Are Lucian buffs coming to the pbe?

Violent Hunter·Dec 9, 2016·15 votes·23,667 views

Are you going to add any? He still is underperforming even after Fervor buffs. I've played him some this patch and the same problem he had before is still there. His scaling is horrible. He is strong after BF buy. After that it takes him til 3 items ( ER zeal upgrade and IE anything other than IE and he doesn't have any damage for teamfights in the mid game) to get strong again. As a champion that's suppose to be strong mid game and ok late game this is just plain not right.

70 Comments

RiotMeddlerDec 9, 20169 votes

Agreed, post Fervor buff and Vayne/Twitch nerfs Lucian still looks like he needs some help. We've been testing a couple of different Lucian buffs aimed at giving him some early game strength. Latest set of changes look promising enough that we'll push them to PBE shortly (passive damage starting at 40% and climbing to 60% by 13 instead of 30% climbing to 60% by 16, Q damage to 80-220 from 80-200).

xxxMadLionxxxDec 9, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, post Fervor buff and Vayne/Twitch nerfs Lucian still looks like he needs some help. We've been testing a couple of different Lucian buffs aimed at giving him some early game strength. Latest set of changes look promising enough that we'll push them to PBE shortly (passive damage starting at 40% and climbing to 60% by 13 instead of 30% climbing to 60% by 16, Q damage to 80-220 from 80-200).

Can Lucian W marked targets take additional hybrid damage from his auto attacks? Thats something I would like to see and would provide an incentive for Lucian to land his W.

Dark NephthysDec 9, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, post Fervor buff and Vayne/Twitch nerfs Lucian still looks like he needs some help. We've been testing a couple of different Lucian buffs aimed at giving him some early game strength. Latest set of changes look promising enough that we'll push them to PBE shortly (passive damage starting at 40% and climbing to 60% by 13 instead of 30% climbing to 60% by 16, Q damage to 80-220 from 80-200).

Speaking of ADCs, what is your opinion on Tristana ? I feel she is also some one who might need a little buff as well to help her against the top ADCs. She was suppose to be strong early game, fall off a little mid game and then really strong late game but right now she just feels out classed in all parts of the game. Even the one thing she suppose to have over all over ADCs which is taking towers really doesn't feel as strong as Jinx .

NoforyouDec 9, 201610 votes

Honestly i'd rather have just increasing his AA range to 550. He already does decent amounts of damage but he can't even cs in lane without getting poked to death and can't trade back because he has no range. It's frustrating to play him and not be able to just farm in lane. By the time you get into 500 range to auto trade with someone you are already half hp and die. With the Q range nerf you can't really poke through minions either. I don't think he needs any damage buffs.

NoforyouDec 9, 20164 votes

Coming from someone who mains lucian. I like his playstyle and find him extremely fun to play. I think the main issue is how you can be autoed by a support and ADC with 550 range and you cant auto or even Q poke back. Most of the time i lose is because i have no counter to just getting double poked by the opposing bot lane, not because my damage isn't high enough.

NoforyouDec 9, 20166 votes

I think just allowing him to be in a position to deal damage would be better than just having more damage. It'd also make him alot less frustrating to play

FlashFireXDec 10, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Honestly i'd rather have just increasing his AA range to 550. He already does decent amounts of damage but he can't even cs in lane without getting poked to death and can't trade back because he has no range. It's frustrating to play him and not be able to just farm in lane. By the time you get into 500 range to auto trade with someone you are already half hp and die. With the Q range nerf you can't really poke through minions either. I don't think he needs any damage buffs.

agreed just range increase and maybe a buff on his passive duration

singiel38Dec 11, 20161 votes

Thats why item 3094 exist, but I agree with you, it's not that enough with 1 item because it is activating after 100 stacks which takes some time. I guess with dmg buff instead range he will be op...

AdalvarDec 9, 201612 votes

Have you considered instead shifting power to his W? Because the proposed buffs are simply part of the same cycle that has plagued Lucian since you guys looped off the W AD scaling. Buff and nerf his Q and passive over and over.

It doesn't even have to be returning his AD scaling, but make it so you have a good incentive to land a W, such as an alternate damage source, additional utility or something (maybe make it so Lucian's CD's are reduced by 1 second per auto to W marked targets, so he'd be similar to Ryze as a spell-slinger)

CPT CAPSLOKDec 10, 2016

[deleted]

AdalvarDec 10, 20167 votes

I said "shift" not "buff"...as in move CDR passive out of the E and into the W and make it affect his Q and R.

That way your damage stream becomes consistent and it keeps with his theme of being a spell slinger, while maintaining his current level of moblity an actually increasing his skill floor by making him having to land the W to get the spell weaves through.

ViiLLAiNDec 10, 20167 votes

im sorry meddler but please those buffs wont do a damn thing for lucian

the issue isnt his dmg being bad

his issue is that for a long range adc his dmg is not high enough to compensate for having low range

idk how else to word it but lucian needs a buff to his auto range

maybe 525 i mean come on nid has a 525 aa range why cant lucian and shes alot more mobile then he is

so dont give me he has a free dash as a excuse

his range is shit u gutted it hard then left him to fend for himself in a meta where evberyone has shields cc and infinite mobility

Spice POWAHDec 11, 20162 votes

Riot wants Lucian's identity to be someone who deals lots of damage, but has to get close and use his mobility to stay alive. They nerfed his Q and R range for this reason.

Void ValkonDec 13, 20161 votes

the issue isnt his dmg being bad

his issue is that [...] his dmg is not high enough

Uhm, okay then? Just so you know, graves has even less aa range and still is perfectly fine, so its possible to be low range, high damage and viable at the same time

Pigeon ReformedDec 16, 20164 votes

graves is not an adc thats all

blackfootedfoxDec 10, 20163 votes

What about Jhin? Is it possible to nerf him soon? He's been wrecking in every game I see him so far because of his early game damage and late scaling.

ViiLLAiNDec 10, 20162 votes

he doesnt need nerfs just pick people who can dive him and he has 2 think twice before ulting

FlashFireXDec 10, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, post Fervor buff and Vayne/Twitch nerfs Lucian still looks like he needs some help. We've been testing a couple of different Lucian buffs aimed at giving him some early game strength. Latest set of changes look promising enough that we'll push them to PBE shortly (passive damage starting at 40% and climbing to 60% by 13 instead of 30% climbing to 60% by 16, Q damage to 80-220 from 80-200).

buff his auto attack range by 25/30 and increase the duration on his passive from 3 to 4/5

Puppet33rDec 10, 20163 votes

What about poor forgotten Sivir ? No one even seem to have remembered her throughout this "omg adcs became weak" wave.

AdalvarDec 10, 20162 votes

Sivir is still pretty solid. Riot did overnerf her a bit since they reduce both her teamfighting and 1v1 power and lategame scaling, but she's still a solid utility ADC with a strong lategame.

She's still solid overall

Puppet33rDec 10, 20162 votes

She's ok atm but draven will get a buff, luc will get a buff and she will become just a weird support with waveclear and speed boost who will get bullied in lane by pretty much everyone. Even right now she snowballs nowhere near as hard as some of the meta adcs. I mean Twitch Caitlyn Jinx snowball and any tank/diver unfortunate enought to miss their engage cc will melt. If Sivir snowballs you just get an even better waveclear and slightly better ms boost. Her single target dmg is kind of bad and both Jinx and Twitch are still better at aoe in teamfights + much higher attack range for those teamfights.

DCYOUNG888Dec 10, 20163 votes

What about the Kalista buffs?

RiotMeddlerDec 10, 20165 votes

Watching her performance post Fervor and BotRK buffs at present. Still considering putting the ones we pulled from 6.24 into 7.1, being careful though because she's a tough champ to balance.

AdalvarDec 10, 20161 votes

Is the Kalista rework still on table? And if it is wiil you guys focus on perhaps streamlining some of her multiple passives, redundancy and frustrating elements of her kit? (i.e her 90% AD scaling, reduced attack speed outside of a Oathsworn ally, the cumbersome animations of the Black Spear ritual, the fact that you can only bind to one ally, when now you have things like Taric who can bind to more than one ally at a time, that her E can overpower Smite in objective taking, her)

RiotMeddlerDec 10, 20162 votes

Long term, yes.

EROTIC RAID BOSSDec 10, 20161 votes

How long term and how large a scope areally you guys looking at anyways? Not that you can be too specific but id think she and azir would be good candidates for something like the shyvana or Alistar treatment. I can't imagine you guys think they need more than the equivalent of the mid year mage updates?

Is there any sort of plan for them yet or is it just kind of "sometime we'll do this"?

And what do you see as the specific issues to solve with each? Like too many strengths I get. If you shaved kalista down to her passive is the passive itself something you believe can be fair when tuned better? Ie potentially if she was a late game carry like vayne instead of an early game bully, maybe her hopping wouldn't feel so unfair. If rend did its damage as a bleed instead of instant damage, like talons passive, would that shave off enough of her extra strengths?

If azir didn't have the second dash, making his mobility more standard and largely eliminating the long range picks do you think he still has too many strengths?

CPT CAPSLOKDec 11, 20161 votes

Shouldn't Lucian eventually get a rework, too ? He seems to be pretty hard to balance. I mean whether he kills people when he dash in or he does not. if he does everbody calling him op and if not he is just bad.

DestructoDaveDec 11, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=CPT CAPSLOK,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yq9g7ZoH,comment-id=0003000c0000000000000001,timestamp=2016-12-11T20:30:06.264+0000)

Shouldn't Lucian eventually get a rework, too ? He seems to be pretty hard to balance. I mean whether he kills people when he dash in or he does not. if he does everbody calling him op and if not he is just bad.

He doesnt need a rework, he needs 25-50 range on his AA range, or his Q range back. He was mediocre/middle of the pack with crit build for a long time before the Arpen OPness. I know, because I played him for 2 seasons, and for awhile he was the 2nd lowest win-rate champ in the game on the crit builds.

So, some range buffs would go a long ways in helping him out. But you are right. Hes at a point now, since he no longer has Q range, hes either dash in and kill or hes useless cause has has no pressure without long range Q and with such a low AA range.

A small buff to his AA range in his current form would fix this, but its not looking like he will ever get that. That way he could at least trade and CS without having to dash in. Because once you dash in you are just as you said; you either going to kill someone or take massive trade damage, and at the moment hes the one on the losing end after dashing.

Richard BlowDec 12, 20161 votes

25 maybe, but I remember and presumably you would too if you started in the first half of season 4 what 550 range Lucian was like, and it was awful. He was "good enough" at everything and was picked every single game, and that was before the infinite resetting dashes were added. It was either change him or gut him like a fish. As is I think being a risky champion is wonderful and all he needs is a bit more oomph in his trades, which is what he's getting next patch. It might take one or two more to find the sweet spot but I'm confident there's a point where Lucian does enough damage to feel relevant but isn't also the "generic mobile ADC" again.

DestructoDaveDec 12, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Richard Blow,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Yq9g7ZoH,comment-id=0003000c000000000000000100000000,timestamp=2016-12-12T22:43:42.116+0000)

25 maybe, but I remember and presumably you would too if you started in the first half of season 4 what 550 range Lucian was like, and it was awful. He was "good enough" at everything and was picked every single game, and that was before the infinite resetting dashes were added. It was either change him or gut him like a fish. As is I think being a risky champion is wonderful and all he needs is a bit more oomph in his trades, which is what he's getting next patch. It might take one or two more to find the sweet spot but I'm confident there's a point where Lucian does enough damage to feel relevant but isn't also the "generic mobile ADC" again.

Pretty sure his passive was stupid OP then, his Q was stronger, his ult was longer/stronger, he was an overtuned champ, and there was less going on then. The game has completely changed since then, so have a lot of bot lane champs and metas, and so has lucian. Back then you werent getting completely destroyed by brands and zyras, or getting zoned off creep waves by 5 Cait traps that auto headshot you, etc. The current iteration of Lucian is a complete shell in everything compared to that version.

CPT CAPSLOKDec 13, 20162 votes

I think the Items (BT mostly which gave 100 AD) just were sooo fking good on him due to his super high AD scalings. I mean his Q used to have 120%, his W i believe 60%, his ult without atkspeed like 300% or something crazy like this and his passiv was 50 % at all lvl.

DCYOUNG888Dec 10, 20161 votes

What other buffs are you planning to give Kalista besides the ones pulled from 6.24 assuming that she is still underperforming?

RiotMeddlerDec 10, 20162 votes

The ones pulled from 6.24 would probably be the ones we went with if we buffed her in 7.1.

Zero Skill TankDec 10, 20161 votes

Sticking to the topic, is Jhin a candidate for getting Kalista'd, if he keeps his domination over competitive scene in season 7?

Chromatic EagleDec 13, 20161 votes

I don't think Jhin is as hard to balance as Kalista.

Especially 4UDec 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, post Fervor buff and Vayne/Twitch nerfs Lucian still looks like he needs some help. We've been testing a couple of different Lucian buffs aimed at giving him some early game strength. Latest set of changes look promising enough that we'll push them to PBE shortly (passive damage starting at 40% and climbing to 60% by 13 instead of 30% climbing to 60% by 16, Q damage to 80-220 from 80-200).

or can you guys just revert the nerf that made his Q a lot shorter?

LoopKatDec 10, 20162 votes

Too much power is in Lucian's Q already, please don't more to it.

Why not re-add an AD ratio to W so that it isn't a completely worthless spell, aside from the movement speed buff?

Nico0404Dec 17, 20161 votes

{quoted} Why not re-add an AD ratio to W so that it isn't a completely worthless spell, aside from the movement speed buff?

-Implying that AP Lucian isn't the way to go, the nerve of some people -_- item 3285 item 3100 item 3151 item 3115 item 3124 item 3020

DestructoDaveDec 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, post Fervor buff and Vayne/Twitch nerfs Lucian still looks like he needs some help. We've been testing a couple of different Lucian buffs aimed at giving him some early game strength. Latest set of changes look promising enough that we'll push them to PBE shortly (passive damage starting at 40% and climbing to 60% by 13 instead of 30% climbing to 60% by 16, Q damage to 80-220 from 80-200).

I really dont think these changes are going to fix his problems. He needs his range back on his Q. These changes might help his all-in a bit, but he still gets bullied out as a champion that is supposed to be an early game lane bully. With a short Q now, he has zero protection or harass available to him. Hes always going to lose out to trades when he dashes in; especially when bot lane meta is full of high damage mages and courage of the collosus abusers. You cant even get in range to Q without being in range for a multitude of harass. He doesnt have anything to keep people honest like with his old Q range except praying his support makes plays or he all-ins with a dash. And his all-in is piss poor with the crit build. It wasn't ever good; you would poke people to 75-50% back in the day before Arpen before you went ham.

Its bad when you spend most of the early lane trying to just survive and get CS on a champion that is supposed to be strong early. 10% more damage on his passive isnt going to make him outtrade someone who can get 2 autos off to his 1 becuase of his low range. You are almost always going to take an exit Auto becuase of his 500 range to just about any other ADC. Also, landing Q's to poke people down before you all-in like you used to do on old crit lucian, simply isn't feasible now because its hard to land Qs, much less multiple ones, now that its range is so poor.

I really think some of his nerfs he recieved for the OP arpen items should be re-evaluated. Specifically, his Q range. He needs something besides going feast or famine all-in as protection in lane. The old Q allowed him that.

I mean his AA range is too short nowadays, but I'd take the Q range first to see how he fits. He was like sub 48% back when crit was his build anyways, with a max range Q available and even a max range ult. It wasnt until the OP armor pen that his abilities started to be a problem.

These changes are just going to make him even more binary and feast or famine. You pretty much just go all in all the time or try to survive and piece together cs because he has no poke and with his range his trades nearly end up all-ins anyways.

FlashFireXDec 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Agreed, post Fervor buff and Vayne/Twitch nerfs Lucian still looks like he needs some help. We've been testing a couple of different Lucian buffs aimed at giving him some early game strength. Latest set of changes look promising enough that we'll push them to PBE shortly (passive damage starting at 40% and climbing to 60% by 13 instead of 30% climbing to 60% by 16, Q damage to 80-220 from 80-200).

Lucian is a marksman and has 25 lower range than Viktor ... just sayin

BrainiacOutcastJan 2, 20171 votes

Did the idea of changing Lightslinger's crit interaction ever come up? I really dislike the feel of the half-crit effect it has now. Knowing that crits are only half as good at boosting his main damage tool means crit always feels partially wasted even though a crit heavy build winds up being optimal, and a no-crit build that feels more fitting to his kit is worse by the numbers. I think this could be fixed by giving Lightslinger lower lategame AD scaling but full crit damage, or going the other way and making it non-critting with higher lategame AD scaling. The potential variety from having two distinct types of build would be lost, but I think the fact that the one optimal type of build would feel good to buy would more than make up for that.

A DoorknobDec 9, 20163 votes

I'd focus on nerfing the other adc's that are too strong first before applying buffs to Lucian. By doing so, Lucian may rise indirectly due to having superior early game and may be balanced appropriately without overpowering him. As of right now, the issue isn't lucian is weak, the issue is: hyper carrying adcs are just in a state that is too strong early game and need to be re-adjusted for their purpose.

ViiLLAiNDec 10, 20162 votes

lucian is weak as hell ur crazy lol their isnt any adc thats super strong right now

just ones that snowball hard which to me is perfectly fine

but it becomes a issue where its a instant win cuz someone picked cait or twitch and their is no other adc that can come close to them

A DoorknobDec 10, 20161 votes

I don't question Lucian's weak position right now, I understand he's an a bad state, not necessarily due to removal of flat ad dmg but because of the change Riot did in s6 to compensate for the flat AD build stat that was newly introduce in s6. But the issue I'm trying to show isn't that Lucian is bad, it's that other adcs are doing Lucian job better than Lucian does himself as per said in your 3rd line. By nerfing the proper adcs and their kit, Lucian would most likely see a small rise in his win percentage, not enough to not merit a buff but enough to actually see where he's failing the most and why. As it stands buffing Lucian to keep up with champs like Vayne,Twitch and even Cait with the state that they are in would most likely lead him to becoming busted and as a result other adcs would have to get buffs to compensate which would once again lead to the same issue s6 saw: a huge power creep.

I agree with you on the fact that Lucian is in a bad state right now and requiring a buff. I just do not agree with you by simply buffing him without further adjusting the other adcs that are doing more than they should be doing in the game.

SquiidyDec 14, 20162 votes

the only reason hypercarries feel so strong right now is because there is no one to punish their laning. i think buffing lucian (maybe draven only a lil) would make it so that you have to play really well to get out of lane with an advantage on a hypercarry. the fact that hypercarries are strong when they win lane should not be a problem. that is how they are supposed to perform.

SlashStrikerDec 10, 20162 votes

How champion that are performing bad for 1 or 2 patches get buffs almost instantly but champions that are performing bad for 10 or 20 patches get nothing?

For instance Draven had win rate of 50.5% at patches 6.19, 6.20, 6.21 and now he got 48% win rate and already gets buffs

CPT CAPSLOKDec 10, 20162 votes

There are buffs for him on pbe:

Spinning Axe (Q) bonus damage changed to [flat 30/35/40/45/50 damage + 65/75/85/95/105% of bonus AD] from [45/55/65/75/85% of total AD] Blood Rush (W) mana cost lowered to 40/35/30/25/20 from 40 at all ranks.