What Makes A Champion Fun/Frustrating to Play Against?

HexaDecimel··1 votes·705 views

Recently there have been a lot of threads regarding Mordekaiser and the current rework being done by CertainlyT. In a lot of these threads a recurring comment I see is that CertainlyT doesn't make champions that are fun to play against. Now I hope this doesn't become a CT hate thread, but I am interested to know what other players think is fun or frustrating to play against.

I have laned against a Thresh , Kalista , Yasuo , Riven , Vayne , ect. I have lost some and won some, but I have never really considered what it's like to play against them. In most cases I get the most enjoyment from beating my opponent while they are playing a super strong champion. The greater the challenge, the better it feels to succeed. I love it when I dodge a thresh hook or blitz grab, I enjoy locking down a kalista, I find it hilarious baiting a riven under a tower. I remember watching my brother play against a Fizz , and getting him to bait out the pole hope before he tried to go all in. It is a mechanic that I have in the past seen a lot of people complain about, but I think there will always be interesting ways to counter abilities and beat an opponent. However, that leads me to to the question "what makes a champion fun or frustrating to play against?"

Based on what I have seen on the boards it seems that people are very quick to declare a champion as having a frustrating play style or being cancer. And I get it, I hate being stunned or constantly dodging endless skill shots, but I have always looked at it as I got outplayed, not out picked. Do most people prefer the challenge of facing a mobile opponent, or the ones that can simply delete you if you make one wrong move? Do people prefer the farming game, trying to slowly get ahead in cs until they can muscle their way through the lane? Or do most people prefer the less punishing lane opponents, where you feel you can relax a little more and engagements are a bit more drawn out?

If I was to put together a list of champions I found unfun to play against it would be something like Malzahar and Katarina. I honestly find his ult frustrating and boring at the same time. It doesn't really offer any counter play, and I have to just sit there taking damage until it's finished or it gets cancelled. And I don't like Katarina simply because it seems that even if I can beat her in lane, someone else will get her going.

11 Comments

Desiderium3 votes

Fun: When I can play around what they play with. For example, Yasuo's tornado, pushing him away from my minions to reduce his mobility, Zed's shurikens that his ult's damage is very reliant upon, Lux's spells when I'm playing a champion that has the capability to dash over them, etc.

I want to be able to react to my enemy. If I can't do that, it's not fun.

Prospector Pete2 votes

They're frustrating to play against when they have no counterplay, like Riven . She basically jumps in, stuns you, does a ton of damage, and then hops out with her shield to negate any damage you might throw back at her.

Aeolian Melodies2 votes

To me it's fairness.

When you feel like you can't do anything against a champ simply due to mechanics, it's very frustrating.

Let's take Annie compared to Thresh for instance.

With Thresh if I get engaged on it's because I got hooked or flailed - my fault, as both are skillshots. It was up to me to dodge it. Got caught, I'm bad.

With Annie, if I get engaged it's because she either clicked me or dropped T-bomb (which is virtually impossible to react to if she flashes/uses Talisman). There is nothing I can do against that (bar staying out of range which means out of gold and xp range so not really a counter play here), so it just feels very frustrating to play against.

Or Lux compared to Akali.

You get killed by Lux because you ate her spell rotation of which 100% are skillshots - most likely you ate the bind and got combo'd. Your fault.

Akali: You get killed if you stood within 800 range of her while she has enough items to mathematically kill you. Super fun right?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WukXkEAa,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-08-12T01:07:40.588+0000)

To me it's fairness.

When you feel like you can't do anything against a champ simply due to mechanics, it's very frustrating.

Let's take Annie compared to Thresh for instance.

With Thresh if I get engaged on it's because I got hooked or flailed - my fault, as both are skillshots. It was up to me to dodge it. Got caught, I'm bad.

With Annie, if I get engaged it's because she either clicked me or dropped T-bomb (which is virtually impossible to react to if she flashes/uses Talisman). There is nothing I can do against that (bar staying out of range which means out of gold and xp range so not really a counter play here), so it just feels very frustrating to play against.

thresh has his own problems though. hes way to versatile. it would be more fair, if his lantern got destroyed when an enemy steps on it. just like other similar mechanics like bards shrines, or zacs blobs.

body blocking the thing isnt enough, as it requires you to stop moving. which means the enemy youre chasing can get away by just running.

instead it should be a fight, who clicks the lantern first. ally to get out, or enemy to prevent the escape.

HexaDecimel1 votes

I don't think there is anything wrong with being versatile. And I totally agree, thresh has a lot of tools, but none of those tools really limit your ability to play around them. Yes the lantern is a strong ability, but is it really that oppressive to you as a player. Depending on the team comp there can be lots of ways to deny a player the lantern. And hilariously I have played with a ton of people that never seem to want to click the lantern, so no big deal right :p

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think there is anything wrong with being versatile. And I totally agree, thresh has a lot of tools, but none of those tools really limit your ability to play around them. Yes the lantern is a strong ability, but is it really that oppressive to you as a player. Depending on the team comp there can be lots of ways to deny a player the lantern. And hilariously I have played with a ton of people that never seem to want to click the lantern, so no big deal right :p

the problem with versatile champions is usually, that they either outshine any other champion in their role, or their numbers are tuned down enough to not be relevant compared to more specialized champions.

as support tanks, if you compare thresh to leona, thresh simply wins. like leona he can play aggressive when ahead, or when the lane is behind he can hang back and still help his adc with lanterns in case theyre pressured on.

most supports either excell at playing passive or agressive. thresh is too good at both.

Aeolian Melodies1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WukXkEAa,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-08-12T01:10:32.002+0000)

thresh has his own problems though. hes way to versatile. it would be more fair, if his lantern got destroyed when an enemy steps on it. just like other similar mechanics like bards shrines, or zacs blobs.

body blocking the thing isnt enough, as it requires you to stop moving. which means the enemy youre chasing can get away by just running.

instead it should be a fight, who clicks the lantern first. ally to get out, or enemy to prevent the escape.

As a support main who refuses to play Thresh I've played against him hundreds of times - I no longer care. Especially when you have TahmKench who doesn't even require the ally to do anything.

Body blocking the lantern has been removed (or greatly reduced) about a year ago though.

HexaDecimel1 votes

In my opinion this is an awesome example. I really like thresh but at the same time don't really care if I have to face him. On the other hand, when I am going into a match up against an annie, I am almost always nervous because I find her alot more difficult to play against. Now I am not saying that I think she is OP or cancer or anything, but I do think she is a good example of a champion that is not as fun to play against.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

how do you bait out the pole without burning a cooldown and then have him turn on you by hopping into your face?

the problem in this game isnt mobility creep imo, champions that are problematic or extremely frustrating are usually champions with unrestricted mobility.

meaning mobility tools in their kit that let them reposition wherever they want, whenever they want.

let me give an exaple that i usually like to bring up in this case. yasuo. i think people would agree, that hes a very mobile champion. what makes his mobility sufferable to deal with however is how many strings are attached to it. he doesnt just get a dash on a .5 second cooldown, that he can use in any direction.

  • he has to target an enemy unit.
  • he cant dash over the same enemy unit within 10 seconds
  • the dash always takes him a fixed distance

these conditions combined make him mobile, while his mobility is predictable. it allows even low mobility champs to work around it and outposition him, IF they keep track of which units he already used, since they will be able to predict his movement.

now lets look at some of the champions that are widely regarded the most frustrating or broken in the game, when theyre viable.

Kassadin Leblanc Fizz Nidalee Riven

bonus points for Gnar in mini form, who is ranged, has a speed buff, a slow and a jump built into his kit thats still a great tool to reposition when he doesnt double hop over a unit.

what these champions have in common is, that their movement is almost completely unrestricted. they can use their mobility tools to reposition into any direction when they want, which makes them extremely unpredictable and almost impossible to pin down.

they will chase you down and kill you as soon as you make the slightest mistake. and they will usually get away from any fight that doesnt go their way.

what mobility needs in this game is conditions under which these champions are allowed to move and when theyre not allowed to move with their abilities.

in yasuos case, hes a sitting duck when he has run out of units to dash over or no enemy units nearby. all he can do is attempt to walk away or try to fight it out. you actually have a chance of driving him into a corner. which is almost impossible with the champions up there. except from hard cc, that is also point and click, not much can pin them down.

nomeL1 votes

Fun to play against champions include but not reduced to : Anivia Rammus TahmKench Velkoz

Frustrating champions: Vladimir Volibear Nunu Heimerdinger Fizz

Nameless Voice1 votes

For me, fun champions to play against have specific strengths and weaknesses that I can play around, and also have windows of opportunity for both me and them.

For example, Lux has specific strengths (long range, some CC/utility, high burst) and weaknesses (entirely skillshot based, high mana costs, long cooldowns on basic abilities, has to proc her passive with autoattacks - risky - for optimal damage, extremely fragile if closed upon.) She has moments of strengths (she snares you and can unload her combo on you) and moments of weakness (has just missed a spell, especially her Q, so she is vulnerable to counterattack for a decent chunk of time.)

Also, while I'm not going to mention the champion herself (as she has some problems), I'm going to specifically mention Katarina's Shunpo ability. This is an example of a spell with a fairly significant cooldown that can be used both offensively and defensively. If Katarina uses it offensively, she doesn't have it available to use offensively for a while (and vice-versa), giving you an opportunity to punish her for it. I really like this type of ability.

As for unfun and frustrating, that's generally the lack of the things I described for fun champions. An unfun champion is one that feels like they doesn't have meaningful counterplay, where they can beat you and it feels like you couldn't really do anything to change this, or where you feel that you can't really punish them for their mistakes. Also, hard-counter champions exemplify this and are amongst the worst champions to play against.

For example, Kalista is unfun if you happen to rely on skillshots. You can spend 15 minutes trying to hit her with skillshots and miss nearly all of them simply because her kit makes it almost impossible to hit them if she's competent. You don't really feel that she outplayed you, because there's no risk or cost (e.g. windows of opportunity) involved in her mobility. She just has it, for free, to dodge your skillshots with for free.

Another example would be playing against Lee Sin. His kit has three ways (plus flash) to get out of trouble if he gets into it. He can safeguard to a ward, he can dash to a nearby jungle camp / minion, or he can kick you away and CC you. None of those things really have much counterplay (there's nothing you can do about them other than lock him down with CC.) He feels frustrating to play against because even if you catch him out, it's hard to punish him for it, so again he feels unfair to play against.

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