Rework failures, will they ever learn to LISTEN ?

Axxuka·Oct 16, 2015·63 votes·2,695 views

(At a time they REALLY screwed him with a rework)

Will they ever be able to admit someday they screwed these reworks ? Will they ever learn that the community called out the failures ALOT and it still went through ? Too scared to admit they wasted time on a rework and it's release and they prefer to launch anyway instead of cancelling and try something else ?

When wll they learn to LISTEN instead of being like : I WILL LISTEN TO FEED BACK (BUT I WON'T TELL I CLOSE MY EYES AND GO LALALALA LIKE I DON'T CARE, I didn't forget about your stupid Failures Stashu <_<)

It's at least the 5th times it happens and they still let the fail rework go instead of reverting/cancelling and say ''Sorry it didn'T meet your expectation we will come back in a few weeks with something better after reading your feedback''.

They don't just destroy the gameplay, they destroy the Lore too (Cassio and Morde)... Why don't you stop and listen to us like before, you obviously don't.

76 Comments

Sassmast3rOct 17, 201517 votes

You forgot to include my all-time favorite champion, Karma , to the list. Although I was not present when she was in her old state, I imagine that her old kit was way more fun than her current kit (not to complain about her current kit, otherwise she wouldn't be my main haha). I think the most frustrating thing for me (Keep in mind I was not there to use the original Karma and thus my opinion is not exactly "valid" so to speak) is the fact that they removed her older theme which I actually love much more than her current theme. One example would be her previous incantations, "Saera", "Jia", and "Phyla." She used to say these ancient Ionian words whenever she would use her ultimate in conjunction with one of her base abilities. Now, she doesn't even say those words anymore; instead she just grunts or says "Never falter!" or "Peace!" I really wish they had kept these. Another core part of her theme were her fans. Lol, when I look at how she used to look, she was so sassy looking! She walked around as if not giving two-shits about ANYTHING, and the best part that really topped it off was the fact that she held her fans with such elegance. Now, she kind of just looks... less sassy haha. So I really wished that they had in some way, shape, or form kept her fans, other than in her dance for Sakura and Sun Goddess Karma. My final complaint about new Karma is her voice. The older voice, although not amazing-sounding, still sounded much more unique so-to-speak. I hate how her new voice is... expected? I'm trying to say that her new voice is boring for lack of a better word; it's so calm and elderly. She used to sound like a fierce representative of Ionia, whereas now she just sounds like a medium... Many people disagree with me on her voice, and I can totally understand that because she shouldn't sound incredibly aggressive as a meditator, and I get that. It's just... something about her old voice really resonated with me and I can't quite explain it.

BârdOct 17, 20152 votes

Holy textwall batman!

SaiannaOct 17, 20153 votes

Old Karma wasnt that fun. She was unique, but that's pretty much it. She was kinda like Bard is now. Hard time in soloQ, but good with cooridanted team.

Tbh I didn't care much about her. Played Karma few times before rework and it was all "eh.. ok.. i guess".

Sire HippingtonOct 17, 20151 votes

wether or not she was fun isn't a objective staement. I for once found her to be incredible fun.

Sassmast3rOct 17, 20151 votes

May I ask what you didn't like about her? I like to hear people's thoughts on how she was prior to her rework since I myself found old Karma so fascinating. From someone who's never used old Karma, she LOOKS to be incredibly fun honestly! I would have so much fun using her W especially, slowing people down and speeding myself or someone else up to catch someone off guard and punishing them hard for mistakes, or using my shield when I'm low and having them be shocked at how much damage they took from my shield and passive combination! What made her unfun?

KaipopOct 17, 20151 votes

I'd say she was extremely fun, passive gave more AP when low which was nice for baiting people then instabursting while healing and shielding. New Karma is fun, but a lot less unique than the old one.

SaiannaOct 17, 20152 votes

I didn't like hear leash & passive.

Whole idea where she gains AP the lower her health is was cool, but amount of AP was too low imo. (with her rework i kind of hoped they'd change passive into slightly more powerfull, %)

About leash, i could never feel it usefull. Yeah MS buff.. But damage wise, meh.

That were the 2 things i disliked about her. Shield was cool tho :)

Sassmast3rOct 17, 20151 votes

Ah I see. Well thanks for your input :). I can understand the issue you have with the MS-buffing leash, I guess that would be kind of frustrating as well...

Forbidden SirenOct 17, 201513 votes

Karma

SaiannaOct 17, 20151 votes

I just wanna say that Karma rework wasn't bad.

They did totally change her, but in the end it wasn't a total failure.

[From non-karma-main point of view]

Forbidden SirenOct 17, 20159 votes

As a Karma main, her rework isn't bad. I still love her today as she was in her original state. It's just that... they changed her identity from a duality champ to a generic poke champ. Right now, she's no longer her former self other than her Mantra R. And as a Karma main who been through the changes, I have sympathy toward Mordekaiser main.

Earl EulrichOct 17, 20151 votes

yea, as a new champ she would have been fine - as Karma she sucks though.

Ulquiorra995Oct 17, 20151 votes

Yeah. She's literally so different that the old Karma and new Karma could comfortably coexist in the League as champions.

Ulquiorra995Oct 17, 20155 votes

Call me crazy, but I'd actually love for CertainlyT to rework Karma for the second time. Sure, he will overload her kit with bullshit, but at least he will try to utilize her duality and make her kit interesting. New Karma might be strong, but her identity is gone and her playstyle is extremely boring.

SolaxoOct 17, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Call me crazy, but I'd actually love for CertainlyT to rework Karma for the second time. Sure, he will overload her kit with bullshit, but at least he will try to utilize her duality and make her kit interesting. New Karma might be strong, but her identity is gone and her playstyle is extremely boring.

he would give her yet another "hit something 3 times to get bonus damage" ability

Forbidden SirenOct 17, 20153 votes

You know... I'm ok with this. I know CertainlyT have an awkward reputation but right now, she doesn't have an identity other than being another generic poke mage.

MrWasjigOct 17, 20155 votes

CertainlyT has an awkward reputation? That's like saying that Jews are slightly uncomfortable with a member of the Nazi SS chilling in a synagogue.

Forbidden SirenOct 17, 20152 votes

Awkward in a sense of making/reworking champs with an unbalance kit with overload of passive. No communications to the players or won't listen to feedback, etc. etc. He's probably one of those guys people hate for the sake of hating. With or without reasons.

MrWasjigOct 17, 20154 votes

The thing is, all those reasons you listed are exactly the reasons why people hate him. They don't hate him for the pure sake of it.

Curling VeigarOct 17, 201510 votes

Veigar's rework was an utter failure on the day of its release, he only became good with further buffs.

RetillinOct 17, 201510 votes

You mean the fact that he got a lot better when he lost some cast time off his cage? The thing we saw a LOT of people asking for at first. But they buffed other stuff before making the cage cast quicker, there by making him a bit OP now that his kit is usable again.

Leu07Oct 17, 20159 votes

I'm still salty about Cass.

RedCycloneOct 17, 20157 votes

still salty about Sona

Rot PandaOct 18, 20151 votes

My current problem with Cass, is her kit is set up to be a mage/fighter, but she needs tons of AP to compete with others for damage, and you aren't going to have enough item slots to survive a decent focus.

Perhaps is Riot allowed her to get stacks from multiple poisoned champions at the same time she'd be doing a bit better, but I don't see her getting any such love.

Also I'm really salty about getting q-r'd by a sona while ulting as cass, causing me to lose the spell and die, earlier today.

KãtãrinãOct 16, 20152 votes

Rengar is currently fine, Morde and Skarner seem pretty balanced now. Never saw the sona changes as an issue and cassie i guess was a good one im unsure as i dont play her but she seems ok.

AxxukaOct 16, 201523 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Bad Doge,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wk2rQwc7,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-10-16T19:21:06.005+0000)

Rengar is currently fine, Morde and Skarner seem pretty balanced now. Never saw the sona changes as an issue and cassie i guess was a good one im unsure as i dont play her but she seems ok.

Cassio went from Poison mage to ''poison is just a small dmg spell to spam Fangs mage''

Skarner got 3 reworks and each time they changed his core gameplay all over again. (I wonder how skarner main hold it up, he's not the same champ each time it happens, the reworks are insane on him -.-)

Rengar was his first rework that screwed but it took VERY long for Riot to listen and rework him again (now he's good)

Sona lost alot of her gameplay identity.

Morde is a new champ that should just get a new name and is broken OP to the point of being 90% ban rate at Worlds. 3Q of you're useless much.

Penta PenguinOct 17, 20153 votes

"Sona lost alot of her gameplay identity."

No she didn't, stop repeating this shit

Q is damage and buffs your team for damage, W is heal and shields your team, E is speed and buffs your team with speed, R has always been Crescendo

gtfo of my snuggle zone

Pika310Oct 17, 20159 votes

They removed her auras. They screwed up her cooldowns. They nerfed her bases AND scalings. Her identity is lost. Music is NOT a single note or a single line. A song lasts much longer than a State Farm commercial jingle.

If it wasn't bad enough that Fearless made her unplayable, her kit thematically does not make sense.

OshletOct 17, 20151 votes

Okay, I'm a skarner main, he's probably my best champion. I liked him right at the start when he had a heal on his e and a slow on his q and was a bit all over the place kit-wise. He played as a tanky, mid-utility champion who could build damage successfully if he snowballed.

The first rework appeared, and his heal was removed, as was his q slow. This was IMO, the worst rendition of skarner: He couldn't chase as well as before, but he still had the core gameplay identity of being a tanky mid-utility champion who could being damage if snowballed.

The second rework appeared and my god, at release, it was obscenely fun. You felt like sonic with how much movespeed your q and w together gave you and the stun from tagging an enemy with an ability 3 times was very rewarding. The one issue I had was he didn't scale as well with damage anymore but that didn't matter too much because he had solid hybrid bases and still worked decently with a sheen item.

The juggernaut rework was and is fantastic. They smoothed out the passive from the previous rework by implementing it into his e, cut down on his magic damage while buffing his scalings so he could once again build ad when snowballing and giving him the ability to turn SR into dominion. You feel like a god on your crystal zones and still feel useful outside of them, and the core gameplay of being a tanky, mid-utility champion who can snowball with damage items remains.

I can 'withstand' these reworks to my main because most of the time they fuckin' rock. Or crystal, as the case may be.

BellowsOct 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Cassio went from Poison mage to ''poison is just a small dmg spell to spam Fangs mage''

Skarner got 3 reworks and each time they changed his core gameplay all over again. (I wonder how skarner main hold it up, he's not the same champ each time it happens, the reworks are insane on him -.-)

Rengar was his first rework that screwed but it took VERY long for Riot to listen and rework him again (now he's good)

Sona lost alot of her gameplay identity.

Morde is a new champ that should just get a new name and is broken OP to the point of being 90% ban rate at Worlds. 3Q of you're useless much.

I am fuking PISSSSED about mein ein leibe, Skarner. (German for "My One Love, Skarner")

I want him back tot he way he was this new passive bullshit is ridiculous, riot, we have issues between us now, and its cause of this, revert him back and i will continue to shove my money out of my wallet and into your bank accounts again. Pls.

Mein ein leibe, Skarner... Skarner <3 Rip <3

LudovicoOct 18, 20152 votes

mein ein leibe, Skarner. (German for "My One Love, Skarner")

"Meine eine Liebe, Skarner". :) Das Possessivpronomen für ein weibliches Substantiv ist "meine" :) .

But what you wrote can be interpreted in a funny way: "Mein einer Leibe, Skarner", can be interpreted as "my one body, Skarner". "Leibe" is a bit outdated, but still widely used in churches.

BellowsOct 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

"Meine eine Liebe, Skarner". :) Das Possessivpronomen für ein weibliches Substantiv ist "meine" :) .

But what you wrote can be interpreted in a funny way: "Mein einer Leibe, Skarner", can be interpreted as "my one body, Skarner". "Leibe" is a bit outdated, but still widely used in churches.

Ah, ty. I personally prefer Leibe over something like Schatz. Im a bit old fashioned anyways.

Also, why dont we have a champ with a Germanic accent?

LudovicoOct 27, 20151 votes

At least Oktoberfest Gragas should´ve an accent^^.

Apart from that I´d be against adding more "germaness" to the game :P . Horrible voice-actors, and the translation... Maybe you´ll get why this one was so hillariously wrong: Garen (EN): "I´ll show you what I´ve got!" Garen (GER): "Ich zeige euch, was ich habe!"

BellowsOct 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

At least Oktoberfest Gragas should´ve an accent^^.

Apart from that I´d be against adding more "germaness" to the game :P . Horrible voice-actors, and the translation... Maybe you´ll get why this one was so hillariously wrong: Garen (EN): "I´ll show you what I´ve got!" Garen (GER): "Ich zeige euch, was ich habe!"

Isn't that "have"? Not "got"?

If i remember correctly, "bekam" is "got"......

MarhsallLee67Oct 17, 20152 votes

As a former Skarner main (didn't stop playing him for any particular reason- just wanted to branch out from jungling more), I don't mind the reworks that much, but I will admit that I really miss the perma-slow on his q and the heal (and damge) on his E. :<

Regardless of what the reworks did to his gameplay, he still felt like a scorpion-crystal monster, so they didn't feel like the Morde rework, where the overall theme of his character was drastically altered. The one Skarner change I absolutely despised was his lore change- he went from a character who actually had a depressing backstory to just generic angry monster guy protecting something "mysterious."

junglerboy16Oct 17, 20152 votes

Rengar is most definitely NOT fine right now; he is super binary and snowballs too hard (either falling behind so that he can't do anything in a fight or becoming so oppressive that nothing can touch him), his scalings are a mess (one ability scales hard with AD, one scales hard with AP, one scales hard with level, and one scales hard with how much he snowballs), his stealth is still broken on a fundamental level because of how the rest of his kit works (he can either have burst, or the stealth, but not this stupid pseudo-stealth gimmick), and he still doesn't fit his intended identity as a hunter who tracks and slays his prey, because he has to either be an overly bursty glass canon assassin or a pathetic low damage fighter.

Once they actually make him a hunter based around stalking prey and setting up proper ambushes, then he'll be a success.

Slamurai JackOct 17, 20152 votes

Did you know that the Ahri Fiora Maokai Nidalee Ryze Soraka Tristana Veigar Xerath Zilean reworks were all declared failures the first couple of weeks they were out? This community calls nearly every rework a failure; time will tell which were actually a failure (whatever a failed rework even means).

RetillinOct 17, 20156 votes

Well Ryze was. He could chain stun everything. And Veigar was so useless until they sped up is cage (that was the main complait to begin with). And I'm not sure if Zil is in a better place at all.

KarcistOct 17, 201513 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wk2rQwc7,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-10-17T03:38:10.116+0000)

Did you know that the reworks were all declared failures the first couple of weeks they were out? This community calls nearly every rework a failure; time will tell which were actually a failure (whatever a failed rework even means).

The Zilean rework was a failure.

Maximum ZileanOct 17, 20156 votes

{quoted}

The Zilean rework was a failure.

As a Zilean main. It was. And they are finally fixing his biggest issue from it. Giving him an actually useful passive after all this time.

LankPantsOct 17, 20159 votes

This community calls nearly every rework a failure

Not when they're done well. Look at Ashe , Sejuani , Trundle and Sion . These are examples of how Riot should be doing reworks, with the exception of Sion they stayed true to their original kits and just made the characters better.

BârdOct 17, 20159 votes

One problem in those.

Old trundle.

His current lore is "I have a big stick"

His old lore was so much better.

Gameplay wise, it was fine. I wish AP trundle was still with us tho.

OshletOct 17, 20151 votes

I'm unsure about ashe, but there was definitely a fair bit of boo-hooing about the other three. Even sion. In fact, I'm pretty sure people got uber pissy about the sejuani rework.

Unlucky Number7Oct 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Not when they're done well. Look at , , and . These are examples of how Riot should be doing reworks, with the exception of Sion they stayed true to their original kits and just made the characters better.

some people still call the Sion rework a failure, and they want sion to be reverted to his old form.

alfavhunterOct 17, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Unlucky Number7,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wk2rQwc7,comment-id=000500020002,timestamp=2015-10-17T16:37:08.391+0000)

some people still call the rework a failure, and they want sion to be reverted to his old form.

It's because they completely changed his role

From a fighter/ Mage to a tank

Unlucky Number7Oct 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

It's because they completely changed his role

From a fighter/ Mage to a tank

and i still consider it a success because they took a badly designed character and gave us a well designed character that's fun to play as and against.

Wind WhistlerOct 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Unlucky Number7,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wk2rQwc7,comment-id=00050002000200000000,timestamp=2015-10-17T17:13:23.536+0000)

and i still consider it a success because they took a badly designed character and gave us a well designed character that's fun to play as and against.

I don't hate the new Sion, I think he's nice, but the problem with the old one is he COMPLETELY lost his identity as an unkillable lifesteal zombie. He'd probably make good use of items like Sterak's Gage and Titanic Hydra if he were still around. What they should have done is changed his Q and W to be more AD focused abilities, because that's what a zombie with a huge axe should be. Not gonna lie though, his model was terrible, and a lot of the quotes were really out of place and unfitting.

MordepoolOct 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Wk2rQwc7,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-10-17T03:38:10.116+0000)

Did you know that the reworks were all declared failures the first couple of weeks they were out? This community calls nearly every rework a failure; time will tell which were actually a failure (whatever a failed rework even means).

Ahris assassin Rework was bad. She good now. A Failed Rework I would define as not having the desired affect on the game/ making a champion unfun

Pika310Oct 17, 20151 votes

They nerfed Ahri's damage thrice, nerfed her spell ranges twice and then after already falling out of meta because of the repeated nerfs, they kick her while she's down and nerf her sustatin as well.

She's seen what, 1 pro game recently? ...and it was a loss?