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I asked you - you answered. Stuff about marksmen

InTheory··22 votes·10,188 views

I asked you and you answered! Here are my results of marksmen identity. Be sure that these points are independent of meta thinking and aim at helping define what marksmen are – not what they should be (plus commentary).

What you said makes marksmen easy to play:

  • Most of their gameplay contains right-clicking enemies. They have barely any skillshots or these are easy to hit or just not impactful. They have a very low resource management since their main task is to deal damage which does not cost mana. Since they have the highest damage in the game, they can kill anything pretty fast.

What you said makes marksmen hard to play:

  • Being focused requires constant repositioning. Attacking and moving at high attack speed (2.0-2.5) is really hard to do effectively. Maximizing damage output requires minimizing positioning and vice versa. A constant and instant decision making when to prioritize one above the other is required to be effective.

My thoughts: Moving power equally from attack speed to attack damage (mostly from itemization especially in crit itemization) makes them easier to play and opens up the class for more players while still leaving this just as an option. Since the raw increase in AD also benefits ability damage that scales with AD, the new options should be slightly weaker than their AS friends. On the other hand that’d require a rework of the crit mechanic since that requires large numbers of basic attacks to flat out the damage output, but all in all it should be smoother afterwards. On top of that it mathematically the same to have constant damage amplification on basic attacks instead of some really strong attacks and reduces the upfront burst cases.

What you said makes marksmen successful:

  • Being enabled by their team/support who provide peel, protection and crowd control, keeping enemies away from their marksmen so they can deal their damage. Since they are polyvalent and can basically do everything related to damage from taking turrets, neutral objectives, skirmishes, teamfights, waveclearing and sieging, they will always remain the mandatory core of any team composition.

What you said makes marksmen unsuccessfull:

  • They are constantly focused independent on how far they are ahead or behind. Their constant damage threat forces enemies to prioritize them over other champions most of the time. Since they require to build glass cannon to be effective, they are easy to kill once reaching them. They are countered by assassins who leave little counterplay when played optimally.

*My thoughts: The success of marksmen stands and falls with the support of their team which leaves them super vulnerable outside of duo lanes and their team. Changing their gameplay little bit to increase their own agency opens up marksmen to solo positions which in return leaves more room for duo lanes combinations. I imagine marksmen gaining more tools for self-peel and protection while losing their teamfight value. That makes them less polyvalent and therefore less mandatory to every team composition while also taking away enemy focus from them since they are less of a threat to them. *

What you said makes marksmen fun to play:

  • Having a high, constant and reliable damage output feels good when melting any enemies health bars and the feeling of being unstoppable when enabled by their team. Playing on the edge of blow people up or be blown up instantly feels exciting. Marksmen have easy mechanics but are still hard to play effectively, so they have a high skill expression outside of hitting skillshots.

What you said makes marksmen unfun to play:

  • Being dependent on the team composition to compensate their weaknesses and not able to contribute much in terms of crowd control or utility most of the times.

My thoughts: Some marksmen mains enjoy being the highest threats in the game who get most kills due to their damage output and be the core of their team everyone else has to play around even though this extreme leads to frustrating situations when teammates can’t optimally play around them when constantly being focused which leaves the marksmen not contributing much to their team at all. In my opinion, a player should be focused based more on their individual performance instead of just what champion they play in the first place. The issue can’t be solved without giving up enough teamfight damage to not be focused mandatorily. In addition to that it could be an option to increase the marksmen’s agency by giving them more tools to work on their own so they are less dependent on their team playing properly than they are now. Again, that comes for the cost of being a reliable ranged high damage threat.

What you said makes marksmen fun to play against:

  • It’s easy to kill them when not protected properly and since they are glass canons they just blow up instantly.

What you said makes marksmen unfun to play against:

  • Having to wait on cooldowns gives marksmen a window where they can easily maximize their damage output because they don’t need to pay attention to their positioning which makes it really punishing to miss such against them. When they are also protected properly by their team, it is ´near impossible to take them down while they melt everyone.

*My thoughts: In order to make it more fun to play against marksmen without focusing on blowing them up in an instant, there needs to be more outplay potential for and against them. This requires marksmen to have tools with CC or mobility that gives them room to outplay while changing their playstyle patterns to be more skillshot focused giving their opponents outplay potential as well. *

22 Comments

ZT Xperimentor7 votes

I'd also add that mobility should be a trade off as much as for any utility, why is positioning difficult when they get +20% movement speed from core items? Kiting used to be a player skill, but since season six, it's a passive benefit from building standard; and I doubt their proposed changes will change that.

Ragnaveil6 votes

The fact you took time to compile all of this (I would assume so) is quite fascinating. I hope people viewing this take their time reading this post.

InTheory1 votes

Thank you [sg-soraka]

Ragnaveil1 votes

No problemo, I know the feel of putting hours of work into a post.

Mordepool5 votes

My thoughts: In order to make it more fun to play against marksmen without focusing on blowing them up in an instant, there needs to be more outplay potential for and against them. This requires marksmen to have tools with CC or mobility that gives them room to outplay while changing their playstyle patterns to be more skillshot focused giving their opponents outplay potential as well.

That's fine. IF and only if thier overall damage takes a nose dive in a trade for those tools.

HàrrowR2 votes

I'm an ADC main and i'd take CC,outplay potential,mobility,skillshot and burst over late game AA crit potential any day,the problem is until there's carries like Tristana and Crit does so much damage your team is at a disadvantage late game since you can't match their damage output,similar to how Ezreal or Lucian fall of late game but are very good mid game,you just dont melt the frontline like a hypercarry does

Spacesuit Spiff2 votes

Pretty accurate. I think they should have to find high moments of being able to go wild with dps with impunity, instead of just presuming they get to do that every fight.

Hard to balance them across play levels though. In low elo a team is one adc and 4 people who just want to dive the other adc. Burst per second starts to make sense since that's the only way a lone adc can possibly protect themselves. But if you've got a support, well, bps is just disgusting. Makes me wish adcs were less mandatory so riot didnt have to pander to the ones who play it despite having no team to stand behind.

PB4UAME3 votes

I just don't think ranged damage threats should ever- EVER be the largest, or only damage threat on a team. They invalidate any non-overtuned melee just by design when that's the case. Why pick a melee damage dealer who has to struggle against basically 50-75% more of the game than a ranged champion even has to worry about, if the ranged champion also does more damage anyway?

Manslayer1 votes

Melees usually deal more damage, and ranged usually deal less. I don't know what you're blurting out because the melees carries usually deal more damage than the ranged carries, they're just really vulnerable.

PB4UAME3 votes

You can look at all sorts of metrics, ranged marksmen do the highest amount of damage of any class, except for siege mages, across all regions and Elos. Yasuo, Trynd, Fiora, Cam, Jax, Darius, Garen, Illaoi, Yorick, etc, the melee carries of League, all have lower damage contributions than their ranged counterparts.

One need only look at the steroids given to ranged champions, and the way that offense formulas scale to see how they will always outscale other class archetypes.

Spacesuit Spiff2 votes

Honestly, i think part of the reason ranged squishies are mandatory is so assassins and divers have someone to go after. If the team's damage threat is a Darius or Fiora or similar, they would just kill anyone who wasted half their power budget on even reaching them.

HàrrowR1 votes

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/zpnOsLXd-i-wish-adcs-played-more-like-fightersbattle-mages

This is a post i made a few weeks ago,its funny that i feel this way since season 5 or 6,maybe cause until his rework Graves was my favorite(if not the only one i played) adc and he's still in my eyes what a perfect adc should look like,good 1v1,burst,mobility and dps,the down side is no cc,low or no utility and relatively low range 500-525,so in that regard they are very similar to any fighter who makes up the range difference with one landed cc

On the other hand i'd be cool with more ADCs like Ezreal or something like lethality Varus,they obviously aren't as weak as a normal AA adc alone since they can pretty much burst (poke) you down but the down side is they are weaker in a team fight,and that's okay,i think riot is taking marksmen in that direction with Kai Sa,i mean i go Gunblade on her first item,just a few games ago Rengar came to gank me i WRQ+Gunblade+Auto and manage to kill him,if i played basically any other ADC i'd be free food

Ryusaether1 votes

{quoted} if i played basically any other ADC i'd be free food

Draven

FurriesAreHot2 votes

1v1, mobility, burst, no cc, no utility, low range.

You described a Skirmisher, champs like Fiora, Riven, Yasuo, and a couple others fit this.

Marksmen are simply "ranged auto attackers lacking severely in utility and defense"

HàrrowR1 votes

I'd be glad to see where did you dig up that definition or if any rioter has defined the whole MARKSMEN category as that,since i wouldn't say teemo,kindred and graves are lacking in utility or defense,nor would i say Ashe or Varus lack utility,and Kai Sa,Ezreal and Corki all have good defense,Kai Sa R + BT passive and you get extra 1k hp,Ez and Corki build Trinity and have a good escape, Quinn is one of the champs with the biggest burst in league,Vayne is mobile,good at 1v1,even has cc,no utility and is kinda low range,fits your Skirmisher definition,yet she's a marksmen,but you're right,i'd like them to be more like Skirmishers

FurriesAreHot2 votes

Correction to my previous post:

ADCS are simply such and such. ADCs are the bot lane Marksmen.

Marksmen are characters with a focus on damage from auto attacks.

Vayne really isnt mobile out side of a short range tumble. She is probably the least Marksmen-like ADC behind Corki. She was built more as a duelist, but she is still a little overloaded.

I dont think we should dissolve Marksmen into Skirmishers, since Marksmen are the only class capable of consistent attack damage at a range.

HàrrowR1 votes

Whatever,its funny that i state only the facts,like Quinn has a big burst and Vayne can 1v1 and i get down voted,adc haters really just down vote and get a hate orgasm with anything that has an the acronym ADC in it

FurriesAreHot1 votes

Not sure why you're telling me this. It's true, Quinn and Vayne can 1v1. Thing is, you used it to portray the marksmen class that way, when in reality, Quinn is an assassin/marksmen hybrid and Vayne is a Skirmisher/Marksmen hybrid.

HàrrowR1 votes

And Ashe,Varus,Jhin,Teemo and Kai Sa are mage/marksmen hybrids,also you could say Lucian is a marksmen/skirmisher hybrid by your estimate,im just saying not all marksmen can fit into your narrow definition of range auto attackers that have low defense and utility since a lot of them don't fit into that definition at all

FurriesAreHot1 votes

Ashe, Varus, and Jhin aren't Mage hybrid by any stretch of the imagination. Ashe is a utility carry with her utility being a sizable slow and her Ultimate being a nice stun, but she isn't a hybrid of any other class. She wasn't made with being a caster in mind, and almost all of her post-level 6 damage comes from her autos. Varus is an interesting character. He can build full crit and be a standard marksmen. He can build full lethality and be an AD caster of doom. Lucian isn't a Skirmisher, Skirmishers are powerful 1 on 1 duelists with a single defensive steroid. Lucian lacks any defense, and no, a small side step isn't a defensive steroid. He is what I call a "spell weaver", intertwining his auto attacks with abilities to dish out more damage and auto resets. And to make it clear: Class Definitions can be bent and exceptions exist, example Ashe, the utility carry, and I never claimed they were set in stone every Marksmen is x. And "Range auto attackers with low defense and utility" is hardly narrow.

HàrrowR1 votes

Whatever we are discussing definitions of made up video game characters,i just wish they were less squishy at the cost of some damage that's all

TaroBunni1 votes

Varus's /dance involves him dancing romantically in a waltz with his bow. But really, you're dancing all the time as a marksman, like it or not. Varus

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