Sion's rework is by far the most outstanding reworks i have ever seen

DoFr·Apr 9, 2015·140 votes·25,217 views

i really hope all reworks be done like his

i don't mean in terms of abilities, i mean in terms of theme, you really feel like you're playing an aggressive warrior, a REAL juggernaut, an undead, and his abilities REFLECT that, his quotes ALSO reflect that, like that joke towards urgot (i love those small things) and i absolutely LOVE the interaction between champions whether it's a joke/taunt

so Riot, are all reworks going to follow Sion's Example in terms of following each theme?

188 Comments

I Kill CommiesApr 9, 201524 votes

I agree, I never played sion before the rework but I play him now. Everything about him is awesome.

SaiannaApr 9, 20157 votes

What the hell? How can you say new Sion is better than old if you never played old one?

Old Sion wasn't bad. You could have built him AP or AD. New Sion is nothing more than a meatshield tank.

Lord DusteonApr 9, 201543 votes

{quoted}

What the hell? How can you say new Sion is better than old if you never played old one?

Old Sion wasn't bad. You could have built him AP or AD. New Sion is nothing more than a meatshield tank.

I played old Sion a few times, and no, he was bad as fuck in the worst ways. His lore screamed 'Juggernaut' but his best builds were pure AP (WHY THE FUCK IS THE VICIOUSLY STRONG AND POWERFUL JUGGERNAUT BUILDING LIKE A MAGE AND SHOOTING EYE BEAMS?) or pure AD. Additionally, his gameplay was EXTREMELY binary; as AP he walked up with W, Q'd you, then burst W and walked away. You had no way to counter him outside of never being in range, and Sion was basically useless past 15 minutes or if his opponent bought any MR item. As AD, he literally farmed for 40+ minutes, then waddled into range and autoattack drain tanked and hoped he lived. He had almost no active skills as AD (Shield was useless, stun was only for getting in range, and E+R were both passive effects that buffed his autoattacks) and his entire damage was useless if you had any form of peel. He was a horribly unfocused kit that did not ever satisfy what his lore promised.

Sure, new Sion is extremely different. He's also not a shitty 2 button kit that is either useless past 15 or useless until 40.

LearndingApr 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y5knbWQv,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-04-09T20:13:15.623+0000)

I played old Sion a few times, and no, he was bad as fuck in the worst ways. His lore screamed 'Juggernaut' but his best builds were pure AP (WHY THE FUCK IS THE VICIOUSLY STRONG AND POWERFUL JUGGERNAUT BUILDING LIKE A MAGE AND SHOOTING EYE BEAMS?) or pure AD. Additionally, his gameplay was EXTREMELY binary; as AP he walked up with W, Q'd you, then burst W and walked away. You had no way to counter him outside of never being in range, and Sion was basically useless past 15 minutes or if his opponent bought any MR item. As AD, he literally farmed for 40+ minutes, then waddled into range and autoattack drain tanked and hoped he lived. He had almost no active skills as AD (Shield was useless, stun was only for getting in range, and E+R were both passive effects that buffed his autoattacks) and his entire damage was useless if you had any form of peel. He was a horribly unfocused kit that did not ever satisfy what his lore promised.

Sure, new Sion is extremely different. He's also not a shitty 2 button kit that is either useless past 15 or useless until 40.

Oh, but now having a timed Q with the same exact W and a armor reducing E isn't linear and binary at all? Having a R that is used in the same fashion every time it's cast isn't linear and binary?

At least with the Old Sion his kit could go both ways and he had multiple types of play styles. The new Sion is a complete blowout, and the only reason any of you say he's good is because you've either seen a Pro play it, or you've watched it on Esports.

KaisadiIIaApr 10, 20159 votes

Oh, but now having a timed Q with the same exact W and a armor reducing E isn't linear and binary at all? Having a R that is used in the same fashion every time it's cast isn't linear and binary?

His Q is a really interactive skill. His W lasts less and only needs 2 seconds to be reactivated (iirc), it also scales with his maximum health and with his opponent's maximum health so it's not useless if you aren't building AP. His E is really interactive, too. His R can be used for multiple purposes.

There are a lot of things you can say against Sion, but he is not binary at all.

RiotRiot ScruffyApr 10, 201517 votes

I'm really glad you're enjoying the new Sion as much as we are. We definitely hope to try and build on the learnings from what we did with him for future large champion updates (see poppy, urgot, taric, yorick etc).

The goal is to take the core of what was really resonant and good about the old champion and try to enhance and deliver on it rather than discard. This often doesn't mean that you keep the exact abilities and art details, but everything we make for the updated champion should feed back into that core theme. A coherent and consistent champion leads to the most fun and compelling character.

All of the feedback we get from the community (positive and negative) helps us improve and find inspiration for how to keep elevating LoL to be a more fun and competitive experience.

VenowolfApr 10, 20155 votes

What happen with the Warwick rework?

RiotRiot ScruffyApr 10, 20154 votes

Warwick is not currently getting worked on. Zenonthestoic had some good ideas in the work he did about a year ago and we will definitely pick it back up some day but he's not currently in flight.

TachiApr 10, 20155 votes

That is incredibly disappointing. I can understand Poppy and Taric, but not Urgot and Yorick. I can not wrap my head around why you guys don't feel the need to focus on the original champs before ones that were released a year to two years after them. I understand that their kits need tweaks as well, but why aren't you guys focusing, at least art-wise, on the beta champs? Some of them don't even have splash art updates.

VenowolfApr 10, 20155 votes

Today we celebrate an exactly one year of the "new kit" of Warwick has posted by ZenonTheStoic, IMO a ver nice kit with more interactive playstyle, much better than the actual, finally some way to gank in pre-6, counter gaming for his cancerous ult, not more coward wolf (With this I want to refer when ww figth againts you put your life under 50% and run away thanks to the huge mov spd buff), a really need shield that reduce the damage when ww are auto-supressed, also a very important fact its: a more clearly identity "Draining tank". And the fantaastic oprtunuty to make "cool" plays with the boomerang move (His new tenative active E).

All this time I wait for news about this rewok, specially when WW received the quadra nerf on the 4.21 "Destroy the Wolf" patch, probably one of the most recently HARD OVERNERF champs, I mean:

W - Hunter's Call DURATION 10 seconds ⇒ 6 seconds

R - Infinite Duress TOTAL BASE DAMAGE 250/335/420 magic damage ⇒ 150/250/350 magic damage Cooldown increased to 110 / 90 / 70 seconds from 90 / 80 / 70.

Skirmisher's Sabre STOP IT WARWICK : Basic attacks against a Challenged target deal 17-51 (based on level) true damage on hit ⇒ 60-162 (based on level) true damage over 3 seconds

Enchantment - Devourer MAGIC DAMAGE ON HIT 40 ⇒ 25

All this in the same patch, why so much hate for only one champ, I know he deserve some nerf but not all these at the same time...

So after that HUUUUGEE OVERNERF, I really think that the Warwick rework is ready to show up, I mean after that why I want to use a practically useless champ but has been past 4 months and we don't have news about Warwick rework because the actual state its very poorly.

And yes its "practically useless" a completly overnerf champ that have a main role in the jungle but sadly he can't gank before he reach the lvl 6, I know sounds ironic but its true, but thats its not enough the list its more large:

don't have any AoE damage in his kit
his W AoE buff have lot of hidden power that its completly nocive for the game (40% of the time nerfed in the 4.21 destroy the wolf patch)
his mana values are too high in comparision with his poorly mana pool (750 of max mana and 110 mana cost by one simple Q holyyy sh.... saadly its true)
his ult don't have any counter-play if he see you and you are in his range, he "magycally" appear on you and destroy you without any chance of respond if you are alone, the problem its not being destroying by him, the problem its how the hell I can avoid him?
his ult its a double-edge sword bad design move, if you catch someone else alone: worth, if he its with any other and have a hard cc: bye ww.
his E its a very situational ability that only active its someone near are weak, so yep sometimes can stay "off" by a loooong time.
he can't gank before he reach the lvl 6 (that its so ironic... yeah I know that I say this before but pls he is THE jungler)
Its a Hunter but most of the times he run away cowardly, I really hate that WW uses his massive movement speed to run away, He is suppposed to be the hunter not the prey

And the best that he can do (duel and shreding tanks) received a very massive nerf on the 4.21 "Destroy the Wolf patch" and sadly another items affected by this... Poorly Devourer enhanced :(

Actually he really need to past a huge amount of time stacking devourer to stay revelant in the game, his actual kit have numerous problems and put Warwick on that "bad spot" champs. So now its a very good chance to put the Warwick rework on, he really need to stay in a healthy side, and the ZenonTheStoic rework kit its a good solution for this because much of the core problems have been solved and more important received a very good "playmaking" move like the "Boomerang Wolf". so please ZenonTheStoic put this rework alive again and give us the new Warwick because the actual is a joke, a vagabound wolf dyng slowy in the misery...

PD: The link of the ZenonTheStoic rework kit (IMO a great work for Daniel kLein): http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/232dan/warwick_rework_teaser_e_boomerang_move_block_from/cgsv64r

Stars ShaperApr 10, 20152 votes

And what happened to Mordekaiser rework? It seemed like all was ready (not a good one imo) and then it went away from PBE with no news and no talks... it's been 4 weeks without a single word.

ConnceptApr 10, 20155 votes

Any chance you guys are going to look back at the post-Sion redesigns while you're at it? Karma may have finally become viable but she lost literally everything thematic about her kit in her redesign, mantra is just a binary DPS steroid, you use it whenever it is up to deal your max damage. The whole theme of duality between yin and yang, offense and defense, war and peace were all just flat out removed for yet another poke/zone/utility sparkflinger kit that lends nothing to the characters identity.

RiotRiot ScruffyApr 10, 20156 votes

The possibility of taking a look at champs that we have already reworked in the past is there for sure. Most likely it won't be for a while as there are some other champions with much bigger problems that we hope to solve first.

KingsgraveApr 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The possibility of taking a look at champs that we have already reworked in the past is there for sure. Most likely it won't be for a while as there are some other champions with much bigger problems that we hope to solve first.

What level of rework is Gangplank's?

Is it Ryze level where you change a few skills? Is it Karma level where you change the way almost all skills work but same concept? Is it Sion level where the thematic stays the same but nothing else really remains?

RiotRiot ScruffyApr 10, 20154 votes

It's somewhere between Ryze and Sion I'd say. There are some iconic abilities that we wanted to preserve on GP's kit so it's not quite as big of a change as Sion. Not much concrete info to give out right now but look forward to it, it's gonna be really fun.

KingsgraveApr 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It's somewhere between Ryze and Sion I'd say. There are some iconic abilities that we wanted to preserve on GP's kit so it's not quite as big of a change as Sion. Not much concrete info to give out right now but look forward to it, it's gonna be really fun.

As long as he can still go CritPlank I will love whatever you guys do with him. I feel like if anything that is the most iconic aspect of him. According to Champion.gg in Plat and higher ranked games CritPlank is the most popular way to play him and honestly he is only really fun when he is a Crit based melee carry. I really hope you guys keep this aspect in tact.

Sure if he remains as a Pirate Captain who eats Oranges and doesn't give any fucks that will be fun, but it won't be GP without Crit.

Jet KusanagiApr 10, 20157 votes

Funny. I thought the orange was his most iconic ability.

KingsgraveApr 10, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jet Kusanagi,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y5knbWQv,comment-id=001c000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-10T06:46:49.869+0000)

Funny. I thought the orange was his most iconic ability.

Orange, Q and R are all fairly iconic abilities. His passive and E are lackluster and forgettable and I would love for those to be removed.

Q and W are pretty bland and as long as his R is a global ability I would be fine with it, even if they changed it to a completely different type of ability. I personally would love for them to just give him Kunkka's R from Dota 2.

Q and W should still do what they do now but with more finesse and skill attached to them. I liked the idea of his W being a channel that breathed fire in a cone after the cleanse and heal over time. Q could easily either be a skillshot or switch between range and melee, sword or gun. His Gold mechanic on his Q could easily be a money bag version of Thresh's Souls as his innate Passive.

RiotRiot ScruffyApr 10, 20155 votes

You can sleep easy, critplank will still be a thing.

ConnceptApr 10, 20152 votes

One more question if I may, not sure if you can answer because it does have to do with future content, but also with Xeraths redesign.

Are we going to see another siege-tank champ added to the game to replace Xeraths redesign that removed that theme?

I'm okay with Xerath losing his siege-tanky-ness, the whole "Ascended mage" and "siege tank" hooks never fit together anyway and his siege tank mechanics always felt kind of watered down (though I do think current Xerath could use a little love regardless of that, Ryze and Brand are only two of several examples that feel like they fit the 'overwhelmingly powerful mage' shtick better than Xerath does.)

But that playstyle of sieging an enemy with powerful ranged AoE at the cost of all mobility is one I desperately want to play with in game, and champs are being released so infrequently these days I'm afraid I'm going to be old and gray before I see it happen. :-/

ConnceptApr 10, 20152 votes

There is hope! :D Thank-you.

CuixApr 10, 20152 votes

It has happened before. Soraka, Kayle, and Ryze have gotten significant changes more than once, and iirc Taric's upcoming rework will put him on that list, too. Really hoping Cass gets a second rework, and Karma would be nice to see but less likely. They really like what they replaced her with.

Dr EasterApr 10, 20152 votes

Any idea how Poppy will be? I really enjoy playing her as tank, thanks to runes I can compensate her lack of MR/l. But she still sufer due to less hp compared to other champions I can use the same build like Irelia and Vi. Wish she could be a Figther/Tank instead of an assassin. She really needs a VU too. D:

DoFrApr 10, 20152 votes

a Rioter on my post? oh wow, neat.

TendrianApr 11, 20152 votes

The goal is to take the core of what was really resonant and good about the old champion and try to enhance and deliver on it rather than discard.

everything we make for the updated champion should feed back into that core theme. A coherent and consistent champion leads to the most fun and compelling character.

Meanwhile Cassiopeia

RenailleApr 9, 201514 votes

I disagree. The new sion is basically an entirely different champion, not a rework.

The Missing LinkApr 9, 201524 votes

entirely different champion, not a rework.

Which is good. Dont forget prerework sion was a lifesteal-tank or ap-nuker -both unfun to play and play against.

rinsujoApr 9, 201511 votes

There are more than a few Trundle/Karma players who are still upset - justifiably so - for similar reworks. I think the only reason Sion was considered a success is because new Sion fits his old theme as well or better than old Sion, while trundle and karma got their theme reworked as well. It's a fine line.

ItsStoutApr 9, 20151 votes

The thing is, Trundle's theme didn't make sense in the context of the lore at ALL, and Karma's issue with her gameplay led her to be entirely team skill reliant. Not to mention the modern ones are still INTRESTING at the least.

GorgiolioApr 9, 20155 votes

Please explain how Trundle's old lore didn't fit?

NarasimhaApr 10, 20154 votes

It fit, but it was basically a one chapter story. He had no will nor reason to interact with anyone or anything else, so you couldn't really write him into most stories without making a stretch.

blujadajhdjaApr 9, 20153 votes

I don't know much about Karma players, but Trundle players seemed to miss their old lore.

KaisadiIIaApr 10, 20155 votes

I miss lore, in general.

SinlaireApr 10, 20152 votes

daddy. what is Lore? Annie

CharzinApr 10, 20151 votes

Karma's old lore was kind of bland, but Trundle's old lore was really unique and sad. The problem is that with the "he's here for a cure" part, they kind of wrote themselves into a corner where Trundle had no motivation to side with any faction.

But the 'Cursed trolls degeneration' part was great.

RoyaiChaosApr 10, 20154 votes

Trundle's lore was extreemly misunderstood because most people only read the in-game lore and skipped the judgments. If you only read the in-game lore, he seemed like a brave, selfless hero, but in the judgement you find out that in the end he left everyone to die and he hated them all.

Chromatic EagleApr 9, 20153 votes

Well the Old Sion didn't have much of an identity.

PL55Apr 9, 20153 votes

A champion relaunch?

AuryielApr 9, 201510 votes

item 3070 Cassiopeia

CanastusApr 10, 201510 votes

It's too bad they absolutely missed the target with the Cass rework. There's nothing snakelike about her gameplay at all. Just thinking about it still makes me raging mad.

Her poison alone deals no damage (so much for that poison mage identity) nor does she use her coils in any way besides slithering. So much wasted potential, and such a terrible visual update. Rest in peace, my beloved Desperada skin.

I'll never forgive them for this. Her rework easily was among the worst in the entire history of this game with almost zero interaction between the guy in charge (Stashu) and those who actually played her before. Anyone even know where the hell that guy's right now?

MinuanoApr 9, 20157 votes

IS THIS WHAT PASSES FOR WAR?!

Lord DusteonApr 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

IS THIS WHAT PASSES FOR WAR?!

LEAVE NO STONE UNBROKEN!

MinuanoApr 9, 20154 votes

YOU CAN'T EVEN SCRATCH ME!

Lord DusteonApr 9, 20154 votes

{quoted}

YOU CAN'T EVEN SCRATCH ME!

I FEEL NO PAIN!

junglerboy16Apr 9, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Dusteon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Y5knbWQv,comment-id=0009000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-09T21:15:07.887+0000)

I FEEL NO PAIN!

COOOOWWAAARRRDS!

LittleBlastApr 9, 20157 votes

Uh, Urgot... we cant hang out anymore. Im cool now.

ModAcademy KaynApr 9, 20153 votes

Eve and Poppy are getting "Sion-Class reworks" as quoted by a Rioter. So those two will hopefully be as cool. Other reworks like Ryze's are smaller since he is not visually offensive and only needs a gameplay change. Another thing is that some champs lack a theme, or at least a noticeable one, and that's why they get reworked.

SaiannaApr 9, 20156 votes

Sion-class means... Totally changing role of a reworked champion? Sion rework is more like creating totally new champion. Only his shield is what's left from old one.

DeloricVIApr 9, 20151 votes

And his hp scaling... and his passive brings back his lifesteal... and he still has a stun....

Baron of BreadApr 9, 20152 votes

He doesn't have a TARGETED stun (or any stun at all actually, only knock ups and a slow). His passive doesn't feel at all like his old ult, so I wouldn't count it (probably because you don't attack as fast, old ult was an AS steroid too).

He went from high AD, lifesteal, team healing bruiser to high CC lockdown and initiation tank. The only things he kept were infinite health and a shield he can detonate to do damage.