Some thoughts about Quinn (the thing about nerfs and lethality)

KestrelGirl··34 votes·7,303 views

Quinn main here. I'm no Valor Bot. Just wanted to share my thoughts now that Quinn's showing up as a "secret OP."

So as you all know, Quinn's pretty strong as of 7.2, and she'll be even stronger in 7.3 with the Jayce nerfs. This is NOT related to her win rate. It's high, it's been high for a long time, and will stay high unless people start playing her for fun and not seriously maining her, like they do, say, Annie, Jayce, or Riven. She is, however, slightly OP right now. Not like Camille or LeBlanc or Syndra or Ryze or current Jayce, but OP. The thing that really pushed Jayce, Kha'Zix, and now Quinn over the edge was the buff to lethality. The buff made Talon and Zed a little more effective, and lethality be a little better on ADCs, but it's really too strong. (Someone I know played full lethality Illaoi and carried with it. That is a problem, no?) If Riot doesn't decide to nerf lethality ratios slightly, though, I guess I'm fine being a part of the new assassin meta. I do main a hybrid assassin after all.

Something else to clear up: A senior Rioter himself went on a rant after facing a Quinn in lane as Pantheon, saying that she's bullshit and needs nerfs. He (10/8/11) and Quinn (18/10/4) both did well, despite Panth being an absolutely hellish lane for Quinn. (From op.gg, it looks like Quinn was outfarmed in lane as she should be in this lane, but made up for it later.) First of all, the difference in KDAs is because Quinn carried her team (well, tried to), while almost everyone on the Rioter's team did well. Second of all, both he and Quinn built lethality (he got double, she got triple). Pantheon's another champ who abuses the stat: in terms of NA win rate, he's right on Quinn's tail - and has twice her play rate. Third of all, the Rioter won the game despite the reasonably fed Quinn. The objectionable thing, though, is that he'd like to pigeonhole her into being an ADC, and I'll just say it right now. That will not work. I'd go into detail, but I'll save that for if anybody wants to know exactly why. The long and short of it is that Quinn basically ends up with only one ability unless her support engages a lot.

TL;DR don't nerf champs because they use a newly broken stat, like people want for Quinn. Nerf the stat, then nerf the champs because they were flat-out OP to begin with, like Jayce after the buff to his ult, and Rengar and Kha'Zix after the assassin rework. Riot's fucked this up before by nerfing the champs, then nerfing/removing the stat or item they were balanced around (a la Devourer), making the champs useless. Don't do that to my beloved Quinn. Please.

Ninja edit 1 - not naming any names

50 Comments

Apocalypsic13 votes

Personally I don't think Quinn needs any changes at all, I'd like riot to stop trying to shift around her role and realize that she's never going to be optimal as a marksman botlane with a kit that inherently bullies and disengages melee champs easily. I think that's fine though, that's her niche and honestly even then if you build ninja tabi she shouldn't really be able to bully you hard out of lane anymore anyways.

Out of lane she transfers into a burst assassin against squishies, which once again is fine, but her power is a symptom of them over-buffing lethality a bit, not the champ herself.

Valor Bot4 votes

I agree that Quinn's current kit does not fit bot lane, she should be balanced around functioning as a Slayer first and foremost and Marksman second; if that means decreasing her AA range, then that's fine -- but nerfing her base stats and upping her AA range to shoehorn her into bot is not the way to go, that's not the kind of character Quinn is intended to be -- she's supposed to serve as a self-sufficient character able to go toe-to-toe with enemies in duels and skirmishes while having strong mobility, not a standard bot lane marksman reliant on a support for success.

Phoenix Kotori 3 votes

I am still not sure leaving her as is in becoming a mid-late game burst assassin is the right choice personally, since it has the potential to be rather oppressive at times especially with item 3147 being as it is currently.

However I think her kit is fine and is definitely fit for solo lane rather duo and I don't really want to see that changed.

So rather than that if riot wanted to change I think looking to tweak things in a way to encourage her to build for more sustained damage late game rather burst with Crit/AS adjustments while trying to discourage lethality builds on her, I'd be ok with that personally. Though I am not sure how it would work out since fervor became much less practical on her compared to last season after the stacks gained from abilities was removed it made it more difficult to go this route for Quinn.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Second this.

Regarding making her more sustained damage later, Riot could change some of the damage scaling on her passive (which works well with Lethality / ArPen) for a duration increase of the W boost on proccing the passive.

You know, like having the AD component scale from 16-40% instead of 16-50% and have her ult with a passive that gives 0.5/1/1.5 seconds bonus duration.

KoKoboto3 votes

Quinn has always had a high winrate but I don't think she needs nerfs. She's toxic to play against though from a sender point of view cause I rarely go against any other Quinns. Heck Quinn is just a toxic champ in general since rework even moreso when played with lethality builds. Her crit builds should be judged the same as any ADC build so I don't bother mentioning them.

-Quinn main from the duo lane

KennysDreamGirl3 votes

i only have one thing to say and that is the part on illaoi.

illaoi needs to get in the middle of a fight so hr ult will hit multiple champs and be effective..

if you let a full damage illaoi(no defensive items at all)(a very immobile champ that has to walk to get near anyone) just walk right in the middle of your team and let her ult and w and possibly e(I think that effects her tentacles aswell, I don't play her much anymore so I forgot) then you deserve to get shat on.Illaoi

Shrîke3 votes

The rioter sounds like a dick. Thanks for the post though, my thoughts exactly +1

JVlasterQuinn2 votes

Crit Quinn is the best Quinn, i never had any success with Lethality build.

ItsOrval2 votes

Quinn is useless in team fights, late game when everyones grouped shes fucked. Shes mainly good for mid game when she can roam and get ganks fast.

Also Jayce doesnt beat Quinn in lane. Quinn can out poke Jayce, Quinn can E Jayce when Jayce decides to go into hammer form to Q Quinn.

Just Blame Jenny4 votes

Late game she's still useful if she can get a good flank, though she tends to explode real fast if her team doesn't back her up/the enemy focuses her. Which is to say that I don't think she's useless, per se, but team fights for her aren't really ideal. She's much better as a split pusher.

Mind, that's also largely why people don't play her ADC. Her kit sucks for that role.

KestrelGirl1 votes

{quoted}

Late game she's still useful if she can get a good flank, though she tends to explode real fast if her team doesn't back her up/the enemy focuses her. Which is to say that I don't think she's useless, per se, but team fights for her aren't really ideal. She's much better as a split pusher.

Mind, that's also largely why people don't play her ADC. Her kit sucks for that role.

Yeah, that's pretty much it in a nutshell. I stick to Quinn top/mid/jungle and splitpush whenever possible. Usually I've roamed around and got my team ahead enough that they win 4v5 or 4v4, but this is Bronze.

KestrelGirl1 votes

{quoted}

Quinn is useless in team fights, late game when everyones grouped shes fucked. Shes mainly good for mid game when she can roam and get ganks fast.

Also Jayce doesnt beat Quinn in lane. Quinn can out poke Jayce, Quinn can E Jayce when Jayce decides to go into hammer form to Q Quinn.

Never said Jayce wins lane against Quinn. After the upcoming nerfs, Quinn 100% wins the lane. Jayce is just pick/ban in pro play and all that BS.

Kozmotown2 votes

as a Quinn player I have to say, people like you are the worst part of her playerbase

Quinn is NOT an assassin or a slayer. she is a MARKSMAN. you just happen to be playing a MARKSMAN in a solo lane so don't bitch if riot wants to balance her around her primary role

also any source on her getting an extended AA range? i'd really love to see that happen Quinn

Wimbledofy1 votes

Yeah that's why on her update they made her ult always up. Her ult is totally a thing for marksmen.

KestrelGirl1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah that's why on her update they made her ult always up. Her ult is totally a thing for markmen.

ADCs are not supposed to roam. That is assigned to the supports. Therefore Quinn with her roaming ult is not an optimal ADC despite being a marksman. But in other lanes it makes her kit really interesting - I love how I can just fly around and gank everyone like a second jungler.

Valor Bot3 votes

I think Wimbledofy was being sarcastic. lol

Wimbledofy1 votes

he doesn't know how to use the boards I think. He's not using discussion mode. He's replied to at least 1 other person on this thread without understanding their context.

Sound Voltex5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kozmo Farmgirl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XpXEtV3E,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-02-02T03:19:53.074+0000)

as a Quinn player I have to say, people like you are the worst part of her playerbase

Quinn is NOT an assassin or a slayer. she is a MARKSMAN. you just happen to be playing a MARKSMAN in a solo lane so don't bitch if riot wants to balance her around her primary role

also any source on her getting an extended AA range? i'd really love to see that happen Quinn

QUINN is played in SOLO LANE because playing her BOT with her KIT is not OPTIMAL you VEGETABLE

Shrîke2 votes

Find a different champion to play. Riot considers her a hybrid assassin, if they really wanted her to be played bottom they would have balanced her around that in the rework.

KestrelGirl2 votes

{quoted}

Find a different champion to play. Riot considers her a hybrid assassin, if they really wanted her to be played bottom they would have balanced her around that in the rework.

I'm saying I have a problem with her being possibly made into an ADC. I like Quinn how she is.

Wimbledofy2 votes

you need to be on discussion mode. that comment was clearly not even directed at you.

Shrîke1 votes

That wasn't directed at you.

Kozmotown1 votes

then how come i see Quinn when i type "marksman" in the search box?

SSJTribe3 votes

You'll see Teemo too. A marksman is any champion whose primary source of damage comes from autoattacks.

Valor Bot3 votes

Ranged auto attacks, to be specific. Though it's really more a question of whether their ranged basic attacks are powerful enough for them to be considered Marksmen, not whether their spells do more damage than their basic attacks.

SSJTribe1 votes

That's true. I'd like to think TwistedFate should be considered a Marksman as well, but his Q is strong enough that he doesn't count I guess.

Tychusfindlay9191 votes

"dont nerf a champ because they use a NEWLY BROKEN..."

hahaha.

Darius because of newly broken courage of the colossus, accept your fate birdy. Riot would rather keep the new things they make and nerf whoever abuses it rather than take that problematic thing out or nerf said problematic thing first.

KestrelGirl8 votes

{quoted}

"dont nerf a champ because they use a NEWLY BROKEN..."

hahaha.

Darius because of newly broken courage of the colossus, accept your fate birdy. Riot would rather keep the new things they make and nerf whoever abuses it rather than take that problematic thing out or nerf said problematic thing first.

CotC is a great example of the RIGHT thing to do, actually. Poppy was already meta before the keystone came out, and she's the only oppressively good user of the keystone to also get nerfs to her kit. (Darius was a force to be reckoned with in low Elo already. CotC was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.) Now we have a version of CotC that's not insane, and Maokai, Poppy, Nautilus, etc. are more easily killed, especially when they're alone.

But we'll see what happens at midseason.

NineTailedMystic4 votes

How can someone feasibly be this salty over two minor nerfs.

Cavesloth1 votes

Quit pretending like Darius got nerfed into the ground, hes still got a 51percent winrate postnerf.

SSShutTheDuckUp1 votes

On a somewhat (un)related topic - as a Quinn main do you prefer lethality over crit? I've had better success with crit so far (damn shyv wave-clear), but I haven't tried her lethality build after it was buffed. What do you think?

FioraWillCarry1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Awesomeasf ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XpXEtV3E,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-02-01T21:47:35.786+0000)

On a somewhat (un)related topic - as a Quinn main do you prefer lethality over crit? I've had better success with crit so far (damn shyv wave-clear), but I haven't tried her lethality build after it was buffed. What do you think?

I practically mained Quinn in the beginning of this season and after trying both Lethality and Crit, I found crit to be better as well. Lethality gives her a truly insane early and mid game but as soon as people start getting tanky, Quinn falls off. With crit, she could ramp up to 80% crit and lifesteal and become one of the best duelists in the game by late game.

SSShutTheDuckUp4 votes

Thank you man. I agree with you, and I've been playing Quinn since before ADC rework. IMO crit Quinn is the best Quinn

FioraWillCarry1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Awesomeasf ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XpXEtV3E,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-02-01T23:02:20.325+0000)

Thank you man. I agree with you, and I've been playing Quinn since before ADC rework. IMO crit Quinn is the best Quinn

Overall, crit Quinn is more versatile but lethality Quinn does have its advantages. For one thing, crit builds take a much longer time to kick in, lethality on the other hand, makes Quinn quite an effective assassin and can be used if you have the confidence that you can end the game quickly and you must end it quickly before you become useless. The only exception being when you're up against a team of all squishies. Against such a comp, lethality Quinn can be insane late game as well.

SSShutTheDuckUp1 votes

Yes, i think i'm gonna try lethality soon. Thanks for the tips and best of luck

Phoenix Kotori 2 votes

I switch it up depending on the enemy team comp as long as I am in top lane personally, I'd say I go lethality about 65% of the time & crit about 35% of the time in the current meta.

While when I am playing her mid, I am almost always go the lethality build.

SSShutTheDuckUp2 votes

Quinn mid is so damn fun! I love it, but I've always player her with crit. I think I'ma give lethality a chance soon. Thanks for the tips and best of luck

KestrelGirl2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Awesomeasf ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XpXEtV3E,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-02-01T21:47:35.786+0000)

On a somewhat (un)related topic - as a Quinn main do you prefer lethality over crit? I've had better success with crit so far (damn shyv wave-clear), but I haven't tried her lethality build after it was buffed. What do you think?

I'm a Shiv appreciator too! Into squishies I tend to build one lethality item or Maw (depends on matchup), then one Zeal item, then IE, then situational. A ton of people are doing triple-lethality into Shiv though.

Quínn3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Awesomeasf ck,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XpXEtV3E,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-02-01T21:47:35.786+0000)

On a somewhat (un)related topic - as a Quinn main do you prefer lethality over crit? I've had better success with crit so far (damn shyv wave-clear), but I haven't tried her lethality build after it was buffed. What do you think?

Duskblade > Youmuu's > Shiv > Edge of Night > BT > TriForce/LastWhisper/T2 Boots.

The best build imo. Duskblade is an extremely broken item right now, and Quinn uses it very well.

MooooooooreDakka2 votes

I've been liking ghostblade (though duskblade or edge of night might work also) into shiv into ie and then I can either get more lethality if I need damage or I can get stuff like frozen mallet, maw, or dead man's.

Dracocrash1 votes

Agreed man

Gehco1 votes

what is quinn's current signature damage item?

KestrelGirl2 votes

{quoted}

what is quinn's current signature damage item?

Duskblade. You may build the new Ghostblade or Edge of Night if you wish, depends on matchup and whether you're going single, double, or triple lethality.

iTaLenTZ1 votes

Quinn is one of those champs that made me quit the game. Pure cancer to face in toplane

The Yetii Rider1 votes

No source? Fake news.

Blåbæret1 votes

In what world is Quinn op, lmao?

SSJTribe1 votes

I used to build item 3078 first item on Quinn, as the AS was nice, the huge damage on E (or Q)+sheen+passive, and the phage passive was a great way to chase people down when you couldn't quite burst them. Is that not really a thing anymore?

Phoenix Kotori 1 votes

I usually go for item 3078 2nd or 3rd on her, I haven't been going it 1st item in a long time.

Adammbra1 votes

Her BUFF in 7.6 is over the top now being able to Respawn as valor though however they shouldnt have reduced the damage on skystrike. At lvl 18 i killed a mastery lvl 7 yasuo 5 times. Just follow her recommended Build i prefer to getitem 3142 beforeitem 3147 or not get drakblade at all she is op and has no counters unlessTeemo teemo. almost forgot r>e>aa>q>aa>aa>aa>e = DEAD Poke your enemy laner Early.

NOTE: ALWAYS PLAY TOP NOT MID/JGL/BOT AT LVL 14 ASSASINATE THE ENEmY TEAM ECSPESIALlY IF THERE ISAshe

KestrelGirl1 votes

{quoted}

Her BUFF in 7.6 is over the top now being able to Respawn as valor though however they shouldnt have reduced the damage on skystrike. At lvl 18 i killed a mastery lvl 7 yasuo 5 times. Just follow her recommended Build i prefer to getitem 3142 beforeitem 3147 or not get drakblade at all she is op and has no counters unlessTeemo teemo. almost forgot r>e>aa>q>aa>aa>aa>e = DEAD Poke your enemy laner Early.

NOTE: ALWAYS PLAY TOP NOT MID/JGL/BOT AT LVL 14 ASSASINATE THE ENEmY TEAM ECSPESIALlY IF THERE ISAshe

So. Uh. Corrections.

Quinn is actually great against Yasuo. Not a surprise that you're able to delete his a**, no matter how good he is.

Build - triple lethality OR 1 lethal -> BotRK -> Last Whisper if against tank, OR build sorta like Vayne (BF Shiv IE ER lifesteal) if ADC, OR Skirmishers Sabre Warrior -> triple lethal if jungler

Counters - Pantheon, Camille, Akali, Malphite. Teemo is actually one of our easier lanes.

Poke early? B**** please, go aggro early. Auto E auto = free TLD proc.

Top works. Mid works if your team's not all AD. (It's like playing Talon or Zed mid.) Jungle works, though the Skystrike nerf kinda made it a bit worse. For all of these max QEW unless you're laning against a tank, in which case QWE. ADC works, if you build crit and max QWE.

Ashe is a harder lane for Quinn ADC, but I agree, she and her frequent companion Zyra are easy assassination targets if you're top/mid.

Bonus: You can also 1v1 a Vayne at any point in the game.

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