@RiotRepertoire Why not just remove ward jumping?!

JnFnRu·Aug 20, 2015·45 votes·4,597 views

I am wondering , yes it is used for all those flashy Lee Sin Plays but lets face it, Ward jumping was probably never meant to be part of the game and in my opinion it would at least not give Lee (and Jax and Kat) escapes and engages they don't have in their Kit to begin with.

IF you remove it, Im sure it would put those 3 champs into balance with the rest and they would at least have to think about using it properly instead of just "Oh im caught, quick lets put a ward down for extra disengage)....

63 Comments

StellafreyjaAug 20, 201528 votes

I'm more in the boat of "Why are certain champions the only ones allowed to ward hop?" There's so many champions with targeted dashes and escapes that can't ward jump. Either everyone can or no one can.

Jungle Lux GodAug 20, 20154 votes

To be fair, the reason Lee, Kat, and Jax all have the ward-jumping is that they can dash to allies on their targetted dashes. Most other targetted dashes are either enemy-only targetted (ie. Irelia Q or Wukong E) or target a specific kind of unit (ie. Azir's E targets a sand soldier, Shen's R targets champions specifically, or Rek'Sai's R targets her tunnels). They can't dash to wards because they aren't designed to be dashed to allies.

Braum's W is the only exception I can think of off-hand, and maybe he should get it, although it he is probably balanced around not being able to do it, and might need nerfs in other areas in order to get ward-hopping that might not be good for Braum.

ninjaIRL Aug 20, 20154 votes

Braum 's Stand Behind Me is a jump to (nearby) an ally position. Why can't he?

MegamanEXE79Aug 20, 20151 votes

It's a jump to ally position that also grants them a defense buff. It's pretty much what Lee Sin's W is, but they intentionally made sure he can't ward hop with it.

Still annoyed

Dar RaksadaAug 20, 20153 votes

because he wasn't in the game yet when the ward hop bug appeared (ward hopping was initially a bug, but people complained when they tried to remove it so they kept it)

maikokkAug 20, 20152 votes

ok but, theoretically.. if you had a pink... could you wardhop to an enemy ward with those skills?!?!?!

ninjaIRL Aug 21, 20152 votes

To put it at a very undetailed and simple way: Enemy wards are coded as enemy units, therefore you cannot. Allied wards are coded as allied units therefore you can.

maikokkAug 21, 20152 votes

i dont think you read the context of this comment m8

ninjaIRL Aug 22, 20152 votes

Were you talking about Katarina's and Jax's ward hopping? You didn't mention either, I assumed you were still thinking about Lee Sin's W. Be more specific.

maikokkAug 22, 20151 votes

we were talking about why some targeted dashes dont work. the thread i replied to was referring to dashes that target enemy units exclusively not working on friendly wards....

so. IM CURIOUS... if those dashes can target enemy wards... if you have vision of them

CatSithAug 20, 201518 votes

Let the Katarina , LeeSin , and Jax mains down vote this thread. Ward jumping is a stupid and it should't even be a thing. Its understandable for lee sin because his spell is a defense skill, but kat's shunpo and jax's leap strike shouldnt be able to jump to allies or wards with a spell that does damage.

Nameless VoiceAug 20, 201513 votes

I have nothing against Kat and Jax jumping to allies, since that has a distinct requirement (allies must be near) that the enemy can play around.

There's not really anything that an enemy can do about ward hopping.

SlaktarTaskenAug 20, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Let the , , and mains down vote this thread. Ward jumping is a stupid and it should't even be a thing. Its understandable for lee sin because his spell is a defense skill, but kat's shunpo and jax's leap strike shouldnt be able to jump to allies or wards with a spell that does damage.

I don't see any reason why Lee Sin, who is in a equal or better spot than Jax with his ward-hop-ult carry to teammates, and now ult tank into teammates for the execute, should get to keep his wardhopping, if it goes for one it should go for all.

If Jax couldn't leapstrike to allies he would be rendered beyond useless as his only cc, which heavily relies on his leapstrike has a pretty massive windup and low damage potential (just avoid auto-attacking him, everything else still goes) in comparision to other bruisers/fighters, like Riven, Irelia or Renekton, who have on demand cc.

CatSithAug 20, 20151 votes

Didn't say/mean he should keep it. But for him spell wise, makes more sense than the other two for ward jumping.

JnFnRuAug 20, 20152 votes

The thing is: Jax, Kat AND Lee are 3 all in champions who are all-in champions ,but because of ward jumping, all of a sudden get a free "get out of jail" card when their all in fails. You are meant to be able to chase down Jax when he can't all in you or you get a jungle gank but all of a sudden he jumps to a random ward or to an ally. It should be all or nothing with him. Lee is the same, he got his w called "safeguard" which is meant to be used on allies to support and shield them or jump away, yet all of a sudden he gets to put down a ward and jump over a random wall. To our last offender Kat. if she can't combo someone down, all of a sudden she uses Shunpo off CD and gets out. Where is the risk?!

Im more surprised why doesn't Leona E jump to wards or Thresh q grab on wards and he can pull himself to safety. Same reason Akali and Dianas dashes don't go to wards. Imagine Fizz being able to q to a ward over a wall.

It either needs to be for everyone or removed completely. Since it wasn't meant to be part of Kat/Jax/Lee Kit anyway, they don't need compensation buffs for this as it was never meant to be there in the first place.

RatcatAug 20, 20152 votes

Because the first 2 are skillshots, and the 2nd two cant target allies. Wards are allies/minions pretty much. It is only these three champs because they are the only ones that can jump to allies and minions with a targeted dash. Besides poor Braum.

Singing LarkAug 20, 20152 votes

Braum item 3070

Nameless VoiceAug 20, 20154 votes

Kat and Jax don't get a get-out-of-jail-free card because they have to use their only mobility tool to engage. They can't both use it to jump in and then jump out, with the exception of Kat if she kills her target and gets the reset - which is a successful all-in for her, not a failed one.

Lee Sin, on the other hand, has two mobility spells plus one of the strongest disengage abilities in the game. He doesn't really get punished for messing up an all-in unless he messes it up badly enough not to be able to use one of his two remaining tools to disengage.

I'd still be favour of removing ward-hopping from all three, though.

IcyPepperAug 20, 20159 votes

I have a better question.

Why can't Braum ward hop?

SlaktarTaskenAug 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I have a better question.

Why can't ward hop?

Oh God, just no. ^^

CatastropAug 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Oh God, just no. ^^

Wards need added Resistances too.

Count BuffonAug 20, 20153 votes

Only if you buy a poro ward skin.

MalefîcentAug 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I have a better question.

Why can't ward hop?

Because he's a support and only Champs who can 1shot people aka 'muhflashyLCSplays' are allowed to wardjump.

DrCyanideAug 20, 20152 votes

You know what would be a flashy play?

Braum Q into Ward Hop W for the follow-up auto attack into Ultimate into the two more auto attacks for the chain CC stun, throwing up Unbreakable for the movespeed disengage afterwards.

IcyPepperAug 20, 20153 votes

That's honestly the reason I wish he could ward hop ;~;

Imo, the guy is 100x flashier than Lee Sin or Zed in the right hands.

Count BuffonAug 20, 20158 votes

I'm sort of in favor of this. "lolol wardhop" is one of those goofball things like "lolol Alistar WQ 30ping is a combo, let's keep it in the game." Either you need an anchor, or you don't because it's a skillshot - that's how I feel about it.

I tried a Jax wardhop in a bot game once, and I felt kind of douchey, so now I just don't play Jax.

JedenVojakAug 20, 20156 votes

I think it's a little presumptuous to go around saying "this is power these champions are not intended to have."

They've had it for quite a long time, so I would say they are very much intended to have that power.

DecritAug 22, 20152 votes

Is more a discussion over "they should conceptually have that?" rather if they should keep that just because they did already.

And frankly, while there is depth on jumping to an ally for salvation ( sonce is teamwork ) there is none in wardjumping, and actually it trasnforms an engage into a disengage.

Imagine if Vi was able to ult away from a chase.

JedenVojakAug 22, 20152 votes

First, them having a disengage is fine. Particularly in the case of Jax and Katarina, who have no other mobility in their kit.

As for Vi, it'd be perfectly fine if she could ult away from a chase - her ult is a powerful engage, and losing it to try to survive would be a high cost.

DecritAug 22, 20151 votes

It truly is? I don't want to sound douchey to ignore what did you say, but is fine for them having a full fledged engage/disengage?

In the case of jax you have engage, damage avoidance and stun and i don't see why he should even have a disengage.

In kata case i can agree it might be more sensful, but still is tought to be used with minion waves and allies - if you catch her in the jungle she should be weaker and she should not have walljumps. But nope! Still it makes sense since she is an assassin and is weaker after disengaging, even tought having that disengage with her ult, that is an engage, defeats the payoof of using an engage as disengage, like you said for Vi.

JedenVojakAug 22, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It truly is?

Yes.

I don't want to sound douchey to ignore what did you say, but is fine for them having a full fledged engage/disengage?

Yes.

In the case of jax you have engage, damage avoidance and stun and i don't see why he should even have a disengage.

Jax in particular has no ranged abilities whatsoever and is entirely melee focused. His leap strike also has a long cooldown at early levels (10 seconds) and the choice to hold onto it as an escape, or use it to engage is an important thing to manage on him.

He needs a disengage because he needs to be able to extricate himself from a bad situation if he finds himself overwhelmed, since he only has 1 cc on a long cooldown and no kinda poke ability.

The thing I find interesting is that his counterstrike is already a 1 point wonder, and yet they're lowering the cost of it at early ranks on the PBE. I wonder if higher ranked players have been maxing his E to strong effect.

In kata case i can agree it might be more sensful, but still is tought to be used with minion waves and allies - if you catch her in the jungle she should be weaker and she should not have walljumps. But nope!

Why should she be weaker in the jungle than anywhere else? In general, champion strength tied to location is very wonky and should only be used in extreme circumstances (Infinate 1 second cooldown dashes for instance Yasuo ).

Still it makes sense since she is an assassin and is weaker after disengaging, even tought having that disengage with her ult, that is an engage, defeats the payoof of using an engage as disengage, like you said for Vi.

That is also true, since Katarina doesn't build cooldown reduction, using her only engage to escape puts her out of commission for quite a bit, unless her intended target somehow just jumps right on top of her.

JnFnRuAug 23, 20151 votes

I don't think Jax needs to have a disengage. He is an all-in champion who s meant to have a early stuggle in lane. If he holds on to his jump for ward jumping to escape every gank, it is hard to keep him down early when he is meant to be weak.

JedenVojakAug 23, 20152 votes

Jax is not meant to be weak. He's meant to be the strongest.

If anything, he's in a pretty sorry state right now, as he's not even a 90% pick/ban/winrate champion.

; )

Slamurai JackAug 20, 20155 votes

They're all balanced around being able to ward jump at this point, and they'd need to be buffed significantly if it were to be removed. Do you really want to buff Jax LeeSin Katarina ?

JnFnRuAug 20, 20154 votes

They are balanced around ward jump? Explain that to me please because afaik Lee can counter jungle almost everyone, Jax 1 on 1 everyone late game and Kat is the best TF Mid laner with her resets.

The only thing ward jump does is give them an extra free escape if things go wrong

Slamurai JackAug 20, 20155 votes

A free escape that apparently doesn't even help them that much because they're all still below average. If Lee Sin can no longer ward jump, he becomes the worst champ in the entire game because not only is a lot of his safety gone, but insecs are going to be nearly impossible. I realize that the boards think that Lee Sin is like the most broken champion ever but he is very mediocre outside of the very best Lee Sins. Jax is far worse than Irelia even with ward hopping. Katarina is a joke at anything above diamond. All removing ward hopping would do is make the game less interesting for the sake of nerfing already underwhelming champions.

Not KatarinaAug 22, 20152 votes

Well said! Ward jumping is an integral part of their kits that I do not believe should be removed. They have been balanced around them and it is power in their kits that Riot has left on them for a reason. You are welcome to disagree with me, though!

Katarina's laning phase is horrible and the ward jumping mechanic gives her safety from ganks - her E is the only safety in her kit unless you count a 1-1.5 second movespeed buff on W if you are in melee range of someone. Mobility is a part of the game and just as Ahri and many others have unconditional dashes, (Dashes who do not need targeted enemies/allies present to be used - I do not mean Ahri has unlimited R's) Zed has one, Graves has one, Lucian has one, LeBlanc has one, Kennen has one... (the list goes on and on..)

Katarina has one, Jax has one, and Lee Sin has one. But these champions' dashes in particular make up for being extremely situational unlike the former by being able to jump to wards. Why punish them for that? Imagine if you could use Katarina's E or Lee Sin's W(?) as a dash without needing to click on anything. Much more problematic.

Knight SoIaire Aug 22, 20151 votes

if lee cant ward jump

he is still lee sin ... less toxic but still a lee sin who will whack you if he plays good

kat and jax get this for free tho ... removing it for them wouldnt change much

Not KatarinaAug 22, 20151 votes

I don't mean to come off as rude, but saying Katarina is the best teamfight midlaner is highly subjective and depends on the team.

Jax is a hypercarry late and is based around scaling, and Lee is an early pressure jungler.

Katarina can be one of the worst teamfight midlaners, her kit is very situational and if you carry any CC, especially targeted, she will not get much damage off and when Katarina falls behind, she suffers massively. (And when she is ahead, she thrives - really well, don't get me wrong. Her kit is feast or famine and hopefully will be changed soon)

For teamfights, champions like Ahri or Orianna can be extremely useful for teamfighting. They are harder to catch, have longer range, and do not need to fully commit to get damage off. Orianna's ult is great and Ahri's ult makes her very hard to catch out.

There's also great mid-lane teamfighters like Lulu Morgana Annie Azir

Or champions who specialize at taking out your backline: Leblanc TwistedFate Zed

etc etc etc.

My point being: It's very hard to objectively say one champion is consistently better than the rest at x. :)

So yes, her teamfighting is extraordinary - if you carry no cc. Otherwise, there are options as efficient or even better.

Dar RaksadaAug 20, 20152 votes

considering they buffed lee without there being a real need for it, sure why not.

Remlap1223Aug 20, 20155 votes

I have no problem with ward jumping for someone like Jax or Kat because if they use their abilities to jump to a ward, they're losing out on potential damage.

Meanwhile: LeeSin

SmokinSickStyleAug 20, 20153 votes

They once did that for Lee Seen, it didn't last half of half patch that Lees community backlash was so stronK that Riot got shouted so hard that even the Dovahkiin would be jelly.

Needless to say they reintroduced that asap.

BattleBalladeerAug 20, 20153 votes

Please leave Jax alone. The ward jump is the one component of his kit that requires extra thought to use. Everything else about him is a single button press and right click. Unlike LeeSin he can't really build item 2049 and actually has to make good use of item 3361 which restricts him to the CD of his leap, his mana, and the CD of Totem.

Do w/e you want to lee tho.

Ulquiorra995Aug 20, 20152 votes

At least disable it for ward trinkets. Normal/SS ones are fair game. There is no reason that Lee "LC$BIGPLAYS" Sin should have what is essentially a Flash trinket besides all other things going for him.

MarshallBanannaAug 20, 20152 votes

Riot will never remove ward jumping because LeeSin mains will be like "muh sick plays!" and we all know how much pull they have with riot.

See? they are even buffing him for worlds even though nobody asked for it

ClementhiasAug 20, 20152 votes

This is pretty outlandish, but maybe it would be possible to have those Ward hop moves destroy the ward, or maybe disable it's vision for a 30-60-90 sec time depending on level or something similar. or maybe a flat rate.

NiaphimAug 20, 20151 votes

While personally I want ward hopping removed I think Teleport shares the same interaction with wards programmatically. So should we sacrifice teleport also in this case? Otherwise it might be too heavy in coding.

JnFnRuAug 20, 20151 votes

I agree with this. TP gets a good CD to go to Turrets and you get punished for TP'ing to minions which makes it more obvious when your lane minion all of a sudden gets invulnerable.

Remove TP to wards , that stupid "surprise" when someone tp's in some random unwarded bush is annoying anyway. Let these spells be more obvious so they allow counterplay

RatcatAug 20, 20154 votes

JUST REMOVE ANY INTERACTION WITH WARDS

MarshallBanannaAug 20, 20153 votes

you are comparing a 200+ second CD Summoner spell with relatively long casting time that's maybe on 1 guy per team to low cd champion ability.

The game already punishes TP into wards by giving it a higher cd on anything that isn't a turret.

Also, those champions didn't get any compensation NERFS for having free wards via trinket, which is BS