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dear riot. point click cc is NOT "unhealthy" or "bad design"

Pandimane··3 votes·1,513 views

i feel in a moba many champion design ideas can exist. theres no set rules. the only rule is making a champion that feels fun and cool to play

you can have point click CC. nothing bad about it. theres nothing wrong if 1-2 skills on a champion have no "counterplay" as long as the other 2 skills do have counterplay

as long as the kit feels cool, feels fun, and is a good theme. fun to play. thats what matters

and then once you have a kit. you just buff/nerf numbers to a 50% winrate. simple as that

also in my view champions are SUPPOSED to feel "unfun" to play against. thats what makes a champion good in my opinion. whats the best kickass most popular most liked champs in league? stuff like yasuo. master yi. vayne. riven. zed. fizz. akali... all the stuff that feels unfun to play against (if the enemy is good with it)

there are champs that feel "fun" to play against. which just means easy. things like maokai (in lane) or garen (in lane) are "easy/fun" to play against.

i hope fiddlesticks isnt reworked too hard. his kit feels super complete and well rounded

some champs had dumb kits. like old sion. old yorick. old poppy. they just felt stupid

but fiddle is a cool kit

10 Comments

Metal Janna2 votes

If that point and click CC means you are stunned for so long that the rest of the kit lands, then the CC = the kit, and therefore requires counterplay.

Hotarµ1 votes

you can have point click CC. nothing bad about it. theres nothing wrong if 1-2 skills on a champion have no "counterplay" as long as the other 2 skills do have counterplay

The problem is that champions with point & click CC are either:

1 - Impossible to balance because they have point & click CC 2 - Only picked/are relevant because of that CC

I also feel the need to mention that yeah, point & clicks really don't have much counterplay. You have two options: Don't get in range of the ability or buy a QSS. There is no dodging, there is no baiting/juking the ability, there is nothing you can do except get hit or don't get hit, and that is not good game design to most people.

as long as the kit feels cool, feels fun, and is a good theme. fun to play. thats what matters

...no, gameplay and health matters as well.

Just because a champion is fun, cool, and has a good theme does not mean they shouldn't be balanced in terms of gameplay. "Fun to play against" is very subjective and shouldn't be weighed as heavily, you could make the argument that it shouldn't be taken into account at all actually.

But League of Legends is a game, the gameplay aspect of it is pretty important.

some champs had dumb kits. like old sion. old yorick. old poppy. they just felt stupid

Care to elaborate? I'm kind of confused, why are old Sion and old Poppy stupid but current Fiddlesticks and current Mundo not stupid?

What specifically makes them less stupid? They were all from the same time period with glaring issues of their own, it sounds like you're just picking and choosing which champions should be changed.

Madjack011 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that champions with point & click CC are either:

1 - Impossible to balance because they have point & click CC 2 - Only picked/are relevant because of that CC

I also feel the need to mention that yeah, point & clicks really don't have much counterplay. You have two options: Don't get in range of the ability or buy a QSS. There is no dodging, there is no baiting/juking the ability, there is nothing you can do except get hit or don't get hit, and that is not good game design to most people.

While I agree I also have to admit: there is nothing more satisfying than stopping a Yas, Akali, Fizz, Irelia, Pyke mid play with a single point&click to the face.

Laughs in Malzahar at every dashing miscreant.

Y E S H U A 1 votes

It’s is ! Point and click abilities are no skill ! If they are packed with hard CC something needs to go! Get fingers or play Tetris everything there is point and click

SEKAI1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Y E S H U A ,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XzEUHefi,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-09-08T04:25:24.466+0000)

It’s is ! Point and click abilities are no skill ! If they are packed with hard CC something needs to go! Get fingers or play Tetris everything there is point and click

Having easy mobility to always act as a get-out-of-jail-free-card and obnoxious to try and pin down without guaranteed factors from point-and-click, isn't skillful either.

Also, point-and-click abilities almost all have significantly shorter range than skillshots barring very specific outliners, and they can't be used in nearly the same extent of poking as skillshots do since it also requires a VISIBLE TARGET meaning it can't be used to scout brushes or fog nor be used on fleeing targets when they hide in brush until you somehow gain vision of them.

Point-and-click in general is both more limiting and more risky to use, and this is to trade for its high reliability.

People just like to bitch about "point-and-click no skill" without actually understanding the tradeoffs between skillshots and point-and-click and what their roles in the game are.

DOUBLE TAPPED E1 votes

This gets downvoted but I make a post about Malz ulti and that also gets downvoted. MAKE UP YOUR MIND PEOPLE!

preternatural1 votes

[{quoted}](name=caffeine abuser,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XzEUHefi,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-09-08T09:33:32.776+0000)

This gets downvoted but I make a post about Malz ulti and that also gets downvoted. MAKE UP YOUR MIND PEOPLE!

malz ulti is just a noob trap.

mzicio1 votes

also in my view champions are SUPPOSED to feel "unfun" to play against. thats what makes a champion good in my opinion.

how about NO.

Champions can be both good and fun to play against. It's a good idea to strive for that when designing new kits.

HeresyHorus1 votes

I am totally fine with changing targeted CC into skillshots if Riot will remove all CC cleanses from ADCs and assassins access, giving all instant cast dashes and blinks a cast time that get canceled if hit by said CC and making ADCs autoes skillshots too.

ThisName1sDumb1 votes

The problem with just trying to buff/ nerf a kit to 50% win rate is that win rates for champs tend to be different at different ELOs. Do you want to balance a champ to a 50% win rate in pro play? Diamond? Silver? Balancing a champ so they're viable but not OP at all levels of play is a tough thing to do

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