Champion reworks are going too far

Antonín Dvorák··4 votes·1,128 views

There, I said it. The current trend of completely removing champions and replacing them with a new champion. Sure they'll leave in one thing that Riot considers to be 'iconic' (appearantly Sion was all about health stacking), but It's nothing more than a memento to an older champion.

I've been playing since season 2 and call me a relic or anything, but I enjoyed playing Sion Karma Xerath . I didn't play them a lot because they were considered bad for good reasons but they were unique champions nonetheless which in my opinion could be fixed by tweaking their numbers. I can still enjoy their new counterparts but not without remembering that I'll never do crazy lifesteal builds with Sion or doing the huladance wih Karma ever again. Either way I could get over it, albeit with some difficulties.

But now that there's talk about a Gangplank rework it's the first time i'm actually genuinely afraid. I've been playing GP as long as I can remember, but nowadays everytime I pick him I think for a moment that eventually the same GP won't be there anymore. And it's a horrible feeling I tell you. I know it might just be a veigar level rework (i'd still play GP even if he was underpowered) but Riot has shown that it's willing to completely overhaul a champion and the fact that I don't how far Riot is willing to with GP is what makes me so nervous.

All this made me wonder why nobody is opposing the way Riot is handling these reworks. Sure I see threads complaining about certain reworks and how they could be done better but never about the fundamental concept that Riot is willing to remove champions from the game if they conisder them outdated, toxic or whatever it is. I think people should consider that these reworks might not stop at GP or Poppy, but that in the future a lot more champions will find themselves under the chopping block. Call me overly negative but I can already see in a year or maybe 2 Udyr getting reworked for being outdated, Singed being replaced for toxic gameplay and Galio being overhauled for the heck of it because nobody plays him. (just some examples I have no idea how Riot works)

I understand that Riot has every right to alter the game however they like. However LoL has a huge playerbase that keeps growing and the playerbase gets older and more attached to the game as well. At this point even the most unpopular champions have their fanbases. I think that Riot should have more consideration to these sentiments to 'outdated' and underplayed champions when it comes to reworks.

22 Comments

Crett3 votes

Everyone enjoyed playing old Sion. No one enjoyed playing against him. Stuns you, runs up to you, chop chop dead I did many a 1v5 in the old days, and I luckily never wound up on the other end of one.

If it makes you feel better, full AD Sion is actually more viable than he seems. Nothing like old Sion though.

I personally love the rework.

EDIT: Gangplank is anti-fun too. Everyone's gotta be tired of the random crit for 2/3 of your health and then the sustain, and the bankplank, DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON HIS OLD DENIAL MECHANIC, etc. Champions are fun, but sometimes they are REALLY not fun to play against.

Antonín Dvorák1 votes

But isn't this all simply a matter of opinion?

I personally don't like playing against the new Sion I think he has too much base damage for the CC and tankiness. With old Sion you knew what to expect as his itemization actually decided his damage output.

But then agian that's just my opinion and I respect yours, however I dont think anyone deserves to have a champion they enjoy playing be removed from the game.

Crett1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Antonín Dvorák,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XONWd1h3,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-04-25T10:58:40.863+0000)

But isn't this all simply a matter of opinion?

I personally don't like playing against the new Sion I think he has too much base damage for the CC and tankiness. With old Sion you knew what to expect as his itemization actually decided his damage output.

But then agian that's just my opinion and I respect yours, however I dont think anyone deserves to have a champion they enjoy playing be removed from the game.

Old Sion just wasn't an interesting champion. I miss what he did sometimes, but then I ask myself why I feel that way because gee GOLLY whiz I personally have never enjoyed playing against him.

I can tell you an underplayed champion who did basically the same thing (not quite the same way but played right you won't notice the difference)

Olaf He might be able to fill the void in your heart. item 3074 item 3065 item 3072 These three items and he is lifestealing quite like old Sion (but of course not quite as much) while being immune to CC. The stun is gone tho

If you're talking about AP Sion, though, I at least don't think anyone misses playing against that LOL Maybe he was fun to play but he was binary and extremely uninteresting

Antonín Dvorák1 votes

As a matter of fact I do play Olaf, but conisdering his current state I fear he's also a candidate for a rework eventually.

Crett1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Antonín Dvorák,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XONWd1h3,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-25T11:09:25.377+0000)

As a matter of fact I do play Olaf, but conisdering his current state I fear he's also a candidate for a rework eventually.

Yeah. He's definitely upcoming; I'm sure they're going to try to do him justice

Nagoh Shan1 votes

No doubt they'll try to do him justice, but he'll still probably end up being retconned into being from Shurima or something.

Angry Monster2 votes

So your saying that bad kits that are unhealthy for the game should stay no matter what? The reworked champions are problems that number balance can not fix.

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

I genuinely enjoyed the sion rework, it was masterfully done, left legitimate counterplay for his kit without making him useless. The ryze rework looks good too, the issue I have is the half-assed reworks like what hit Veig and Cass. They didn't want to put in the effort to make them viable after the rework, and simply number tweaked their only reliable abilities till they were essentially 1 button wonders. If the redo GP, I hope its a complete rework, not a relentless gutting followed by mercy buffs just to get the winrate back up.

Antonín Dvorák1 votes

I don't blame anyone for enjoying reworked champions, they generally have a good design consisten with Riot's campion designs. I play Karma and enjoy playing her but that's because she's a fun original champion on her own, not because she has anything to do with old karma.

But my point is that they're completely new champions which has the unforunate implication that Riot is willing to remove champions from the game. I simply fear that what we call a good kit now may one day be considered outdated or toxic at which point anyone who enjoyed that kit is completely at Riot's mercy. I find this thought quite unsettling and I think it's worth considering whenever you decide to invest time in a certain champion.

magee1011 votes

To be honest, I view Veigar's tweak as not a rework, but a tweak. A rework is when they totally overhaul the kit, Veigar's kit is still the same it is just different. Veigar is actually -better- now I think. FIrst off, you can get 2 stacks of your Q at a time and it has longer range which means you can farm more safely. The fact that your E now has a delay is actually I think better for the game, as an instant stun to your face with no warning no way to avoid or do anything about other than have a banshee's veil charge or QSS was broken. Other stuns in the game either give you a chance to dodge it or get distance between yourself and the enemy so that you take the least damage possible while stuck in place. I've played Veigar alot with his new tweaks and I can get +200 AP within 25 minutes.

lB2kGRlc8y1 votes

The issue is the increased AP yield does not mitigate the 35% damage loss from not being able to land meteors. Basically, he CAN be stronger, if the enemy is unobservant, but the expertise of the Veigar player isn't the deciding factor, but the lack thereof of the enemy. This is the type of playstyle Blitz has, and people openly denounce his playstyle as toxic.

magee1011 votes

{quoted}

The issue is the increased AP yield does not mitigate the 35% damage loss from not being able to land meteors. Basically, he CAN be stronger, if the enemy is unobservant, but the expertise of the Veigar player isn't the deciding factor, but the lack thereof of the enemy. This is the type of playstyle Blitz has, and people openly denounce his playstyle as toxic.

I can still hit meteors all the time, it's all about placing your gate in a spot that they're going to try and run out and hit an edge as it come up, you just have to play the gate differently now. You have to rely more on a tank to keep them in place or get them busy if your gate fails sure, but I've still gotten a triple kill from landing one gate on the enemy team 1v3

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

sion wasnt reworked

critical fail from your side

besides that, its a hard topic from one side those champions have their playerbases, but at the same time they are unable to function well in current game

riot reworks them becuase they cant realy ballance them in any satisfying way, they can either make it op and toxic, or weakn

i do know that feel of atachment to the champion, but the question is whether preserving that is good for the game, and i think its not

magee1011 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XONWd1h3,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-04-25T10:56:19.792+0000)

sion wasnt reworked

critical fail from your side

Sion was indeed reworked, he got both a graphics overhaul and a kit overhaul. My buddy and I used to call him the "Holy Hand Grenade". Sion used to have a stun like Taric's and his shield had a 1:1 (or more) AP ratio. You could walk up to anyone but a tank (and even them if they had no MR) stun them for 1/4th of their health and burst your shield for the rest (think a 1000 AP Shaco shiv to the back when you have no MR) Now his stun is a aimed/timed cleave of his axe and I have no idea what his old ultimate was but now you dash about half a lane's length without any way to be stopped except yourself/hitting champion/hitting wall or structure.

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

another critical fail from your side

sion was RELAUNCHED

riot intentionaly scrapped him and made a new champion with similar theme, and one similar ability (they changed it from an ap nuke to a tank's shield)

you cant realy put it into the rework category, because their aim was to remove sion and give us a similar champion instead, normal reworks are focused on preserwing the gameplay and the feel of a champion, while sion was mean to be demolished and made a new

Antonín Dvorák1 votes

I see now, my apologies for this mistake. EIther way just like I argued in my main post I still find the removal of champions quite an unsettling concept.

Sona Ping1 votes

Actually, you made no mistake. This guy was just making a stupid semantic argument saying you are wrong based on your word choice not being reflective of his personal feelings about the rework and the ideas he holds about the term.

Anyway, to keep my reply slightly on topic: I too think it's kind of sad that I am not able to play, I suppose you could call it "certain vintages" of champions. But Sion's old kit really didn't work, it wasn't at a tweakable level. The abilities didn't work together and you couldn't build for them either, they were just janky and didn't fit nor play well.

magee1011 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=XONWd1h3,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2015-04-25T11:10:18.118+0000)

another critical fail from your side

sion was RELAUNCHED

riot intentionaly scrapped him and made a new champion with similar theme, and one similar ability (they changed it from an ap nuke to a tank's shield)

you cant realy put it into the rework category, because their aim was to remove sion and give us a similar champion instead, normal reworks are focused on preserwing the gameplay and the feel of a champion, while sion was mean to be demolished and made a new

Sion was never intended to be scrapped entirely, they said "We are removing Sion and are going to rework him and then re-release him" and that is exactly what they did. So in a way, it is both. But they NEVER intended to remove Sion and replace him with "someone else similar"

Knight SoIaire 1 votes

But they NEVER intended to remove Sion and replace him with "someone else similar"

i just mean that they dint realy try to preserwe much more than his old theme and the shield mechanic

Antonín Dvorák1 votes

Maybe i'm just being selfish here, but I don't see why we can't have both. Just leave them completely underpowered for all I care. I just find the thought that I'll never be able to play some champions again a hard pill to swallow.

MLDzXnRRR1 votes

Ap sion was the best burst mage in the game :DDDDD

Antonín Dvorák1 votes

Just some food for thought, suppose we compare LoL to the Ship of Theseus. If every evevery outdated champion would be reworked or replaced. Would LoL still be the same game?

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