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Cassiopeia Rework By The Numbers

Martyrofsand··2 votes·2,439 views

So I have seen a lot of people recently talking about how Cassiopeia does no damage after the rework but I haven't seen a real comparison between the two accounting for her types of play style. That said I'm creating this thread to show the math of just how much damage Cassio did pre-rework when maxing both Q and E starting at 39 AP level 2, then level 6 with 100 AP, level 13 with 500 AP, and then level 18 with 1000 AP. Also note because there is no way to account for the duration of how long Miasma will effect a target I'm excluding it from these calculations.

For reference Old Cassio numbers Q--75 / 115 / 155 / 195 / 235 .8 AP scaling E--50 / 85 / 120 / 155 / 190 .55 AP scaling all ranks R--200 / 325 / 450 .6 AP scaling

Pre-Rework Cassiopeia Q max Level 2 with 39 AP Q--106.2 E---71.45 Q+E = 177.65 Q+Ex2 = 249.1 Q+Ex3 = 320.55

Level 6, 100 AP Q max. Q--235 E--105 R--260 Q+E = 340 Q+Ex2 = 445 Q+Ex3 = 550 Q+Ex3+R = 810

Level 6 100 AP, E Max Q--155 E--175 R--260 Q+E = 330 Q+Ex2 = 505 Q+Ex3 = 680 Q+Ex3+R = 940

Level 13 500 AP both Q and E max rank Q--635 E--465 R--625 Q+E = 1100 Q+Ex2 = 1565 Q+Ex3 = 2030 Q+Ex3+R = 2655

Level 18 1000 AP Q--1035 E--740 R--1050 Q+E = 1775 Q+Ex2 = 2515 Q+Ex3 = 3255 Q+Ex3+R = 4305

For Reference New Cassio Numbers Q--75 / 115 / 155 / 195 / 235 .45 AP scaling E--55 / 80 / 105 / 130 / 155 AP Scaling per level .40 / .45 / .50 / .55 / .60 R--150 / 250 / 350 .50 AP Scaling

New Cassiopeia Level 2 Q--92.55 E--70.6 Q+E = 163.15 Q+Ex2 = 233.75 Q+Ex3 = 304.35 Q+Ex4 = 374.95 Q+Ex5 = 445.55 Q+Ex6 = 516.15

Level 6 100 AP Q Max Q--200 E--95 R--200 Q+E = 295 Q+Ex2 = 390 Q+Ex3 = 485 Q+Ex4 = 580 Q+Ex5 = 675 Q+Ex6 = 770 Q+Ex6+R = 970

Level 6 100 AP E Max Q--120 E--155 R--200 Q+E = 275 Q+Ex2 = 430 Q+Ex3 = 585 Q+Ex4 = 740 Q+Ex5 = 895 Q+Ex6 = 1050 Q+Ex6+R = 1250

Level 13 500 AP Q--460 E--455 R--500 Q+E = 915 Q+Ex2 = 1370 Q+Ex3 = 1825 Q+Ex4 = 2280 Q+Ex5 = 2735 Q+Ex6 = 3190 Q+Ex6+R = 3690

Level 18 1000 AP Q--685 E--755 R--850 Q+E = 1440 Q+Ex2 = 2195 Q+Ex3 = 2950 Q+Ex4 = 3705 Q+Ex5 = 4460 Q+Ex6 = 5215 Q+Ex6+R = 6065

To compare this

Level 2 39 AP Old Cass - 177.65--320.55 damage per Q with damage depending on number of Es hit New Cass - 163.15--516.15 damage per Q with damage depending on number of Es hit

Level 6 100 AP Q max Old Cass - 340--810 damage per Q with damage depending on number of Es hit, final number includes ult. New Cass - 295--970 damage per Q with damage depending on number of Es hit, final number includes ult.

Level 6 100 AP E max Old Cass - 330--940 damage per Q with damage depending on number of Es hit, final number includes ult. New Cass - 275--1250 damage per Q with damage depending on number of Es hit, final number includes ult.

Level 13 500 AP Old Cass - 1100--2655 damage per Q with damage depending on number of Es hit, final number includes ult. New Cass - 915--3690 damage per Q with damage depending on number of Es hit, final number includes ult.

Level 18 1000 AP Old Cass - 1775--4305 damage per Q with damage depending on number of Es hit, final number includes ult. New Cass - 1440--6065 damage per Q with damage depending on number of Es hit, final number includes ult.

There is a re-occurrence at pretty much all levels and amounts of AP. For Twin Fang 1-3 Old Cassio did more damage, however, new Cassio is about to get off 6 Es in the same time old Cass got out 3, this caused her top end damage to be significantly higher at every point of the game. The bottom line is Old Cassio did more damage with less Es, but as long as New Cassio can get at least 4 Es she will out damage the Old Cassio in every 1v1 scenario.

Now having said and done all of this I hope to turn this discussion away from the myths that "New Cassio does no damage" and focus it more on issues of her theme, IE losing her poison mage feel, and also how riot could make some adjustments to her current kit that could enable her to regain that feeling and perhaps make her kit more open to all players. My person opinion right now would be to make the following change to her passive...

Aspect of the Serpent Cassiopeia gains a stack of Aspect of the Serpent for each second that an enemy champion is poisoned, for each poisoned unit that she kills and 1 stack when she hits an enemy with Twin Fang per poison effecting her target up to a max of 400.

This would allow her to gain additional stacks when a target is effected by bother her Q+W but also give her team synergy with Teemo/Singed/Twitch, so for example say a target is effected by Noxious Blast, Miasma, and Twitch's passive Cassio would gain 3 stacks total per E she hits that target with. It's a small change but I feel it could make a big difference in opening up the champion to those who are currently having issues achieving the 400 stacks and it furthers her interactions with poisons, albeit not necessarily in a straight damage/debuff sense that others may be looking for.

17 Comments

Neo Cyrus5 votes

Theoretical mumbo jumbo that doesn't actually occur, all based on your imaginary world. You understand nothing about Cass or what actually happens in a game. You've played Cass in ranked precisely never until a few recent 3v3s as if that means anything.

RiotRiot King Cobra4 votes

No, this is actually pretty straight on.

The classic Cassio harass combo was a Q followed by 3 Twin Fangs in lane. If you were spacing properly you would always be in range for those 3 Twin Fangs. If the opponent backed off you'd move up with the MS boost from Q to get the last one in. If the opponent moved up to all in then maybe you'd get 4. The amount of Twin Fangs you would get off was dependent on the spacing between you and the enemy because of how the reset mechanic worked. The only time you would fail to get 3 Twin Fangs is if the enemy was playing EXTREMELY far back (in which case you're honestly better off maxing Q but that isn't the point of this thread. This thread is comparing single target DPS in common combos) or you were forced to play safe due to jungle pressure.

The reworked Cassiopeia's Twin Fang reset mechanic changed. Since it resets on cast, it is no longer dependent on the spacing between you and the enemy meaning that if you are in range you should EASILY get all 6 Twin Fangs. With the grace period of the reset now being rather large, it's surprisingly easy to get 5-6 in a realistic scenario.

Khell DarkWolf2 votes

Realistically, the numbers do not mean anything.

It doesn't matter if he is trying to prove new cass does more damage.

What is not being factored in is the fact you simply cannot do that type of damage which everyone has been pointing out but which I'll tell you now is because after a rotation of her spells she will have burned all of her mana.

The new passive is the root cause of all the problems.

Its no different then Urgot, after a rotation of your combo you're OOM. Thus you're pigeon holed into plugging up your mana problems before damage even enters the equation.

Which then proliferates more of problem because now you have to catch up in damage through items when your opponent has had time to roam, farm and be ease free from your "Threat".

No one is gonna contest you're a good cass player, but seriously. You're the only one on that wagon that still plays her to think she is great or even viable.

And for that I'm disgusted.

Martyrofsand1 votes

Realistically, the numbers do not mean anything.

It doesn't matter if he is trying to prove new cass does more damage.

What is not being factored in is the fact you simply cannot do that type of damage which everyone has been pointing out but which I'll tell you now is because after a rotation of her spells she will have burned all of her mana.

The new passive is the root cause of all the problems.

Its no different then Urgot, after a rotation of your combo you're OOM. Thus you're pigeon holed into plugging up your mana problems before damage even enters the equation.

Which then proliferates more of problem because now you have to catch up in damage through items when your opponent has had time to roam, farm and be ease free from your "Threat".

No one is gonna contest you're a good cass player, but seriously. You're the only one on that wagon that still plays her to think she is great or even viable.

And for that I'm disgusted.

Actually Cassio won't be as oom as you think. If you compare her old mana costs vs her new ones new Cassio has much more forgiving mana costs...

Old Cassio Q Mana Cost

35 / 45 / 55 / 65 / 75

New Cassio Q Mana Cost

40 / 45 / 50 / 55 / 60

Old Cassio W Mana Cost

70 / 80 / 90 / 100 / 120

New Cassio W Mana Cost

40 / 50 / 60 / 70 / 80

Old Cassio E Mana Costs

50 / 60 / 70 / 80 / 90

New Cassio E Mana Costs

30 / 45 / 60 / 75 / 90

R Mana Cost remains unchanged.

Except for Q ranks 1 and 2, and her E rank 5 Cassio has lower mana costs across the board. The thing people are seeing, but not paying attention to, is that you are not building mana for your laning phase, her mana isn't near as tight at that point as people want to believe, but instead you are building mana for the team fight phase when you won't have a number of minions to regen off of via your E.

The team fight phase is really the only point in which her old passive had a great deal of effect. In small skirmishes they wouldn't last long enough that you to stack it and then benefit from the full 50% mana cost reduction, and in lane you might W+Q to clear wave but you wouldn't spam your spells to clear minions to the point of gaining 5 stacks. The point that Deadly Cadence mattered was the full all out team fights but by the time this is happening you should have Tear/RoA on new Cass and it should be irrelevant.

RiotRiot King Cobra2 votes

I mean, Scarra, Quas, and Voyboy all think Cassio is viable right now. Quas and Voyboy are especially finding success in her.

Let me see if I can reword what I find her problem to be for a lot of people. Be aware this is just what I'm observing and I can be TOTALLY wrong. In my past posts I only suggested that her stacks be lowered or mana costs adjusted - they are rather simple changes that make her laning easier and her late game more attainable. However, I THINK the problem might be something else as well.

Getting the most out of the new Cass requires rather advanced mechanics - proper minion wave control (to maximize mana efficiency it's usually good to look for trades when you have somewhat low health minion to immediately recoup the mana spent after said trade), spacing in lane, map awareness, enemy spell CD awareness, positioning in lane, map awareness, proper vision control, etc.

With old Cass you could casually poke with Q and not care TOO much about any of those things. Thus, people at all ELOs could play her and find relative success with her. Since new Cass needs to max Twin Fang and thus get a bit closer and put herself in more danger, these mechanics become much more important.

Unfortunately, you really only start to find players who truly understand how to utilize ALL of these ideas when you get into very high elo (D1 and above). Thus, high elo Cass mains like myself, Diabound (he changed his name to something else but he's like the #2 Cass in NA), and RIP Cassio are still finding success on Cassiopeia and people like Quas and Voyboy are doing great with her as well.

What this culminates to is that we're able to work make it through laning phase and reach that late game scaling. For a vast majority of players, they're unable to consider ALL of these things and thus getting to that late game carry stage in a reasonable amount of time is a lot more difficult. This is compounded by the fact that Cassi's new playstyle is a bit different than her old one if you used to max Q (which doesn't work anymore). Old habits are hard to break.

Maybe you can simplify this and just said "well that means she's just weak in lane if you have to think about all those things to do decent ". I guess this is true. But what I'm getting at is that if Riot just straight up buffs her without careful consideration as to what they are buffing she can easily become overpowered because her laning ALREADY has the potential to be pretty decent for a late game hypercarry.

I'm not a design expert, but I can see why Riot is taking their time in ensuring that they bring back her poison-y identity (which I'm all for!) AND fine tuning her. The nature of Cassio's kit makes balancing her a very tricky thing. They have to find a way to make her laning phase decent for all players while ensuring that it isn't too good if you really know what you are doing. She already can become an immovable laning machine - not in a bullying sense but in a sustaining sense (think of how frustrating it is when Nasus hits that point where you just can't make him back off anymore because his sustain becomes ridiculous - Cassio, when played optimally basically hits this when she gets those 75 stacks and starts being able to life vamp with Twin Fangs).

Neo Cyrus2 votes

No one agrees, last time you told me it was unlikely that I was regularly landing 4 without being right up into the enemy's face. You made me question myself and think about it but now I clearly remember. No it was never that hard for me, I never had much of an issue landing just 1 less Twin Fang than now, and if they were to flash or escape it's still the same number.

And they WOULD often be easy to bait into W so getting just as many Twin Fangs off as now did happen, on top of that the poison did a shit ton more damage as opposed to the massive nothing it does now.

RiotRiot King Cobra1 votes

And I still say you unlikely hit 4 at max Twin Fang range. Watch any video on Youtube of the pre-rework Cassio and observe how the maximum number of Twin Fangs people get while kiting / moving up - more often than not it's 3 while still being able to get a reset on the last one. Then you reapply Q and continue from there.

In regards to the bait into the W, I've said in multiple posts that old Cass did more damage if she was point blank range so I don't really know where you going with this unless you're just stating it once more. :P

What am I talking about is basic combos / kiting enemies at a distance - not point blank range. In a realistic all-in situation, if you are playing Cass correctly (which I would argue most Cass mains are capable of) you will do more DPS than the old Cassio would have.

Neo Cyrus2 votes

It was rare to stay at the full 700 range, even now it's pretty damn hard to do that. If I had to pull a number out of my ass and guess roughly how long the range was, I'd say roughly 550-600 range which is a lot easier said than done to pull off.

I've almost never seen someone stay max range in a realistic exchange going all in, except when they're running.

Martyrofsand2 votes

Sadly Cobra its becoming more and more clear that people are not interested in factual discussion when it comes to the new Cassio. Thought maybe if I presented enough numerical evidence between the two something reasonable might come from it. Unfortunatly it seems anything that views this new cassio in a positive light gets instantly downvoted into oblivion regardless of the quality of the information presented.

Centuros3 votes

Miasma does 10 damage per second at level 1 right now. That's barely enough to bother minions. You'd have to stand in it for an exceptionally long time to reach the damage of any instant AoE ability.

Martyrofsand2 votes

Miasma does 10 damage per second at level 1 right now. That's barely enough to bother minions.

And in both iterations of Cassio it was used for the slow not the damage.

RiotRiot King Cobra2 votes

Miasma's damage was also kept very low to ensure you could poison low health minions and get Twin Fangs off for mana regen. :^)

Thryale3 votes

actually, with old cass, I would use her W for dmg. Especially if assassins or whatnot try to jump on me, I drop my miasma at my feet and proceed to melt them. The constant ticking of q and w refreshes's liandri's so that you get more ticks than normal.

Drukyul2 votes

I think most changed their criticism from "does less damage" to "does less AOE damage and isn't a lane bully anymore" after the post-rework patch that fixed the Twin Fang cooldown bug. Of course, now you're comparing a bug-fixed champ to a bugged champ, which is hardly fair.

Kiharon2 votes

The problem I have with this math is that it is not correctly accounting for her new passive. If you have the same items at level 13 for both new and old Cass that would have given old Cass 500 AP, you will be in the 525-550 range with new Cass (assuming tier 1 or 2 of passive stacks). Similarly at level 18, you should have 1100-1300 AP with whatever was giving you 1000 AP with old Cass.

When comparing her old and new raw damage numbers, I prefer to think of the passive as increasing the AP ratios instead of AP. My math suggests that until tier 3 of the passive, new Cass does less damage (to slightly more at high AP and # of E's) than old Cass for the same number of E's with any combination of Q, W, and R. As you pointed out, it's easier to hit more E's with new Cass, making the raw numbers harder to compare meaningfully.

Martyrofsand1 votes

The problem I have with this math is that it is not correctly accounting for her new passive. If you have the same items at level 13 for both new and old Cass that would have given old Cass 500 AP, you will be in the 525-550 range with new Cass (assuming tier 1 or 2 of passive stacks). Similarly at level 18, you should have 1100-1300 AP with whatever was giving you 1000 AP with old Cass.

When comparing her old and new raw damage numbers, I prefer to think of the passive as increasing the AP ratios instead of AP. My math suggests that until tier 3 of the passive, new Cass does less damage (to slightly more at high AP and # of E's) than old Cass for the same number of E's with any combination of Q, W, and R. As you pointed out, it's easier to hit more E's with new Cass, making the raw numbers harder to compare meaningfully.

I wasn't trying to account for the new passive, I was simply trying to show a side by side comparison of new Cass vs old Cass with equal amounts of AP at various stages of the game. Mainly I wanted people to see that Cass does in fact still do damage, and if played right she does more damage than she used to.

After that I was just hoping that the conversation could shift away from misinformation to actually discussing some of the issues that exist with the rework.

chumbler3 votes

The problem I have with this math is that it is not correctly accounting for her new passive. If you have the same items at level 13 for both new and old Cass that would have given old Cass 500 AP, you will be in the 525-550 range with new Cass (assuming tier 1 or 2 of passive stacks). Similarly at level 18, you should have 1100-1300 AP with whatever was giving you 1000 AP with old Cass.

When comparing her old and new raw damage numbers, I prefer to think of the passive as increasing the AP ratios instead of AP. My math suggests that until tier 3 of the passive, new Cass does less damage (to slightly more at high AP and # of E's) than old Cass for the same number of E's with any combination of Q, W, and R. As you pointed out, it's easier to hit more E's with new Cass, making the raw numbers harder to compare meaningfully.

I wasn't trying to account for the new passive, I was simply trying to show a side by side comparison of new Cass vs old Cass with equal amounts of AP at various stages of the game. Mainly I wanted people to see that Cass does in fact still do damage, and if played right she does more damage than she used to.

After that I was just hoping that the conversation could shift away from misinformation to actually discussing some of the issues that exist with the rework.

Damage wasn't old Cassiopeia's problem (the game being designed by idiots was), and a piddly amount more of it was absolutely not worth the rest of the trash in this rework.

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