One thing really disappointed me about the new champion.....

HexaDecimel·Sep 15, 2015·240 votes·13,787 views

The communities negative response.

The champion hasn't even been released and people are already crying OP, Troll Pick, and Boring. Can we not wait to see some actual game play and strategies before we start declaring this champion a success or failure?

I remember people declaring the Gnar would never be a great pick because of his uncontrollable ult, that Rek'sai would be super weak because her ult didn't deal damage, that Bard would only ever be a troll pick along with Tahm. Doesn't this show that at least until the champion hits PBE we might not have the best idea about what this champion will turnout.

I for one love the theme and look of this new champion, it looks really beautiful. And sure some of the mechanics we have seen before but is it really that bad? I think the ult is really interesting and I cant wait to see how people use it. Overall, I am excited to see this champ in action but will reserve my final thoughts when I actually get to watch and play this champion.

199 Comments

AxxukaSep 15, 201552 votes

I answer this to them too :

QQ'ing on a champion without numbers on the kit while he's not even playable on the PBE ?

Lucian was considered Shit on PBE, ended up broken OP.

Tahm Kench kit felt OP on PBE and ended up being a little Underpowered until buffs to make him fine.

Lissandra felt like shit on PBE ended up Broken OP on live.

Zyre felt balanced on PBE, ended up in a hotfix nerf on Live in LESS THAN A WEEK.

Can you stop and just give it a chance for it to hit live first ? Champs often ends up the exact opposite they felt by reading the kit or what we see from PBE.

If we add ALL you said, we know we can't expect anything until Live server release comes.

People complained for Ekko's overloaded kit

Now we have a much more clear and simple kit (but design and lore seems awesome) and people still complains. This community is never happy overral no matter what riot serves. I'M SAD that it's a ADC-Jungler, I wanted a mage, but the characters looks so awesome, I will get good with him no matter what if he fits me (I love jungling recently).

HexaDecimelSep 15, 20159 votes

I am very much the type of person that doesn't expect anything from riot. I try not to feel entitled about anything and just focus on enjoying a game. And with every new champion, item, game mode, and nerf/buff I am always excited.

If there is a champion I hate I will ban them, learn how to use them and play against them, and if all fails quietly hope they will get nerfed. I think it makes a lot more sense to try new things rather then complain when my main gets nerfed. The constant change helps keep things a little more fresh.

I can also understand people getting fed up facing the same champs every game, but we dont need to get mad about it.

IxtaliKingSep 15, 20152 votes

Don't worry bro, the next champ isn't far behind this one and I'm pretty sure it has to be a Mage xD

JasiwelSep 15, 201516 votes

One quick note: Lucian was actually quite average for the first month of his release onto Live. I remember distinctly because I was one of the few people playing him that didn't regularly complain about how underwhelming he was. That was also the last time you could build TriForce on Lucian without being flamed in chat.

Then Lucian became super OP for a while starting with patch 4.12 (edit). That time was annoying because I didn't find him as fun. I enjoyed him as an AD Caster with okay mobility, not a hyper mobile ADC that had a caster's kit.

I kind of hope that Kindred has AP values or magic damage in the kit. It's a marksman, but that doesn't mean it's going to necessarily be an AD champion, unless I fail at reading and was explicitly said to be an ADC Jungler. Anyways, I think if it has AP then Runeglaive could be super cool on it.

hashinshinSep 15, 20158 votes

So what you're saying is that an ADC was released where ADC players failed to find the proper way to itemize that champion, and once they found the proper way to itemize that champion it became blatantly OP?

Never heard of that happening literally every single ADC release.

Hyrum GraffSep 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So what you're saying is that an ADC was released where ADC players failed to find the proper way to itemize that champion, and once they found the proper way to itemize that champion it became blatantly OP?

Never heard of that happening literally every single ADC release.

I don't normally upvote Hashinshin comments, but when I do.jpg

Robbit MangSep 15, 20153 votes

except that he didnt become op because of items, it was because they buffed him from his 40% winrate and basically allowed him to reset his dash with 2 procs of his passive (one from the dash, one from an ability) and just permanently kite and dash everywhere. and he was pretty op after that, before no.

JasiwelSep 15, 20152 votes

I'm sorry, but that's not what happened.

Before Lucian became the monstrosity we knew him to be for a while, he was an average-at-best or below average champion that had one of the most flexible itemization of ADCs at the time. That was also mostly due to his being considerably weaker than the above average (not top tier, just the above average) ADCs at the time, so people were searching for ways to optimize his strengths. For example, you could build TriForce on him with confidence and no one would flame you for it.

It also was not a matter of Lucian actually having an optimal build...for that first month of release, he was that weak compared to other ADCs. There was no optimal way to build Lucian because of how split his ratios were across the board AND of how high is mana-costs were. If you built full AD/AS/Crit like other carries, your Q/W/R wouldn't do enough damage for the cost. If you built like an AD caster, you were always mana-hungry, your ultimate would be weaker without the AS/AP and your auto attacks suffered without the crit. If you built balanced with TriForce, then your damage was dependent on your lead.

After that first month, on Patch 4.12, he became the monster everyone would despise him as thereafter.

LICENSED HOOKERSep 15, 201538 votes

Skarner Was thought to be a stupid rework, he would suck completely.

meanwhile on live **BROKEN FUCKING BROKEN ... EVERYTHINGS ON FIRE IT DOESNT DIE ... ITS EVERYWHERE KILLING PEOPLE **

StealthWardenSep 15, 201528 votes

notice they dont make immobile champions anymore? thats my gripe, and its legit. its annoying how every new champ has an answer for whatever may come in their kit somewhere. an AOE tryn ult...so about that counter play?

Valaran NaraSep 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

notice they dont make immobile champions anymore? thats my gripe, and its legit. its annoying how every new champ has an answer for whatever may come in their kit somewhere. an AOE tryn ult...so about that counter play?

An AOE tryn ult that works for your enemies as well.

Imagine ally Bard ulting on top of you and your enemy right before you kill them.

Imagine Kindred ulting under you and the enemy right before you kill them.

Difference? Everyone is still moving.

Chicken SailorSep 15, 201510 votes

Tahm Kench is very immobile outside of his ult. Although item 3742 helped out with that problem a lot.

DreamspitterSep 15, 201517 votes

{quoted}

notice they dont make immobile champions anymore? thats my gripe, and its legit. its annoying how every new champ has an answer for whatever may come in their kit somewhere. an AOE tryn ult...so about that counter play?

Have you not heard all the "Juggernauts OP" complaints? Apparently that doesnt hurt them much anymore.

#And that AOE Tryn Ult applies to enemy champions too.

In fact is explicitly says "All units".

#That includes Baron.

Chromatic EagleSep 15, 20152 votes

Reworking immobile champions =/= designing new immobile champions. To be fair though, what do people think of Tahm Kench and Bard's mobility?

RalanrSep 15, 20159 votes

Actually I think that many immobile mages will stay immobile and many tanks will gain at least one mobility ability (many of them already do). They may also get more CC.

It makes sense if you think about it. Artillery canons aren't supposed to be mobile.

Daedalus871Sep 15, 20156 votes

I'm more annoyed that every champion and their mother has a slow in their kits.

And for the few that don't have slows have itemization that easily leads to one.

Slows should mostly be left to supports, melees, and ice themed champions.

ModAcademy KaynSep 15, 20152 votes

Wasn't Tahm immobile? He requires an ally to get any boost in speed and calling Tahms ult mobile is like calling TF mobile?

Timmeh7o7Sep 16, 20152 votes

{quoted}

notice they dont make immobile champions anymore? thats my gripe, and its legit. its annoying how every new champ has an answer for whatever may come in their kit somewhere. an AOE tryn ult...so about that counter play?

--Immobile champions Tahm Kench has no means of escape or initiation besides his extremely finicky ult. --about that counter play? Knock the target out of the region, stun them, pull them. They're not immune if they're not in the region. If you can't do that, get in the region too and you're immune.

Guy Fox TeemoSep 16, 20152 votes

Aoe TRYN ult for EVERYONE, the fuck you talking about counter play? It's not like her team only becomes invulnerable.

disregardableSep 15, 201526 votes

The trailer was just really misleading, that's all.

HexaDecimelSep 15, 201513 votes

That is a fair argument. It probably led a lot of people to think that you could control two parts of your champion. I know that the ekko trailer had me thinking that the whole time reversal thing would be a little more interesting and have team wide effects.

But we should also remember that trailers in video games are suppose to build hype and they are often better then the final product. Just because it didn't meet our expectations doesn't make it bad or purposely misleading.

IGotScuttleCrabsSep 16, 20153 votes

Sadly, this reminds me of when i was the DragonAge 1 trailer where Morgana turns into a spider before i saw gameplay and found out it was the game type it is

Still an amazing fucking game though

SociopathFriendSep 16, 20152 votes

Yeah, I love Dragon Age but that trailer was misleading as hell for what the game would be.

"See Leliana jumping? Yeah, you're not doing that at all. In fact, anything above mid-shin is actually another plane of existence so far as you're concerned."

Only AatroxSep 16, 20153 votes

I think you mean Morrigan ^^

NaharaSep 15, 20157 votes

I'm just glad the person they killed in their splash image wasn't Helmet Bro. That poor guy's died more times than Jean Gray...

GreenLoreSep 15, 20154 votes

Its helmet bros father

AzureInTheDarkSep 15, 20153 votes

RIP Crown Bro.

AuryielSep 15, 20156 votes

I'm super pissed that they took an idea as awesome as Lamb and Wolf and made into a basic humanoid archer with a pet and a kit that has nothing flavourful about it except an ult that is tacked on for thematic purposes and has no place in the kit itself.

2 champions in one? Please. Wolf is just a spell effect. There's no interaction between them aside from ''Hey Lamb, Imma give you a buff, ok?''. The whole kit is ridiculously disappointing and completely fails to deliver on the idea of death being split in two kindred spirits that complement each other. Riot should be ashamed to have spoiled this character with that kit.

A Superb VillainSep 15, 20154 votes

I am ridiculously excited! Granted, complex mechanics or relatively unique features are not as important to me as a champion's story and design, and Kindred has a really cool aesthetic. This may be the first marksman I will actually enjoy playing, and I can't play a marksman to save my life, but by golly, I will try!!

SinlaireSep 15, 20152 votes

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/09/915-pbe.html#more

check out her shadow fire skin they're giving her on release. it's gorgeous.

TheI3igDaddySep 15, 20154 votes

I'm still just upset that they're continuing to make new champions, period. Yes, new champions spice things up over time, to avoid the game from becoming stale.

But honestly, there are a large handful of champions that, if Riot stopped releasing new ones, could easily give Sion-level reworks to them.

Yorick, Poppy, Taric, Zilean, Udyr.

I know Poppy's in the works, I know Yorick will be soon, etc. But it seems like they're really taking their time with them.

CaythelesSep 15, 201514 votes

Dude, i am going to change your world right now....

Champion Creation is a completely Different Team than Champion Rework.

Champion Creation is working on 5 other champions Right now as i type this. (one Rioter said so in an earlier post but i cant find it to site it.)

Champion Rework is working on VU for Taric and Poppy from what we know, and have other champions on their minds like Yorick and Quinn,

give it time.

RetillinSep 15, 20152 votes

You are right, Champion Creation is completely different team than Champion Rework (Update).

But they both drain energy/time/money to do something very similar. If you have 100$ you have to split it among the two teams. Let's say it's 50/50. You could easily shift it to 70/30 in favour of Update. How hard would it be to shift some from Creation to Update? They have done it in the past, and even some right now bounce between the two.

XeynidSep 15, 20157 votes

The problem is that more money =/= faster work. If you have 100 people trying to redesign a champion, it'll take years for them to agree on something.

The Bardic GaySep 16, 20153 votes

Pumping more money into champion updates is not really going to substantially increase the rate of release of reworks. A large amount of the work done there is all about coming up with ideas and going through trial and error, and it's especially delicate since you want to try to avoid a situation like, say, the karma rework, were the entirety of a champion's identity was erased. (Sion was a little unavoidable in this case since his playstyle was so fragmented, not to mention AP sion was straight up unhealthy). You can't just thro more money at a group of people and say 'imagine harder'.

Adding more people onto the team isn't the best answer either. You know what they say about too many cooks and spoiling the broth.

Guy Fox TeemoSep 16, 20154 votes

They specialize in different things O.o? What are we just gonna move the art to to the lore team, and expect to it to get better?

Sythriel DrakenSep 15, 20154 votes

I love the new champions theme, and I'm probably going to be buying the release bundle like I did with Ekko. the idea of an actual marksman jungler makes me smile as right now, you get laughed at if you take a marksman in the jungle.

ThunderSqueakSep 15, 20153 votes

I for one, Do not like the new champion because it's not DhaMa.

HexaDecimelSep 15, 20157 votes

It would have been a little awkward if the newest champion to join the rift looked like two floating sperms..... But the concept did look cool lol

ThunderSqueakSep 15, 20153 votes

But it's not DhaMa. It's not even called DhaMa. The Creator didn't even really get credited for it.

HexaDecimelSep 15, 201512 votes

I think most people know, Riot stated that they started working on Kindred several months before the DhaMa concept came out.

Blaschko2Sep 16, 20153 votes

An I the only one who feels that this champ's "R" should have been a switch between lamb and wolf? (the other would still orbit around the currently controlled one). Thematically it would make a lot of sense (similar to jayce, nidalee & elise).

OnegarionSep 16, 20153 votes

For me the only thing I'm disappointed about is that it sounded like a really cool form shifting champion. Was a bit disappointed to see that it isn't and 1 of the souls aren't even used much. Wolf kind of got the shaft on this one.

Other than that I really hate the community going overboard without even taking a chance to test things. I mean people screamed up and down that Garen was going to be shit with the juggernaught rework. Gnar was going to be too hard and pointless to play because you can't control his Mega. I could go on, but i think thats enough.

TDubHSep 16, 20153 votes

I've been testing kindred. and as a tester, I have to say; I EFFING LOVE KINDRED. she'll have major balance problems, she deals %current health which means that if they don't nerf those numbers she'll do incredibly well just building full tank instead of ad and be unkillable while being a kiting monster with the added benefits of doing 20% of your health 30m with just BOTRK. but what makes her interesting is her passive and her play; i really have enjoyed playing her and she is capable of intense trolling. she's actually the first champ release on pbe who i have found incredibly fun to play. her interaction with herself is incredible as well. She is currently incredibly strong because she has strengths and little weaknesses unlike tahm who has little mobility alone, but considering that there are nerf targetting synergistic items with her demonstrates how strong she is already.

Yosuke ApperuSep 16, 20152 votes

I was hating before they went into specifics with the champions abilities. Then I saw the max health was physical damage, also the ratios don't look terribly high at all, the utility of the ult may be pretty crazy however but regardless I'm looking forward to this. Also wondering what all roles will be possible with said champ. The release skin that's going to come out with it is also really awesome looking. Ill probably be saving up my ip from now til release(which will probably be not this coming patch, but the patch after or three patches or so.) Also the attack range only being 500 and movement speed only being 325 actually seems to balance out our new champion's mobility. I also like that the passive can't be used to consistently bully the same target over and over again. I do see Kindred as an incredibly potent jungler however. So long as it shows someone that they have been marked, they can be wary for ganks so it's almost like a warning. It's also a healthier form of warning than an exclamation point above your head for .25 seconds before dying a la Rengar . The negativity is dissapointing however so I'm with you on that. Comments on surrender@20 seem to be much more positive, plus they praise the VO's etc. I think the board as a whole just QQs too soon. I mean look at Darius... THEY WON'T STOP BUFFING HIM and the forums cried forever that he was now shit tier and couldn't do anything. Anyways I'm looking forward to this champ mate :D!

HexaDecimelSep 16, 20152 votes

Totally agree with ya, not everything impressed me about the kit. I was kinda hoping for a swap between Lamb and Wolf form, with the wolf providing more speed and damage and the lamb providing more team utility. But I think that was also a product of me reading theories and speculations on the web. So it isn't exactly Riot's fault that there was a difference between what we anticipated and what we got. Overall I am excited to give the new champ a try.

JustBoneBrookSep 16, 20152 votes

Perso the two think i dont like about it is 1 they are again monster (i am just sick of all the monster lately) 2 Why she dont have any AP ratio? Q AD, W AD, E AD, Ulti no ratio... really on a weird gost it dont make any magic?

Champion SkinSep 16, 20151 votes

Really? Doesn't the Heal on the ult have an AP ratio? that does sound kind of weird as it sounds like a reasonable place to have an AP ratio

JustBoneBrookSep 16, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Champion Skin,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=nkNh4zgN,comment-id=002c0000,timestamp=2015-09-16T11:04:21.739+0000)

Really? Doesn't the Heal on the ult have an AP ratio? that does sound kind of weird as it sounds like a reasonable place to have an AP ratio

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/09/915-pbe.html dont seem like it

W heal = Passive:As Kindred move they build stacks of Hunter's Vigor, up to a maximum of 100. At full stacks Lamb's next basic attack drains X [increases per level, staring at 20] health from the target. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-upE3YXfXL7w/VfiIoYK0faI/AAAAAAAAxV0/YUIlhfW_bTw/s1600/W.jpg

Ulti heal When = the blessing ends all living things inside heal for 200/250/300. http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IyRn-4ZQi1U/VfiI0jZn08I/AAAAAAAAxWE/VaYCSWlC4TU/s1600/rrr.jpg

StephenizgodSep 17, 20152 votes

I dont care how broken or underpowered it will be, im disappointed for other reasons.

I thought it was both a Lamb and Wolf dual champion, sadly Kindred is just Lamb. Wolf is like one ability... This is the biggest disappointment
I think we are all tired of 3 hit proc mechanics... come on lets try something new now...
We do not need more %max hp damage... its a cancerous mechanic now because of how many abilities deal it and how its almost mandatory on new champions so they can keep up.
Everyone complains about Mobility yet every other champion is released with a ton of it... Kindred has a weaker more situational Kalista passive as its Q. Which would be totally fine if Kalista didnt already exist...
The ult is like Bard ult cept it heals but this is number 5 because i actually dont dislike the ability, i think its nothing new though.

So overall i think this champion is just slightly disappointing because it had sooo much potential and they sort of ruined it by giving it slightly different variations of other champions abilities :(. Im not talking about effectiveness or OP or UP, im talking there was a lot of potential for its abilities to be actually new mechanics entirely. On a more positive note i love its design, it is beautiful and its abilities all look very cool.