Luden's Nerf is going in the wrong direction

Steelflame··90 votes·6,451 views

As we recently saw on the PBE, Luden's Echo got a pretty sizable nerf to it's stacking rate from spellcast (from 20 to 10), and a small ratio nerf.

This makes the item almost exlusively good on poke champs or hyper-god tier mobility champs, and the like, but kills it on Machine Gunner mages that tended to be immobile but cast spells really fast to get multiple Luden's procs in a single fight instead.

Instead of letting Luden's scale on spellcast exlusively for it's recharge from spells, can we please make it scale on spell HIT instead, or half and half? This means you actually have to land skills, and hit the enemies, to keep it charging, but if you just keep whiffing skills as a poke mage, then you don't really get much from it (except the fact your can just keep walking around to charge it easily).

This is what I would really like to see out of the Luden's charge rate...

Each spellcast and spell hits (and only one hit per spell counts to this) charges Luden's Echo by 5. If a target hit is a champion or monster, double the charge gain (meaning you get 20 per cast if you always hit a monster or champion). This tones down Luden's pushing power (as it now only will have the new functionality of 10 charges gained instead of the current 20, like what you all have changed about it recently. If you 100% whiff your shot, or it is a team targetted buff, it only charges by 5) and it tones down the ease of poking with it, without hurting it's use on rapid fire mages (assuming you actually land your stuff, anyway).

This is just what I would prefer personally, as I like the new Ryze (who heavily enjoys the high charge rate from spellcast, but almost gets nothing from the mobility part of Luden's charging) and it keeps Luden's charge rate in what I consider it's "optimal" use case of where you are always attacking, and more importantly, landing hits on, the enemy to keep the charges coming. Hell, I'd even be happy with Luden's Echo being divided into two items, one for poke/mobility mages, one for Machinegun/high cast rate mages, with two seperate charge mechanics while sharing the same unique passive (to prevent stacking them). Perhaps an enchant for Luden's Echo? You build the item and it's flat out just 10 charge per cast, but you can enchant it to have the poke mage or machinegun mage focus of power?

I don't know just please, Riot, leave something for the few mages who are NOT able to zip around the map at Mach 1 or cover half a screen in a second a way to use Luden's Echo please.

81 Comments

Z Statistic31 votes

That intended lol. It's supposed to be for poke and waveclear only. It's not supposed to be a feasible dps increase.

KaileeNox18 votes

totally agree.... I wish I had DFG back... Riot could have of just removed the active... I just want my 120 ap with CDR back item 3070

Steelflame10 votes

Except Luden's Echo was made as a REPLACEMENT for DFG so we could get rid of how powerful DFG's active was for burst assassinating. We lost DFG as our "boost damage output while not increasing ratios by instead increasing base damage dealt" type of deal.

The thing is, this nerf to it's charge rate will make it so that almost no one will want to use Luden's if they can't just either exclusively siege an enemy, or have the ability to jump 4 screens distance at once almost. Currently, Luden's is in a pretty sweet spot of all classes of mage being able to use it effectively. Machinegun caster, Poke mage, and Assassin all have good use cases out of it, unlike DFG's only Assassin bias. If the nerf goes though, this will DELETE Machinegun caster (Ryze, Cass, Eve (if played AP), somewhat Karthus) use of it, not really hurt poke mages, and be a nerf or mild inconvenience, depending on the assassin, for assassins. DFG was, primarily, for assassins. Half of the assassin batch will be pretty well hurt by losing the DFG replacement, half will be mildly hurt. Poke mages won't really feel too much of a loss, and MG mages just lost tons of their DPS. You know the people who most are most irritating with Luden's Echo? Poke mages. Because their entire thing is already focused on just avoiding all retaliation by damaging you from outside of your range, it isn't exactly fun to have them have even more reward from doing just that.

Z Statistic9 votes

And if you can proc Luden's Echo multiple times per teamfight to the point that it becomes a viable dps increase, then it's just a superior damage item to DC. Quite frankly, Riot scrapped the entire idea of DFG because it was unhealthy. Echo is not a replacement for DFG. Echo is its own niche of poking and waveclear.

Penta Penguin4 votes

what kind of wave-clear are you expecting to do with 100 damage to 4 targets every minute?

FantasySniper3 votes

Lich Bane is infinitely better than Luden's for burst mages, and machine gun mages actually find things like item 3151 item 3003 item 3116 to be more efficient.

Z Statistic2 votes

Liandry's, no AA, only if you use obscene amounts of mana Rylai's is for having a bit of beef vs poke

If you want stuff for spamming stuff for dps or aoe in a fight, then you get DC.

What kind of funny is that there is one champion that can make use of all 3 of those items together extremely well: Swain

There are some who like Liandry's, some who like AA, and some who like Rylai's, and some who like a 3 choose 2 combination. But Swain is the only one who comes to mind that wants all 3 of them. Not even Singed wants all 3 because then he can't tank without resistances.

FantasySniper3 votes

Cassiopeia Zyra Velkoz Karthus Malzahar Azir can all get Liandry's or Rylai's and be quite effective with either or both. Being a mage that doles out damage in continuous bursts makes Liandry's a useful DPS addition (especially because of the Mag.Pen), and Rylai's makes locking them down for longer easier. Anivia Karthus Cassiopeia Ryze Viktor Xerath can all get Archangel's Staff no problem.

Getting Deathcap is a norm among APCs, there's no question about getting it for damage output.

Durzaka2 votes

It was made as a 120 AP replacement for DFG.

It was NOT made to fill the burst damage niche of DFG.

ThatAutofillSupp2 votes

What mage DOESNT have wave clear honestly? (Ezreal doesn't count)

Oaklen1 votes

better question what assassin doesn't?

ThatAutofillSupp1 votes

Fizz, but... point still stands, ludens shouldn't be used for wave clear, but for a replacement for DFG

masterdragon4811 votes

fizz has waveclear

ThatAutofillSupp2 votes

he does but its not very reliable and its his escape

Leu079 votes

Most affected champions: Ahri Cassiopeia Azir Ezreal Karthus Orianna Ryze Syndra Velkoz Ziggs

Zair Umbras6 votes

You're missing Kat and Vlad there, both of which have been getting it due to the spammy nature of their abilities and of course the enjoyment of free damage.

NorthernDruid4 votes

Also Nidalee, who procs the crrent Luden's at least twice each combo, and then also on every spear she tosses.

Orangesilk3 votes

To be fair, the item was what allowed AP Koggy to even be relevant again. AND back into the darkness you go little Koggie, this game nerfs diversity by nerfing items instead of nerfing the clear outliers that they intend to nerf when an item comes up.

B1naryB0t2 votes

Keep in mind, nerfing champions because of interactions with items tends to go quite poorly. At that point, the player is required to build that item to be relevant. An example of this is Evelynn, who was nerfed because she could abuse DFG. Now that it's been removed, she's below shit tier.

Zair Umbras2 votes

Nerfed to where she had to go AD and be in the jungle from an AP Assassin mid at that.

Skia Asteri2 votes

{quoted}

Keep in mind, nerfing champions because of interactions with items tends to go quite poorly. At that point, the player is required to build that item to be relevant. An example of this is Evelynn, who was nerfed because she could abuse DFG. Now that it's been removed, she's below shit tier.

How is first pick worthy in the LCS when Sejuani is available on patch 5.9 (previous patch) below shit tier?

Z463 votes

I can't speak for B1naryB0t, but my problem with her is that she's not even an assassin at this point. It's Warrior (or even Cinderhulk) into full tank, and it's completely counterintuitive to her classification as an Assassin/Mage.

Widder882 votes

Magus is more popular than Cinderhulk for Evelynn. And the people who play her as AD-Tank just don't know about her true power as Full AP assassin. 25-50% of the skill you need to play Evelynn is probably about scaling/item-build-knowledge.

Nameless Voice1 votes

Evelynn

Widder883 votes

The item gets worse for Evelynn Cassiopeia Karthus. But that doesn't matter because item 3089 was better anyway for these machine gun champions. If you spam like this, Ludens will only proc around every 5th spell. But the bonus AP of Rabadons passive amplifies every spell. So why buy Ludens? It is only good as a boots replacement in the late late game.

Nameless Voice1 votes

For Evelynn: Luden's Echo cost 200g less, gives a speed boost (remember that her passive one was randomly removed a few patches ago), and deals more burst damage until she has other sources of AP*. It also allows her to actually kill someone with her ult if desperate. It's also magic damage, which generally hurts more than the physical damage from her E (most champions tend to have more armour than MR.)

Luden's current burst is 100 + 0.15 AP Her E+Q has an AP ratio of 1.55 (lower before she's maxed Q), plus another 0.1 for two Arcane Blade procs.

She needs 280 AP before her initial burst (one Q + E) is higher with Deathcap than Luden's.

Widder883 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XY2yHggm,comment-id=0003000200000000,timestamp=2015-05-31T17:29:33.499+0000)

For Evelynn: Luden's Echo cost 200g less, gives a speed boost (remember that her passive one was randomly removed a few patches ago), and deals more burst damage until she has other sources of AP*.

Ludens gives more burst damage than Rabadons as first item. But neither is a good first item for Eve. She needs CDR first. Magus/Morellos/Nashors Tooth/Athenes or just a Fiendish codex. I saw Alex Ich playing Solo lane Eve with Ludens Echo as first item in a stream. It was really weak. Early on she needs DPS, and CDR increases the DPS the most.

If you have already a Magus enchantment for example (no runes, masteries), Ludens Echo deals only 22 more damage with RQE than Rabadons against a target with 1500 health. With an additional AA plus Q Rabadons deals already 14 more damage. But RQE(AAQ) is not enough to kill a target at this point. At this point you need DPS to kill a target, and Rabadons gives more DPS. Later in the game it is possible to oneshot targets, but at that later point in the game Rabadons gives also more burst than Ludens.

200 less cost and movement speed is an advantage for Ludens, but only a small advantage (7% ms is barely noticeable, 200 Gold is maybe a thing). If you buy Ludens as second item, it limits the possible third item purchase. It has to be Rabadons Deathcap, there is no other option. But if you buy Rabadons Deathcap as second item, you can buy Lich bane, Zhonyas, Abyssal, Hextech-Gunblade (or Ludens Echo) as third item. So you can react better to your opponents/the situation.

And as third item after Rabadons Deathcap, Lich bane is better option than Ludens Echo. Both items deal similar burst at this point, but Lich bane deals just more DPS.

Ludens Echo as fourth item deal more damage than Zhonyas or Abyssal, but Zhonyas is way more safe.

So Ludens Echo is for me only a last item boots replacement, if i don't need boots for CDR. Ludens is close to be a good option at many points in the game imo, but at any point there is a item that is a little bit better. But it is so close that Ludens is maybe a good item with a different playstyle or game idea. Maybe it works in an hybrid build for example. But it is surely not the case, that Eve needs Ludens Echo.

Nameless Voice1 votes

So, I played some games and compared the performance of Luden's vs Deathcap, and I have to agree with you. Deathcap is just overall stronger, at the slight cost of taking slightly longer to finish and having a slightly worse build path.

With Deathcap alone instead of Luden's, it's a small but noticeable improvement to damage (slightly less burst, slightly more sustained / AoE), but once you add Lich Bane, the difference is really noticeable when compared to Luden's+Lich Bane.

Also, the waveclear with Deathcap is much better than with Luden's (despite Luden's theoretically being a waveclear item), because those Qs are much stronger.

Double Rainbow1 votes

Who's building Luden's on Karthus really? Rylai is still better on him, because of slowing passive.

Leu072 votes

{quoted}

Who's building Luden's on Karthus really? Rylai is still better on him, because of slowing passive.

Idk, but all karthus abilities are aoe, so you are only getting the 15% slow instead od the 35%, Cassiopeia is a much better candidate for Rylais IMO. Since Karthus deals aoe damage and he spams Q like crazy, Luden's is IMO a nice option to give him a little more aoe damage, a nice 120 ap and some MS.

Double Rainbow1 votes

That's true, but he's still DPS mage, not burst mage. Even 15% slow is great and allows you to land more Q's. I agree, 120 AP could be nice, but that nerf doesn't really hurt him as much as burst/poke mages, because most Karthus players doesn't build Luden anyway.

Windup5 votes

[deleted]

Samflash32 votes

I would have preferred it to be a 100 AP item with CD.

Nameless Voice3 votes

I like the idea of only getting stacks for spells which hit enemies, with double effectiveness against champions. Much better than just reducing the stack rate and hurting all classes of users.

NorthernDruid2 votes

Poke mages are the ones with the worst use out of it in teamfights currently though, Machinegun mages ought to still get at least 2 procs during a teamfight, and the same goes for a good deal of assassins.

If anything I feel like the nerf to the AP ratio is unneccesary.

I just know that when Nidalee gets to toss her spear at me, proc Luden's then jump at me and proc Luden's, then there's something really wrong going on.

Down to 10 might be a bit much though, it might well be the case that 15 is a better number.

Orangesilk4 votes

Have we considered nerfing the problem champions instead of the item then?, I'd rather like to see Nidalee nerfed around the existence of Ludens than randomly nerf Karthus out of the blue because "problematic outliers".

NorthernDruid3 votes

(disclaimer, written at ~4:00 AM-4:30AM, coherency not guaranteeed)

The problem with that is the point where you're building characters around specific items, or more specifically, removing power from them because they can get it from specific items.

This is after all something which happened with DFG and was why the wanted to compensate some of the champions who had previously been nerfed around it.

The fact is though, that Luden's is strong across the board, less strong on poke mages with long spell rotations, and very much more strong on AP ability spammers with at least one short cooldown ability.

Which is a great deal of the roster really.


One of the ideas with items (not necessarily how Riot designs their game, but certainly one of the facets items have in MOBAs or games with RPG elements in general), is that while anyone can use an item equally, certain characters (Champions) will have better use out of one item than another.

In a classical RPG example, while both a Fighter and a Wizard can use a magical sword and get the same benefits, the Wizard is much less suited to use it than the Fighter because of how their innate sword wielding skills compare.

The problem with Luden's is in a large part because of the same non-issue there is with Sheen (Sheen generally only works if you can procc it repeatedly in a fight), With Sheen this is largely not an issue, because of its innate cooldown contributing as well as spacing out of combos often providing a large part of the needed procs, or simply building it to contribute burst if your kit involves a convenient way of applying on-hit effects.

Sheen has several ways of benefitting highly from it, it's gonna be better on Champions who can continously proc it, but it's never gonna be bad on characters who can use it naturally as part of their burst.

Luden's echo in comparison, is very reliant on continous spell casts to proc it multiple times during a fight. And each individual short cooldown contributes, so if you have a lot of short cooldowns (or just more abilities due to transform abilities, or even resets) then you benefit a huge amount from repeated procs. While if you have a few long and one semi-short, you benefit moderately.

The usefulness of the item relates directly to your kit, and scales multiplicatively (haven't proven that with math, sry) with each low CD ability.

So while it's the only burst adding item in the game for AP casters, it's not nearly as good on Viktor or Veigar, as it is on Karma or Ryze. (to pick random examples).

Burst combo mages get the least out of the item (because they usually do one full rotation and then kite around to do another after their spells go off cooldown), and sustained dps mages get the most out of it (because the more often you can use your abilities the more often the item procs).


So how should this item be balanced so that all the champions who use it use it to roughly the same effect.

Because currently, burst casters use it as a burst-amplifier adding 100+15%AP to their combo, while sustained casters use it as a repeater proc adding 2-3 times that amount to their sustained DPS.

So what is the right thing to do? If the item is proving too strong on champions who get to use it for 300+45% AP, but is more ok on the champions who get 100+15%. Is the right thing to just remove sustained-dps champions base damages and ratios until they're ok? Then they have to build Luden's to be at their expected neutral state. Is it to lengthen their cooldowns so they don't synergize with it so well? That's a more radical gameplay change than anyone will be willing to accept.

And more importantly, if several champions are getting too much out of Luden's Echo, should each individual Champion be nerfed to match, or should the item be changed as to have more equivalent effect on different types of champions?


For the record I do belive that Nidalee could use some kind of nerf, but not just because of Luden's Echo, Luden's just makes it more apparent how much she's allowed to do basically at once.

Champion Skin2 votes

Well some tank junglers seem to be getting some nerfs because of CInderhulk or it might be because they are played more And if I remember right Akali got nerfed simply because of Gunblade existing (Though that was quite a while ago)

TH Exarthious1 votes

Is there any champion in the game that could make good use of Luden's Echo and Static Shiv? <grins evily>

Skia Asteri2 votes

{quoted}

Is there any champion in the game that could make good use of Luden's Echo and Static Shiv? <grins evily>

Nidalee

item 3078 item 3285 item 3087 item 3135 item 3174 item 3042

Enough move speed to no need boots. Very one dimensional though (massive burst with Take Down).

TH Exarthious1 votes

Wish I had, and knew how to play Nidalee....

Transgressor2 votes

No my friend, it's ok. The fewer mongloids we have playing Nidalee, Lee Sin, Zed, Shaco, and Tryndamere the healthier this game becomes. Be different, you don't have to play Nidalee. Learn and main a champion that requires skill to master, then kick the living shit out of all the plebs that chose easy mode.

TH Exarthious1 votes

I have a love for support, and tanks.... I'm always fighting an uphill battle. :) I need to master an Assassin some time soon.

Transgressor1 votes

May I suggest an alternate option?

Don't go for assasins, instead opt in for waveclearing casters. Stay in the back, farm triple the amount of the second best last-hitter in your game, buy items and carry. Allthough it's good to know every role, I feel mages with wave clear take far more skill to master, not to mention you can pwn kiddies with them.Karthus Lissandra Morgana Syndra Vladimir Orianna Azir Chogath Kennen are great examples of champions that can just farm themselves to victory and when mastered, can be far more usefull than just press-all-your-buttons-and kill 1 enemy-then die or be useless for the rest of the teamfight- kind of champions. I personaly find outplaying bastards with the pure power of your champion as well as carrying 1vs9(there's no better feeling than EWRzhonyas initiation with Lissandra)incomparable to the embodiment of bullshit that is Zed, Master Piss, Cancer FIzz, and the like.

If you still feel you need to have a certain assasin in your roster, Rengar Akali Fiora Diana are great choices, because their kits can suplement certain aspects the player may lack in this role. One could argue they're not at their best right now, but in order to get good at this game one has to not be a meta-faggot.

Best of luck.

TH Exarthious1 votes

I just want a solid mid laner for those times no one takes mid lane. I own Morgana, so will toy with her for awhile, while considering one of the other mages. I don't want to feed, and would prefer a more team fight oriented champion to be honest. I thrive on team fights more than do instant killing one person. I want to rough it up with the opportunity to walk away bruised up, but not dead.

Transgressor1 votes

Then Morgana and Lissandra are perfect choices, remember to max Tormented soil first though so you get the auto-pushing on the way, so you don't have to worry trading and rush a item 3027 to solve your sustain and scale to something more than a lame glass canon. Lissandra's kit allows you to farm safely and then fuck kids up in teamfights. Max Ice shard and ring of frost second for maximum waveclear, and work on trading by aiming great shards only, save the rest of your abilities for when plebs go melee-forming you. Both of them have mana issues though, that's why I run mana regenaration/5 yellows so I can make it through the early game. NEVER rush item 3165, NEVER buy item 3027 on lissandra mid, rush item 3157 for generic matchups and item 3001 for when you're against oppressive AP matchups. If you're doing as intented, you'll be at 300cs by 28 minutes with 3-4 completed items just from csing like a god. With morgana after your item 1058 and fully stacked item 3027 you'll be done worrying about HP sustain and your only worry will be running out of mana, her binds are hard to land when on mid lane, so just save it for when the enemy gets cocky since you can bait with your shield which negates most of their damage anyways. Tormented soild should be maxed and spammed to keep the lane pushed while you cs for free, damage for free and heal for days with your bind maxed second.

Both picks THRIVE in teamfights, with Lissandra my personal favourite(she's one of my mains) since she can turn entire games around just by your skill alone. Both have kits that allow you to focus on your farm game and get yourself fed by being lvl 18 when the rest are 16. They are not champions you pick for relaxation though, that's for sure. If you're looking for something more laid back and just farm untill teamfights start for you to perhaps do something, I suggest Vladimir and Orianna.

TH Exarthious1 votes

Thanks for the info. I'll definitely give it a run. I love the support roles, and tank roles but I just don't feel like I can push wins in those roles as much as I would like. It sucks to go something like 2-2-22 (made up but close) on Nami, or have a phenomenal game on Rammus/Nunu and still lose the game.

Transgressor2 votes

Always a pleasure, I'd never suggest something I don't love doing myself, and I guarantee you my suggestions work because I try them myself, not because they derive from general consensus.

IGotScuttleCrabs2 votes

Kayle item 3100 item 3087 item 3285 item 3091 item 3172 item 3089 burst, magic resist shred for shiv and ludens, plenty of movement speed to skip boots.

Could prob skip zephyr for something else of you like.

TH Exarthious1 votes

Interesting, I have Kayle too....

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