matters worse - you are eventually caught in an endless trail of covering and re-covering and re-re-covering the major cockup you made, and in the end, when you can't keep it up any longer, the result is far worse than if you had just said "Yeah, my bad. I'll fix that."

You've nerfed Syndra. She didn't need a nerf. She is now completely unviable. You've nerfed Fizz, who needed a nerf, but it's pretty clear you've overshot his damage quite a bit to the point that his primary role is no longer his actually viable role (AD Bruiser Fizz is apparently now about the only thing you can reliably build on him). You've given Ahri a power shift that gave her a new identity, but to such an extreme as never seen before (for those who don't know this, the speed boost Ahri gets on her Q throw is a flat 200+ MS at level 1, which is almost unreal in terms of just speed). You are making mistakes left and right and are refusing to concede that maybe, just maybe, the mistake lies in the action you just took rather than something that was already existent in the champ. It's admirable to stick to your guns sometimes. Sure, it shows you're going to judge the merits of your actions on your own and aren't going to be dictated or controlled. That's lovely. But I'm going to take a wild guess and say that, out of the champs that your team plays at Riot, Urgot isn't exactly regularly picked up for that hour or two of mandatory play testing you have every day, or both teams aren't packing a Lee Sin in the jungle and so you wouldn't have an iota of a clue as to what it's like to be an out-of-the-meta champ facing the titan of the jungle. Sometimes you're simply overlooking the parts that, while they aren't played by the vast majority, are played by that small minority that feel the ripples of the impact from your nerfs, and it's because you're not paying them any mind. Well, here we are. We're telling you what's wrong right now. A lot of people here play your game far more in a month than you have time to within a year. And while there are certainly the raging few that will complain about whatever is completely obnoxious to play against (I know I've done it once or twice), when there's post after post after post after post of what is absolutely unbearable in your game, ignoring the advice isn't "sticking to your guns". That is just blatant, stubborn stupidity. And right now, all signs point to the primary problem right now - some very, very, very mobile champs are being overbearing in the context of the game, and what you're doing is bringing the hammer down on champions that are already struggling, trying to bring them into a line that you drew on the opposite end of the spectrum - you are breaking champs by making them unviable, or just straight breaking champs. Before you move to outright commit to something, why don't you take a bit longer time to just hold tight, observe, and see where that change will go? And sometimes the change doesn't work out, and that's unfortunate. But at not point should you feel that you can't just go "Yeah, that's not going to fly. We're going to have to revert for a moment." If you feel that you can't ever do that on something - that you straight just can't revert the changes you made - it's either A) because the champion was more broken before the change and you've made some legitimate progress, or B) you're just trying to sweep what you did away and pretend that it's all fine. It isn't. It isn't all fine. Please own up to your bloody mistakes because you have been making a lot of them lately and are paying them about as much mind as my dog pays mind whenever he piddles on the carpet - clearly you're aware you've done something wrong, but the face you give makes you seem like you just don't want to admit it.

39 Comments

Jamaree30 votes

Reasons like this are why I could never get into game design, while there are people in the community who might know about one side of the situation, there are plenty they don't look after and at time don't really care about overall balance, they only care about what they care about. It isn't as easy as just listening to the forum goers because they aren't the majority, they are the vocal minority.

Case in point, Hashinshin is a heavy advocate for melees, but he doesn't want them balanced, he wants them to outright dominate every other classes. Remember that post he made about Elixir of Iron being nerfed, he didn't point out why, or even give any counter argument, he simply whined saying that Riot plays favorites but ignored the fact that some champions were able to get WELL above the 35% tentacity.

So it is much less sticking to their guns and more about literally not being able to listen to the forums without creating a shit storm. "Oh, they listened to this person's idea, but not mine, da fuck, this champion didn't need buffs, nerfs, etc."

TehNACHO3 votes

*elixir of iron

I remember being in that thread actually. I remember having to explain to somebody that the Elixir of Iron pre nerf had no diminishing returns because the OP didn't mention that.

Jamaree5 votes

{quoted}

*elixir of iron

I remember being in that thread actually. I remember having to explain to somebody that the Elixir of Iron pre nerf had no diminishing returns because the OP didn't mention that.

Thanks and most thread post asking about buffs are like his. "Oh, this needs buffs because XXX is weak." "What about XXX in their kit?" OP doesn't talk about it or acts like it isn't as strong as it is. Balance isn't easy, it really isn't no matter hos much the forums act like it is.

Pinker 105 votes

It's a lot harder when you set the standard to sh*t tier

Tank junglers can't jungle effectively... Let's nerf jungle items They still can't jungle? Let's do it again! Lee/vi/j4 in every game? Those damn jungle items

Fuck it, lets just nerf j4 so his jungle clears are horrid too

While balance is harder than most of us would think, ^ is NOT the proper way to go about it.....

JChaosMaster4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pinker 10,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z9ElU9sP,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-18T16:49:14.473+0000)

It's a lot harder when you set the standard to sh*t tier

Tank junglers can't jungle effectively... Let's nerf jungle items They still can't jungle? Let's do it again! Lee/vi/j4 in every game? Those damn jungle items

Fuck it, lets just nerf j4 so his jungle clears are horrid too

While balance is harder than most of us would think, ^ is NOT the proper way to go about it.....

Thats the best way to define it. You forgot they did the same to support items almost as soon as they were released.

Gigglebytes2 votes

This is really good, but I would like to add that we are not the only boards, all the regions have their own and they're not all saying the same things. Also, they gather data from games that we are playing which in turn helps them decide what to balance.

Jamaree9 votes

I just want people to realize that it isn't as easy as they say and imagine it is.

GloriousKaiser3 votes

Which is why I wish Riot would provide more input on their decisions. Instead of making funny comments in the patch notes and saying: "We want this, we thought this..." they should provide commentary IN THE PBE.

tainteddaze3 votes

{quoted}

Reasons like this are why I could never get into game design, while there are people in the community who might know about one side of the situation, there are plenty they don't look after and at time don't really care about overall balance, they only care about what they care about. It isn't as easy as just listening to the forum goers because they aren't the majority, they are the vocal minority.

Case in point, Hashinshin is a heavy advocate for melees, but he doesn't want them balanced, he wants them to outright dominate every other classes. Remember that post he made about Elixir of Iron being nerfed, he didn't point out why, or even give any counter argument, he simply whined saying that Riot plays favorites but ignored the fact that some champions were able to get WELL above the 35% tentacity.

So it is much less sticking to their guns and more about literally not being able to listen to the forums without creating a shit storm. "Oh, they listened to this person's idea, but not mine, da fuck, this champion didn't need buffs, nerfs, etc."

they only nerfed that item cause fucking irelia stupid ass passive in a overloaded piss shit designed kit that riot created hella long ago and still doesn't fix. Instead they shit out more champions with more overloaded kits to compensate against irelia for she isn't god tier every season instead of reworking her to a new kit design. Its like the rengar rework as a example.

"riot games says" we want rengar to not just 1 shot people from his ult. What happens rengar still one shots people from ult but now he can snare you at a farther distance and can now double snare you to make sure his early game is better then before. Only advantage to rework is he can miss the skill shot that is the only real change that happened to it. But rengar is still a better design then irelia. But this just goes to show you that riot should of been prioritizing reworks instead of shitting out more champions. Poppy should of had a complete rework done already. Example remove passive for new one. Give new ult keep q and e interactions with reduction in mana, change base stats as needed and probably rework w or keep it same depending how rework on passive and ult goes. Bam with new rework do a update to the model and create some new skins for the champion. Look you just created a way to make profit and allowed a existing champion to not be a piece of shit the entire time in the game.

MrBuffington1 votes

The kicker too are the people who complain that Riot doesn't respond, and when a Red does respond, they don't listen to them. Riot has repeatedly said that they overnerfed Syndra and are already restoring a lot of her stun functionality. It's not even a coherent disagreement, a lot of it is just ignorance and idiocy. I also don't know if I could go into game design because this stuff frustrates me to no end, and then I have to put on a professional face and try to deal with this stuff.

DeusVult1 votes

yes, but some people enjoy playing several different champs in several different classes

yet their balance ideas are kicked to the curb since they are low elo scrubs (all high elos play 1 champ)

GloriousKaiser4 votes

I question whether or not it's truly a mistake Riot's not willing to admit or just that they really want to balance the way they do, regardless of non #LC$BIGPLAYZ input.

Nausicäa 4 votes

Recent balance changes have been fucking terrible.

ABlueQuaker4 votes

tbh when Riot is looking to nerf or buff a champion, they should go straight to the top players of that champion. I'd rather a completely biased opinion from someone who knows the champion inside and out, to a slightly-to-moderately biased opinion from some random challenger who just thinks that champion is 'OP' or 'trash'.

E.g. (Hypothetically) Riot looks to nerf Riven. I would rather they ask BoxBox or Best Riven NA than Dyrus or Balls or some other Pro Top Laner. No matter how much they know about playing Top Lane, they still don't know Riven like dedicated Riven mains do.

ABlueQuaker3 votes

Mordekaiser is a perfect example of this. They didn't even consult any of the Top-Level Morde mains before they buffed (nerfed) him on the PBE. They just went ahead and ruined their best and most favorite champion.

qetzel2 votes

Have you checked the most recent PBE patch notes?

ABlueQuaker1 votes

Yes, and I acknowledge that Riot both blatantly ignored dedicated, high-tier Mordekaiser players, then reverted the changes when they realized they shat the bed (not before a whole heap of backlash on the forums first I might ass).

X Frady4 votes

The balance team should have better feedback from their players, since it's US who give them the money they use for God knows what. They either under-nerf a super safe assassin Zed or over-nerf a champ who was giving kinda trouble but was manageable Azir (Did you know Azir has 38% winrate currently? That's the lowest I 've ever seen), and sometimes, they give no nerfs at all to an all-time problematic champion LeeSin (Either he can't see the nerfs or the Balance Team can't see him). This has to stop. They should listen to us since WE are the ones who spend hundreds upon thousands of hours playing this game, and we know what is working and what isn't.

AquariusGine3 votes

Azir is unplayable right now too. I simply can't make him work

Sketchy Mokujin1 votes

I see a lot of Azir's in my Elo dominate their lane and roam and end the game 13/5 maybe because my team couldn't shut them down and complain that he's broken. In his fighting mechanics, sometimes, in his team fights, it is very situational.

Thefriendlyorc1 votes

Anyone with a Dash pre 6 decimates him. Anyone with a blink after that does the same.

Troy2426213 votes

Syndra may not have needed a nerf, but she certainly needs a rework. Her kit design is abysmal, and Riot has already taken a stance against "Disable then kill before the disable wears off," and I can only imagine how they feel about Syndra's long range stun.

Deadliest One3 votes

What i find funny is that Rioters never, ever, EVER comment threads like this. But they comment threads about fan-arts or where people are crying about katarina's nerfs.

We can clearly see their priorities aren't at the good place.

SEKAI2 votes

Well Board is pretty much designed to be a gigantic fest of circlejerks, but you gotta admit, all of those logical qq threads that made their way up to the "Hot" section at least has some truth in each and every single one of them. I for the most part find myself tend to agree to their point of view, or at least see where they are coming from.

Did Riot listen? Probably,

Will Riot act or just maybe, maybe consider the possibility that they are actually wrong in some way (let us just ignore the history of questionable design choices and bizarre balance decisions for the time being)? Probably not, I sure hope they actually start now rather than sooner, we have been waiting for quite some time already.

RoyaiChaos3 votes

Yes, it was completely true that Ahri was nerfed to trash. I'm sorry, but I just can't trust the community with balance at all after that. I feel like the same will happen with the Veigar changes. I personally feel he's actually stronger now because he has more opportunities to stun people and from a safer distance.

Sketchy Mokujin2 votes

Lol. No. Ahri was not nerfed to trash at all. In fact she's 13% better than what she was prior. If they didn't weaken her W damage or lower the range of it or her ultimate, I'd say she got a serious buff. Her orb of deception (her Q) makes for amazing plays that you apparently do not understand. She's granted about 150-200 MS (movement speed) while the orb is motion. When used with her ult she can catch up and run down a lot of weakened targets effectively and end them. Throwing the orb away from you and Spirit Dashing can grant that 150-200 MS for a given 3 seconds which is like a mini homeguard. Basically, my Ahri only became more adorable.

RoyaiChaos1 votes

You missed the sarcasm.

Sketchy Mokujin1 votes

The sarcasm wasn't obvious then. That's the point of sarcasm ._.

RoyaiChaos1 votes

I thought it was obvious enough that Ahri wasn't nerfed.

warpenguin5552 votes

i was gonna call you out for making a whining thread, but after i read it (THANK GOD I DID INSTEAD OF BEING A DUMBO) i kinda agreed with what you were saying

cFlame2 votes

Well said, Rioters should own up to they're mistakes and stop blaming or making excuses for themselves. They completely ignore every and all feedback as to whether or not Veigar or Mordekaiser will be viable in the next patch.

HexTechBomber1 votes

Nerfs and Buffs are always going to be a challenging thing to do, it's never going to be perfect because when you nerf one champ, another steps into position to take the spot light. Yeah Syndra really didn't need a nerf but they are doing their best to fix her hit box so it feels fine and not too wide or not too narrow. Her Q damage early was honestly quite high and strong that she had pretty easy harass; take it from me, I played her the most Season 4. It's okay now but her early game now needs to focus on farming to build up that Q to later level.

Simplicate1 votes

Syndra unviable? Pshh, I don't think you've gone against any GOOD Syndras during this free week.

suicide cereal1 votes

{quoted}

Syndra unviable? Pshh, I don't think you've gone against any GOOD Syndras during this free week.

I feel like that's the thing personally, for some champs it takes more skill, like now I dread seeing a Vi or LeeSin jungle than seeing a Xerath or Heimerdinger midlane, I main support and when I played Vi for the first time I felt like it was really easy to use her kit, wheras playing Lulu or Taric takes more getting used to and practice imo like, we're leaving poor Elise and such over here like item 3070 Elise

Sketchy Mokujin1 votes

I'd like to say that the whole AD Fizz thing...I did that early last season and everyone thought it was stupid, and here it is viable?! That's not fair at all. Only thing I want to complain about that Riot made a mistake in was making Nemesis Draft. Definitely the worst of the worst when it comes to special game modes. As bad as our community is, giving power to the enemy when making your team is probably the worst thing that Riot could do in a champ select. Oh right, my team gets every lane and role a support oriented champ. Despite looking to the positive side, sometimes there is only bad. In Nemesis Draft, there is only bad. Riot please, do not make another game mode like this...at least don't put it on the Rift...do Howling Abyss or...something with a shorter game mode. I have played 4 rounds of it, I won 1 match, and I won't do it anymore.

Mandang01 votes

Assassins were only allowed to rule mid for what, the last year and a half, and I'm supposed to buy the OP's complaint?

When you play the immobile champion that's cringing the entire laning phase because they know they can't hope to win the engage with the Ahri/Fizz/Syndra's of the game, then I'll take your complaint seriously. When you realize that your only option as immobile mage is someone w/ stupid poke range (Xerath), maybe then you'll have a decent viewpoint on all of this...

Borbland1 votes

Balancing a game isn't easy, it's normal they do mistakes.

Ahri wasn't their mistake, they got complains by the community "OMG DFG DELETED, MS BUFF USELESS AHRI NO DAMAGE GG RITO" After the patch "OMG RITO AHRI BROKEN WHAT HAVE YOU DONE ?"

I see alot of people complaining about Veigar and Morde. People only see the damage, Veigar get a range buff on his Q to farm furtther while having a global manacost and CD reduction. But no, the 0.75 makes him useless. Guys, wait until the release of the next patch, same for Morde.

PBE testers are here for a thing: Trying the changes, and they mostly post about it in the PBE forum. People here have few clue (Me too) about how a champ will be after a number change, espacially if they gave addiotnal utility or remove some.

Minrog1 votes

They don't make changes on the PBE from your feedback though. You guys knew Kalista was broken and you gave them feedback and Riot just shipped it broken anyway.

I think the community is smarter than Riot gives us credit for knowing when something is horribly broken and when it's pretty close to being in line with the rest of the game. The problem is that Riot has other factors they are considering besides the game health when they decide to push out their changes. That's not a disconnect you can fix by posting on these boards, because they actually are listening and they just don't GAF.

Champions they've f'ed up (imo):

Shen Volibear Galio Evelynn Twitch Irelia Sona Cassiopeia Kalista Yasuo Zed Fizz Orianna Shyvanna Vladimir Renekton Aatrox Diana Kha'zix Olaf

You know what, I was going to keep going on this list. But I realized that it's like half of the champions they screwed up on. Either they destroyed them because they had a mechanic that was impossible to balance (Shen, Vladimir, Yasuo) or because the character got too popular (Shyvanna, Renekton, Warwick) or because it was badly designed from the start (Zed, Kalista, Volibear).

JChaosMaster1 votes

On a side note which might make the flame worst but they did Own up to the cass Re work as "Not one of are best idea's." SO does that count

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