Talon - Cutthroat ( E )

Welkc·May 9, 2015·22 votes·5,859 views

Hey everyone. I used to be an avid player of Talon before his silence removal, I still play him from time to time but there are very clearly better options for an ad assassin mid now (zed).

I was doing some talking about it recently with a few people thinking of ways I could suggest to Riot on how they could restore some of his former strength, without overdoing it. I agree that the silence did provide too much power in lane against casters, and with his sheer damage late game it provided no counterplay.

However. I don't feel that completely removing that functionality of Talons kit was the right way to do things. It leaves him vulnerable to many matchups that he previously was strong in.

The main idea I came up with was instead of a silence, which as stated above hinders any counter play. Why not make it so it simply interrupts channeled abilities? It would be a simple form of cc, a large majority of champs have abilities that knockup/back/stun/taunt etc, that cancel a channeled ability, and many of them are instant as well.

Some people will probably say this in response to this. "Talons E is instant and it would be too strong". Look at it this way. Picture a teamfight where the enemy Katarina is channeling her ult. Cho'gath, or Trundle, can easily cancel her ult while staying relatively safe, while both have a slight time before actually canceling the ability, they pose no risk to themselves. The change I mentioned prior would be balanced by the fact that while he yes has canceled the ability, hes now sitting right next to that person, and who knows who else. He's put in a very vulnerable position, and Talon players would agree with me here, especially with sweepers and pink ward trinkets, its not easy surviving. Also remember, its merely canceling their channeled ability. There is nothing stopping that person from then going all out on you.

I feel like a change like this could potentially give Talon so more viability, and a use aside from pure damage. I personally think it would be a fair change, and I think it would be a fairly balanced change.

Let me know what you guys think!

On a side note. I know people who don't like facing Talon will probably be biased, but I would ask you to actually think about it.

86 Comments

foristMay 9, 201514 votes

Dude, discussing talon is pretty pointless. People way too biased when it comes to this champ, but most importantly riot avoids all discussions about him like the plague. If I were to give my 2 cents, I'd say a channel interrupt would be nice, but honestly doesn't make up for the unjustified nerfs he got a while back.

WelkcMay 9, 20156 votes

I wouldn't call the nerfs unjustified, the silence really did give him way too much power in lane. Yes cho has a silence, but the difference is cho isnt going to burst you in under 1.5 seconds unless hes full ap, talon just needs tiamat and a brutalizer and hes rollin.

And not having Talon at the strength he was before his silence removal is good. I mained Talon at the time and I knew it was likely going to be changed at some point, especially with the phasing out of a few silence abilities.

The channel interrupt would give him a sort of half way point. It would be manageable in lane, it might not even affect lane if the enemy laner doesnt have a channeled ability. It would just give Talon more options late game on how he can be useful when all hes got is a slow and some damage.

foristMay 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't call the nerfs unjustified, the silence really did give him way too much power in lane. Yes cho has a silence, but the difference is cho isnt going to burst you in under 1.5 seconds unless hes full ap, talon just needs tiamat and a brutalizer and hes rollin.

And not having Talon at the strength he was before his silence removal is good. I mained Talon at the time and I knew it was likely going to be changed at some point, especially with the phasing out of a few silence abilities.

Yah, debating that is a different topic altogether. I just disagree. An ability cannot logically stay the same for 3 years then all of the sudden become too strong. When you discuss balance with riot, you aren't gonna get any buffs to assassins, only nerfs period.

WelkcMay 9, 20152 votes

As the game progresses, and different champions are introduced, as champions are tweaked, items coming into play or being buffed, can in fact change how good a particular skill may be. I mean, look at Sion. Cinderhulk giving him 25% more bonus hp scaling with his stacking hp/kill makes him more of a monster than he already was. Certain items and certain changes can cause a skill that was previously balanced to be a bit overwhelming. Thats just my opinion and your're welcome to disagree.

foristMay 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

As the game progresses, and different champions are introduced, as champions are tweaked, items coming into play or being buffed, can in fact change how good a particular skill may be. I mean, look at Sion. Cinderhulk giving him 25% more bonus hp scaling with his stacking hp/kill makes him more of a monster than he already was. Certain items and certain changes can cause a skill that was previously balanced to be a bit overwhelming. Thats just my opinion and your're welcome to disagree.

Yah, i honestly don't want to get into a debate about this, but lets be real. There were no new items or meta shifts that put talon over the top. He was as effective at countering mages and being an assassin then as he was at the time of his nerf. Honestly, all it took was a little lcs/competitive exposure (aka: voyboy's useage or pawn's killing the god of mid lane) to get people to start playing him more, and then because he was such a low pick rate, people were uncertain about how to play against him, thus leading to massive qq and eventually riot tagging him for a nerf, under the context of "silences being unhealthy on high burst champions". Its not really debatable in my mind, if a champion who shouldn't be popular is getting too much attention, nerf it. - riot logic

The Bíg TicketMay 10, 20152 votes

That is exactly how I see it aswell. People just weren't used to him to exploit his many weaknesses. He is so weak in lane and extremely reliant on items.

GigahappytownMay 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't call the nerfs unjustified, the silence really did give him way too much power in lane. Yes cho has a silence, but the difference is cho isnt going to burst you in under 1.5 seconds unless hes full ap, talon just needs tiamat and a brutalizer and hes rollin.

And not having Talon at the strength he was before his silence removal is good. I mained Talon at the time and I knew it was likely going to be changed at some point, especially with the phasing out of a few silence abilities.

The channel interrupt would give him a sort of half way point. It would be manageable in lane, it might not even affect lane if the enemy laner doesnt have a channeled ability. It would just give Talon more options late game on how he can be useful when all hes got is a slow and some damage.

Don't forget mobis.

GigahappytownMay 9, 20157 votes

zed and talon play very different and accomplish same task in different ways. talon is the embodiment of the assassin role zed is a ninja

stealthfox94May 10, 20151 votes

I'm glad I'm not the only one who get's annoyed when people say zed is a better Talon.

MikeYeungsSmiteMay 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm glad I'm not the only one who get's annoyed when people say zed is a better Talon.

Cause he aint lol

Welk still missing the point

WelkcMay 10, 20151 votes

I never said that Zed is better than Talon, or that Talon is better than zed.

djjomonMay 9, 20154 votes

It could work, but it's one of many approaches. At this point, I'd like to see to Talon's functionality stay about the same. He's still the easy to pick up AD asssassin, with a high-risk, high-reward play style. But what does he do well that others don't? Stealth, AoE, and high burst you have to commit to. So personally (downvotes always welcome) I'd like to see his numbers scaled up. Make him the raw damage assassin, epitome of glass cannon. The choice between Zed and Talon should be "Talon just does more damage in team fights, hands down" Make Talon the guy who jumps in, kills a squishy, while chunking down the rest of the team in one spell rotation, and then dies.

I know most people won't like this. Just my opinion. But that's what his play style has somewhat become since the removal of his silence. And I'm personally okay with it

WelkcMay 9, 20151 votes

This is actually also a very good idea in my opinion. I've always preferred Talon over Zed in teamfights. The only problem with stealth right now is that it's way too easy to counter. Everyone has access to a pink ward trinket, or a sweeper.

The only issue I can see with this is that people would complain 24/7.

However, I love the part "The choice between Zed and Talon should be "Talon just does more damage in team fights, hands down" Make Talon the guy who jumps in, kills a squishy, while chunking down the rest of the team in one spell rotation, and then dies."

And I can say that you're very accurate there. I can pretty much say that, if youre going to kill someone, and with the number of trinket stuff, your ult isnt a good escape tool. What I do is exactly what you've said. I go in, kill their adc, and if i can get out, great, if not, oh well. its now a 4v4 and they have no adc, I've also done a fair amount of damage to their team, if lucky i may have even killed their apc or support too if they didnt react fast enough.

In my recent games with Talon, I've usually been the first to die, but usually no one else on my team dies, and we either kill all of them for the ace, or most of them and get baron/drag/turrets. Or, just end.

djjomonMay 10, 20151 votes

Thanks for the feed back! I expected most people to hate my idea, except the dying part.

But since I've gotten a positive reaction, time to elaborate! Riot likes buffing a champion's identity, when they can. Currently, Talon's strength is his burst... and not much else. Unless Riot wants to redefine his assassin capabilities, why not work with what he already does?

The Tilted KingMay 10, 20151 votes

I wouldn't want his style to change I'd say I'm almost scared of riot doing anything to him.

WelkcMay 10, 20151 votes

Why though? Yes, he has burst. That's his champion. But he has more pronounced weaknesses than pretty much any other assassin, even akali. Yea she gets countered in the same way with the vision trinkets and sweepers. but she also has 3 charges on her ult that reset. To be safe on talon you have two options.

Save your E and use it to escape. Pro's: Pretty reliable. Con's: You lose that damage amplification, and its also risky to do as you may not make it to your target.
Use your ult as an escape. Pro's: If they dont use a sweeper/trinket, and dont predict where youre going to go, its pretty reliable. Con's: Using it to escape gives the enemy time to leave your ults ring of blades, which drastically reduces your ults damage, and if they do happen to use a sweeper or trinket, as its likely theyll do especially in higher elo, people see you and jump all over you, and if your E is on cd still, which it will be, gl.

Having a few more options to get him in and out would be a healthy change for him, within reason. Of course it would have to be reasonable. Given his single target AND aoe damage is very noticable, having him be safe in teamfights would be unhealthy. But maybe even having his E reset on kills/assists sort of like akali's ult, would be a good change as well.

The Tilted KingMay 10, 20152 votes

why so much emphasis on his E? sure you could technically use it on an enemy to escape, but your still going towards that enemy and are now in their AA range, or use it on an enemy minion which theyll have vision of you for long enough anyway. its not like katarinas shunpo, you cant ward hop, you cant go to ally minions or ally champions. its a gap closer to burst a target down the problem isnt that talon dies in teamfights, its that people go into a 5v5 as talon to begin with. hey sorry team, if i go in there ill die and idk about you but im worth some gold right now... so gl ill rake maybe a few times but if they get too close im out.

assassins dont teamfight, they pick. lets not also forget that talon has another way of making a 5v4 turn into a 4v4 or 3v4 because he can splitpush REALLY hard with a tiamat and a maxed out rake. if they let you push all the way to a turret, you only need to pop youmous and hit Q as soon as its off CD to take a turret under 10 seconds (at the most) They will run to you, thinking they can stop you. they leave the teamfight so your team has a better chance.

depending on who shows up to stop you can probably kill one of them and leave. if you cant kill em period, ult and gtfo. flash jumping walls is never a bad way to gtfo (especially if you can manage to do it without them seeing where u went)

WelkcMay 10, 20151 votes

While I think you have some valid points, and I agree with you on the split pushing part. Talon is still an excellent team fighter, and fighting a 5v5 with him isnt a bad idea, while he has higher risk involved than some other assassins, he can still be a valuable asset in a teamfight, and especially if you have flash, you can turn a fight in your favor very easily.

Issue with split pushing is, that the large majority of games below id say mid - high plat, teams don't know how to properly pressure a team for a split push, or know how to avoid getting engaged on (or engage 4v5 and lose horribly). And that really goes for any champ that can effectively split push. It requires team coordination, which lets be honest, unless you're a 5's team is pretty limited.

SouL1essMay 10, 20152 votes

Make Talon the guy who jumps in, kills a squishy, while chunking down the rest of the team in one spell rotation, and then dies.

Riot already stated that they don't agree with this style of play.

It's not the community, its Riot.

djjomonMay 10, 20151 votes

I must have missed that. Thanks for clarifying

JustMyBassCannonMay 9, 20153 votes

Well, I'm all for the idea of making his E interrupt channels, but there's one other thing that bothers me.

Why don't his Q/E marks make his targets vulnerable to his passive?

foristMay 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Well, I'm all for the idea of making his E interrupt channels, but there's one other thing that bothers me.

Why don't his Q/E marks make his targets vulnerable to his passive?

Because bleed and damage amp are forms of debuff that don't apply cc. His passive only applies to cc'd targets.

JustMyBassCannonMay 9, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am theboxghost,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vz5FHA7H,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-05-09T16:27:28.855+0000)

Because bleed and damage amp are forms of debuff that don't apply cc. His passive only applies to cc'd targets.

No, not mechanic why, thematic and playstyle why.

I know mechanically why it doesn't apply. I'd have to be an idiot not to understand that.

I want to know why, from a balance/playstyle/theme perspective, why you can't Mercy-kill a bleeding target/a target with a slit throat.

foristMay 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

No, not mechanic why, thematic and playstyle why.

I know mechanically why it doesn't apply. I'd have to be an idiot not to understand that.

I want to know why, from a balance/playstyle/theme perspective, why you can't Mercy-kill a bleeding target/a target with a slit throat.

Because the qq would be immense if they made his passive thematic. People on here seem to think that an extra 10% bonus damage on auto attacks for an ad caster would be massively op for some reason.

The Tilted KingMay 9, 20151 votes

If you do the math, his passive is negligible.

You can still 100-0 someone without even finishing full rotation anyway.
Think of it this way. 100 ad. 10 damage. It's next to nothing

foristMay 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you do the math, his passive is negligible.

You can still 100-0 someone without even finishing full rotation anyway.
Think of it this way. 100 ad. 10 damage. It's next to nothing

Exactly, and I 100% agree with you, but what I'm saying is that the players on here don't understand that. Honestly, most will freak out at the very mention of a buff to talon that isn't qol. They wouldn't even consider the fact that his passive is one of the weakest passives in the game atm and has terrible synergy with his kit/play-style.

The Tilted KingMay 9, 20151 votes

Idk if talon needs a buff, but his passive is absolutely useless that idek why the fk riot made it that way in the first place. Imo he's strong and is very underestimated.. He's strong, but he's not so strong to the point ppl QQ about him (like akali, zed, Kat) He really is the healthiest assassin

foristMay 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Idk if talon needs a buff, but his passive is absolutely useless that idek why the fk riot made it that way in the first place. Imo he's strong and is very underestimated.. He's strong, but he's not so strong to the point ppl QQ about him (like akali, zed, Kat) He really is the healthiest assassin

Oh man, you'd be surprised at how many people on here bitch about him. I'm actually kind of shocked and somewhat relieved that none of them have poked their heads in on this thread yet....... knock on wood

The Tilted KingMay 10, 20151 votes

His burst happens under 2 second window so I'm not surprised ppl have issue with him. That said he's not at all op. He's quite definitive of being feed or famine tho. And come late game he can't defend base well and he can't attack a base all that well either

WelkcMay 10, 20151 votes

If you have tri force, you can actually take out towers pretty quick between autoing, using his Q for the sheen proc + aa reset, then aa again, if you have a decent amount of cdr, you can Q every 2-3 autos.

WelkcMay 10, 20151 votes

As am I, so far the large majority of the replies I've gotten here have been great! Well thought out replies that all gave good points and merit to this thread.

Thanks everyone!

WelkcMay 10, 20151 votes

In a sense, Zed has a sort of mercy-kill system. Not the same idea, but if you look at it, he does bonus damage to a "severely damaged target". sort of like you've just described. and look at the complains about zed's passive lol.

The Bíg TicketMay 10, 20153 votes

The silence nerf was never necessary to be honest.

The Y2J ProblemMay 9, 20152 votes

I'm really unsure as to why Riot didn't keep this functionality in. There have been a few champions who had their silences reworked and have kept their channel interrupts - most people bring up Kassadin, but I think Viktor is a more apt example here. You mentioned that the strength of a channel interrupt on Cutthroat would come from its instant cast, but Viktor also has an instant cast with Chaos Storm, and it's an AoE interrupt too.

I could very easily have missed it, but has anyone at Riot commented on why there is no interrupt? As far as I can tell, no one has said anything about it, but hell if I know what Rioters say on these forums.

Mecha MaIphiteMay 10, 20152 votes

The nonexistant slow is also kind of redundant. His E's really only just a blink and some damage amp that you could use to maybe dodge a skillshot.

WelkcMay 10, 20151 votes

Yup, which is why I've also thought of the idea of having his E reset on kill/assist, probably healthiest for just on a kill, or he just becomes another kat or akali jumping around the fight. No one wants that. :P

You can't even proc his passive off a slow that short.

NarvuntienMay 9, 20151 votes

What would it be.. an extremely short stun?

WelkcMay 9, 20151 votes

I was thinking an entirely different / unique form of cc. The skill simply cancels a channeled ability. no stun, no silence, no knockup/back. You dash, and their ability is cancelled. If for ease of understanding or implementation, sure, make it a 0.001 second stun. You would'nt even stop moving, but it would cancel an ability.

5000000000000000May 9, 20152 votes

I think Kassadin silence works by an extremely short silence. It's probably easy to just copy that.

DrCyanideMay 9, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I was thinking an entirely different / unique form of cc.

Entirely different / unique? Viktor already has it on his ultimate! As I recall they replaced the short silence his ult had and gave him that as a compensation.

WelkcMay 9, 20151 votes

Oh ._. I don't play viktor and didn't realize they did that! Thank for you pointing that out to me! :D

WarlockLawMay 9, 20151 votes

Kass also has the same style of interrupt on his q in place of the silence

Vistha KaiMay 9, 20152 votes

Too bad there is literally like 0 channeling abilities in this game. I still don't understand why Ez and Lux a cast time on their ults not channel.

ReikkenMay 9, 20151 votes

a lot of normal casts can also be interrupted. like if you CC Annie while she's casting Q or W, it won't go off

SouL1essMay 10, 20152 votes

But a channel disrupt is not a hard CC nor a silence and therefore cannot lock abilities from being cast.

In fact...if she started to cast her ability you can't interrupt it anyways.

ULTRAF0RCEMay 10, 20152 votes

list of channeled abilities http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Channel

The Tilted KingMay 9, 20151 votes

Even with something like that, I can say I would never do it on an a team fight unless it woulda been an ace like a fed AF Kat. If you do this you are throwing your life away

WelkcMay 9, 20151 votes

Talon does that already anyways with his current kit. Kill adc, die.

The Tilted KingMay 9, 20151 votes

Then your doing it wrong