Zyra needs an Update/Buff/Passive Rework, Bring her Mid Lane BACK!

19 19 19·Feb 1, 2015·22 votes·6,796 views

http://i.imgur.com/ETl8It5.jpg

You see this in item shop where they recommend you to buy Support items. Clearly Riot is treating Zyra more of a Support than a Mid laner and that's very sad for me to see such a thing because I want to see Zyra be treated as what she was made for which is being a mid laner. Zyra needs some updates within her model from classic to all her skins(she needs to look more of plant than just vines around her).

Her passive also needs some work but I believe that it should stay the way it is since the idea of her turning into a plant and sniping is pretty cool but it needs something that would also benefits her when shes laning ya know?

Also I find the fact that her Q and E cost is insane because it goes from the 70's at level 1 all the way to the 90's at level 18 ( but it's MAINLY the early game mana cost that's absurd). Since the mana items have been screwed over it just made Zyra more mana hungry than she already is but that's just me.

If anyone mentions to me about Zyra's plants please don't, because her plants can EASILY die and IS NOT like heimer's turret. Heimer's turret has a HUGE range that spams firing power quickly AND has a power burst charge. Compared to Zyra her Q is her only long range plant but her Q and E DO NOT have a special burst nor do they last forever only up to 10 seconds. And Yes her E can cause slow movement speed but you can only summon up two 2 plants at most during the game.

Comparing: Syndra's (Utility due to stun, slows, and knock backs) secondary is a support but you don't see people treating her mainly like a support.

Morgana( utility due to shield and dual snares) is mostly treated like a support because she's a hard counter towards most supports/ADC's cuz of spell shield and snare.

Annie(utility due to free spammable stun) is treated as a mid AND support at the same level so I wouldn't mind seeing Zyra being treated this way.

84 Comments

FantasySniperFeb 1, 20159 votes

Her biggest flaw is how her plants behave and how easy they are to deal with.

They really need to incorporate more intelligent behavior, or maybe an overall better mechanic.

Zair UmbrasFeb 1, 20156 votes

ACTUALLY.... Her plants at mid lane are incredibly difficult to deal with because to kill them, you have to get into AA range with them and hit them 3 times (2 with abilities, sometimes less if minions hit the plants). If you're in range, you're taking hits. If you're taking hits, you're crying. You have to walk out of the range of them and then walk back into range to AA them if there's minions for them to hit and pray Zyra isn't in range to AA you so her plants refocus you. lol.

FantasySniperFeb 3, 20151 votes

Usually, it's infinitely simpler to just walk out of range and have her plants target minions instead. You can easily kill it without taking damage at that point.

Zair UmbrasFeb 3, 20151 votes

You can, yes, but a good Zyra knows to only drop one seed to poke with. Her plants do 50% less damage when focusing the same target, so to drop 2 plants prior to a Liandry's isn't really good since it's the same damage output for nothing. Her Q has a relatively low CD though so during the time her opponent is backing off to let the plant focus a minion, her Q will be up again to pop up another plant for you to walk back away from. While you're trying to back off to not get stabbed down, you're losing out on farm and experience because you have to walk 751 range away from the Spitter plant since it's range is 750. Normally mana would be a problem, but because of Zyra's bases, she's able to build mana regen items pretty early and do a lot of sustained damage, which is one of the reasons why she's such a great support. Her poke can zone really well and it's on relatively low CD's so you can't do what you do to Sona or Soraka or Zilean where they blow their Q and you jump them because their damage is now gone for a good few seconds.

19 19 19Feb 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vq6E6kA7,comment-id=0007000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-03T02:29:15.163+0000)

You can, yes, but a good Zyra knows to only drop one seed to poke with. Her plants do 50% less damage when focusing the same target, so to drop 2 plants prior to a Liandry's isn't really good since it's the same damage output for nothing. Her Q has a relatively low CD though so during the time her opponent is backing off to let the plant focus a minion, her Q will be up again to pop up another plant for you to walk back away from. While you're trying to back off to not get stabbed down, you're losing out on farm and experience because you have to walk 751 range away from the Spitter plant since it's range is 750. Normally mana would be a problem, but because of Zyra's bases, she's able to build mana regen items pretty early and do a lot of sustained damage, which is one of the reasons why she's such a great support. Her poke can zone really well and it's on relatively low CD's so you can't do what you do to Sona or Soraka or Zilean where they blow their Q and you jump them because their damage is now gone for a good few seconds.

Zilean has more range and does more damage compared to Zyra as a mid laner. I've experimented playing against him as Zyra and he is just obnoxious.

Zair UmbrasFeb 3, 20151 votes

Zilean is an irritation anywhere you go no matter what. His ult has almost no CD after you get 40% CDR, plus with mana items and the fact his Q has such a huge ratio, plus he he has a speed boost that works as a slow AND he can reduce his CD's. He's just an obnoxious champion.

19 19 19Feb 3, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Vq6E6kA7,comment-id=000700000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-03T05:43:35.896+0000)

Zilean is an irritation anywhere you go no matter what. His ult has almost no CD after you get 40% CDR, plus with mana items and the fact his Q has such a huge ratio, plus he he has a speed boost that works as a slow AND he can reduce his CD's. He's just an obnoxious champion.

but his job is to be obnoxious anyways but he's pretty OP as a mid and support.

BorblandFeb 1, 20154 votes

Agreed.

Plants were fine earlier, then they changed the focus long time ago (They "should" prioritize champs, but got worse at focusing them then before) and now the focus goes nuts.

Other annoying consequence of the change: Plants take around 0,5-2 seconds before starting attacking, it's completly random, sometimes they attack nearly instantly after blooming, sometimes they need to wake up, take a cup of coffee, drink it, and then they attack.

LankPantsFeb 1, 20155 votes

I think it would be a good idea to have the plant HP scale up with her AP, something like 5(+1 per 200AP) just so they're a little harder to kill into the late game.

FastAsHeckFeb 1, 20158 votes

she needs:

new passive, a passive that rewards you for dying is not a good one (well, for a champion like and it is, because they are intresting. but and passives are boring).
better AI on plants!!!
mana changes

Edge of DaybreakFeb 1, 20154 votes

i think it would go a long way if we made it so plants do not switch targets unless zyra actually auto attacks a new target. It sucks that an enemy laner can just walk backwards a few steps and they are safe or worse when the plants just swap targets for no reason.

4NoxiousHoursFeb 1, 20154 votes

{quoted}

i think it would go a long way if we made it so plants do not switch targets unless zyra actually auto attacks a new target. It sucks that an enemy laner can just walk backwards a few steps and they are safe or worse when the plants just swap targets for no reason.

This is also another thing I forgot to mention, her plants SHOULD attack enemy champion as a priority FIRST.

AvariceSynFeb 1, 20154 votes

When she first came out, I instantly purchased her bundle and played Zyra almost exclusively, in every role, even as an AD Carry, and beyond her nerfs.

I don't have a problem with her being officially labelled as a support (although she lacks traditional support abilities that provide utility for another player on the team). I don't have much of a problem at all with the state that she's in currently except for the fact that I can't seem to quick combo anymore (WEWQ) and have the desired effect of Snare->Plant, DMG->Plant, and instead end up with either two of the same plant, my abilities going off and then the seeds are sitting there as seeds, or only getting one plant and having a seed next to it.

I'm not sure if this is a personal issue, such as my hardware not executing commands at the speed that I used to (went from 15fps on a laptop to 130+fps on a desktop) or if there was some critical change to her cast time/animation/etc.,

Thoughts/experiences?

Edit: realized I got off track with that. I do think that in the face of the Heimer rework, Zyra's plants are FAR too squishy. I remember that previously Vlad was the #1 Killer of my plants, now it seems like anyone can do it in an abiltiy and auto, putting her in a bad spot in that regard as being neither a burst mage nor a control mage with sustained damage anymore.

I supppose what I really meant to say is that nerfs to damage and ap values have knocked her out of the burst category, and her plants being so weak have kept her out of sustained. It's not hard to see how she's fallen into being a support.

TalamareFeb 1, 20153 votes

Her mana costs are not that high, they are completely in line with other mages

The proper way to balance her would likely be to further increase the strength of her plants

Since if you just increase the raw power of her Q and E, she just becomes a different Lux again...

4NoxiousHoursFeb 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Her mana costs are not that high, they are completely in line with other mages

The proper way to balance her would likely be to further increase the strength of her plants

Since if you just increase the raw power of her Q and E, she just becomes a different Lux again...

but how would putting strength towards her plants be any help? like what that dude says her plants are very squishy and it only last for 10 seconds. Plants are ment to be fragile and yes they can hurt like for example thorns but if anything, her Q could be the one that causes slow movement speed while her E is the one that causes bleeding damage. I mean... it makes sense if you're being poked by a sharp plant lol

Nerf'ing her burst would only make her weaker, her W cool down is A LOT and she can only summon 2 plants, I think 3? idk but Zyra is more of a Utility mage than a burst mage. Similar to Annie/Syndra, but annie can burst hard and has that free 24/7 stun while Syndra is just a bully and burster/extreme utility late game.

5G8Nri0B54Feb 1, 20151 votes

Nerf'ing her burst would only make her weaker, her W cool down is A LOT and she can only summon 2 plants, I think 3? idk but Zyra is more of a Utility mage than a burst mage. Similar to Annie/Syndra, but annie can burst hard and has that free 24/7 stun while Syndra is just a bully and burster/extreme utility late game.

You...ARE aware that in a situation where Riot nerfs Zyra's burst, they'll obviously compensate by buffing her other areas right?

The issue here, and even Morello agrees with this, is that the power of her basic spells are too high and her plants are too weak. That

a) Waters down her identity

and

b) Part of what created the problem with Support Zyra to begin with.

You don't even need to think for 10 seconds before realizing that the solution is to just hit her burst and buff her plants.

Paper1Feb 1, 20151 votes

Not getting involved with this particular argument, but I think you should provide a reference when saying something like "and even Morello agrees with this", or better yet, provide a link AND quote him directly.

5G8Nri0B54Feb 1, 20151 votes

It was a year or more ago back in the old forums. I'll see if I can find it.

edit:

Here

The primary thing I'd like to do to Zyra is to make her MORE about plants, and less burst mage.

It was initially downvoted by dumbasses who think all he'll do is simply shift damage to plants without seeing the bigger and more obvious picture. Gradually it got upvoted by actual Zyra players.

Know what, I'm going to start a thread to see if I can call Morello out to remind him of this.

5G8Nri0B54Feb 1, 20152 votes

I agree with the double post!

(and to do so, nerf her upfront burst and put power into her plants, there are multiple contributions to her becoming OP as a Support, but her burst appears to be the easiest thing to take down a notch on the way to bring her back to mid lane)

Zair UmbrasFeb 1, 20153 votes

"Nerf her burst so she can mid lane better." Wut. Her burst and poke is like... what makes her able to mid or support to begin with..?

5G8Nri0B54Feb 1, 20152 votes

Her burst and poke is like... what makes her able to mid or support to begin with..?

And that's the problem. It's what let her be too good as a Support. Thus Riot nerfed it till she's balanced as a Support, but as a consequence she's now shit as Mid. To make her viable mid again would make her OP as Support again unless Riot does something drastic.

THINK

BorblandFeb 1, 20152 votes

As a Zyra mid main, I have to say she's still very strong, but her last nerfs were hitting her really hard, while she was underplayed already. (The CDR from W 20% -> 10% wtf rito)

I like playing her mid, but her early ratios are just horrible, I only deal damage high late game while I do good damage with Vel'Koz and Ziggs from the beggining.

And add something to her passive when she's alive, I barely do any damage now with it, and it's incredibly hard to hit, since it's extremly narrow, needs some channel time, and do really low damage. The first one was fine, why nerf it ?

manbearswineFeb 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

As a Zyra mid main, I have to say she's still very strong, but her last nerfs were hitting her really hard, while she was underplayed already. (The CDR from W 20% -> 10% wtf rito)

I just wanted to point out zyra was at about ~20% pickrate when they nerfed her,so not really underplayed back then.

RaptameiFeb 2, 20152 votes

She needs her cc buffed to be a viable support, never mind mid laner.

CaterFeb 1, 20151 votes

I don't know how dumb threads keep being upvoted, I feel only the lowest come here on the balance threads.

Zyra already has insane burst, and aoe burst whatsoever. Her poke in lane is insane, because guess what, if you hit something with her plant and Q, it will deal a lot of damage, you can't be like, well, it will die to everything. If you do a WQ, 1 plant hit, it will outdamage any single non-ulti in the game. How about trying to master Zyra instead of calling for buffs, Zyra is already beyond op, only reason people don't play her, because she is a win game champion and not win lane in mid lane.

BorblandFeb 1, 20153 votes

How in the world is Zyra broken ? She wasn't even broken at her release, people were just overreacting because they didn't know how to counter her (Same for nearly all new champs)

I instabuyed her when she was released July 2012, and played her alot, I could see any nerf done to her.

She first got a small nerf on damage, it was fine, not hitting her too hard, still really good. Then she got support, and they nerfed damage again and slowed down the E roots. And they nerfed her passive, making it pretty much useless. Still good, but then she was already a bit subpar.

And recently, they nerfed her W CDR, but add a bit of damage (Nearly nothing). She was already underplayed, so that made her even more unseen.

She's surely playable and viable, but I feel so weak early compared to for example Vel'Koz, they're both good late game, but Vel'Koz still has better damage early, and he has a useful passive.

CaterFeb 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

How in the world is Zyra broken ? She wasn't even broken at her release, people were just overreacting because they didn't know how to counter her (Same for nearly all new champs)

I instabuyed her when she was released July 2012, and played her alot, I could see any nerf done to her.

She first got a small nerf on damage, it was fine, not hitting her too hard, still really good. Then she got support, and they nerfed damage again and slowed down the E roots. And they nerfed her passive, making it pretty much useless. Still good, but then she was already a bit subpar.

And recently, they nerfed her W CDR, but add a bit of damage (Nearly nothing). She was already underplayed, so that made her even more unseen.

She's surely playable and viable, but I feel so weak early compared to for example Vel'Koz, they're both good late game, but Vel'Koz still has better damage early, and he has a useful passive.

Please stop the bs with the "people have no idea how to play against this and that". Any decent player can learn from their mistakes and learn how to play against a champ in some days. While the fact that "people have yet to learn a champion" is true, people having no idea how to play against something is bs. Literally, all you have to learn about fighting Zyra is to not stand in the middle of her plants.

You ever played Zyra? She has always been good, she never had a time, where she couldn't 80-0 anything that she caught in her roots at lvl 6. If you land a Q on someone at lvl 9, it's 290(+0.85AP), one of the strongest poke you are ever going to get and if you are anywhere close to her plant, you are going to get hit multiple times. Whatever you root just gets eaten by your plants too. She even has long autos. Seeds to prevent herself from facechecking.

Zyra just has insane burst with insane aoe, enough to carry really anyone playing her. She has no problem 1-shotting people, severely hurting anyone near them. Unless the opposing team has an insanely fed assassin, you have no problem to single-handedly carry games with Zyra, even if they have a fed assassin, your team might as well try to peel for you. I know a guy who got into challenger, by stopping playing other mids and started spamming Zyra mid.

Zyra is super good in soloqueue, since aoe damage carries when paired with burst, especially in lower brackets. She has bad matchups mid lane against assassins, she is weak against ganks, but she punishes any mistake really hard, so you are not even entitled to lose lane. Literally all you give up is defence and the ability to yolo facecheck.

People usually ask me how to deal damage with Zyra, because whenever they play her, they do absolutely nothing, it just shows that she is skillful and somewhat hard to master.

Zyra is much more than simply playable and viable, she is really strong at the moment. Instead of saying that she is not the best because she is not played competitively and asking for buffs, people might as well give her a try. I know win game champions are usually not that fun to play, because you can't yolo during laning phase, but she is a win game champion.

manbearswineFeb 1, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Please stop the bs with the "people have no idea how to play against this and that". Any decent player can learn from their mistakes and learn how to play against a champ in some days. While the fact that "people have yet to learn a champion" is true, people having no idea how to play against something is bs. Literally, all you have to learn about fighting Zyra is to not stand in the middle of her plants.

Well I mostly agree with you,but when a champion has low enough popularity it can happen in theory,I'm not sure if that's the case with zyra however.

You ever played Zyra?

Yes,have played her a lot,can assure she is complete garbage right now,you are better off with the vast majority of picks both as support and especially mid.

People usually ask me how to deal damage with Zyra, because whenever they play her, they do absolutely nothing, it just shows that she is skillful and somewhat hard to master.

Why do people always have to say this? look she isn't garen,but her mechanics and she herself aren't the most complex,she is about average on the difficulty of her mechanics.

Zyra is much more than simply playable and viable, she is really strong at the moment. Instead of saying that she is not the best because she is not played competitively and asking for buffs, people might as well give her a try. I know win game champions are usually not that fun to play, because you can't yolo during laning phase, but she is a win game champion.

See thing is,and I'm hoping we are talking about support zyra,cause mid zyra is fucking horrible with all the yasuos and zeds that enslave the meta,her laning phase is pretty bad,she both offers less threat and is under bigger threat than most supports,she has some decent matchups but she also has some terrible ones(leona/karma) which most other supports do not,whereas lategame her delayed ult and slow snare aren't very good against hyper mobile assassins(or low range poke(cough xerath cough)),which just ends up with a bad early and bad late.

I mean take nami for example,she also suffers from rather unreliable abilities against assassins,but her ult is still more capable against their mobility(as it can break dashes),she can offer a rather reliable heal and slow,but at the end of the day nami would be trash without her lane bully status,which zyra doesn't have and frankly is the only way an immobile unreliable squishy(both mid and support) can have a chance at viability in the current meta(ask syndra).

VDc0zCqe0wFeb 1, 20151 votes

thing is, she is not a soloq pubstomper like Riven or Shaco or Fiora or such, she is made to be competitively viable, her whole kit is focused to teamfight, CC support and such, and such a champion NEEDS to be competitively viable, if she's not, then she is weak, simple as that

it's not a champ like Shaco who breaks soloq (and is basically made for soloq), no one ever thinks about Shaco being a competitive pick

i don't care the slightest about random people getting challenger and such, you can get challenger by going one trick pony mode, but what does it prove?

it proves nothing, it simply proves that you're good enough to overcome the champs weaknesses

Sightless66Feb 2, 20152 votes

If you land a Q on someone at lvl 9, it's 290(+0.85AP),

.... what? It's 210(+0.65). Who are you thinking of?

CaterFeb 2, 20151 votes

Alright, I didn't reply to a lot of stuff, since we won't reach an agreement anyhow, there are a lot of opinions I or you don't agree with. I don't think that Zed dominates the game, not at all, unless someone's being dumb and goes to somewhere they are not supposed to and fed him. Ever seen a pro player complain about Zed this season? No. It's only the balance section. Also, Zyra is a huge bully in lane, thank you, especially as a support, his one of the greatest presence in lane. The new Syndra with no damage on Q and bugged E can be hardly called a bully.

The thing is, I don't want Zyra to be changed, she is my main support, I enjoy playing her mid too, if people are garbage with her, no reason to play her. This is how started Ahri's flavour of the month period, people started crying for buffs for a perfectly balanced champion.

{quoted}

.... what? It's 210(+0.65). Who are you thinking of?

Use your plants, dummie.

Sightless66Feb 2, 20151 votes

, there are a lot of opinions I or you don't agree with.

I'm not sure you know what all my opinions are. When did all this stuff come up? I made one comment about Zyra's damage numbers. What's all this shit? Who the heck are you responding to?

Ever seen a pro player complain about Zed this season?

On streams, sure. Relating to professional play? Well, they never do that. I don't even remember them complaining about anyone except Warwick. It's not a realistic standard if they never do it anyway. If they could be complaining, they could just play it themselves.

I personally think he is one of the strongest champions in the game right now, in large part because of his high degree of safety. That by itself isn't a major problem, but I do get very annoyed at how Riot will always take the smallest steps possible when looking at their favored champions but they'll use a "nerf now, ask questions later" policy for many others. That's a wider issue than J

Also, Zyra is a huge bully in lane, thank you, especially as a support, his one of the greatest presence in lane.

I agree. She is. I never said I didn't. I play Zyra quite a bit.

The new Syndra with no damage on Q and bugged E can be hardly called a bully.

Again, I agree. I never said otherwise. Seriously dude, who are you talking to?

The thing is, I don't want Zyra to be changed, she is my main support..... This is how started Ahri's flavour of the month period

I think she could use minor changes. Increasing the prevalence of the plants on her kit wouldn't be a terrible thing. I actually think that what has happened to Ahri is a good thing. Sure, she's op right now, but that will be fixed quickly, and she's significantly more interesting than the "E one person and blow them up" Ahri that she was.

Use your plants, dummie.

Ah, spend plants on basic harass at level 9. You can't always do that if there is risk of being punished. Not always possible or desirable. Besides, that's a Q-W combo. The Q itself doesn't do that.

CaterFeb 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure you know what all my opinions are. When did all this stuff come up? I made one comment about Zyra's damage numbers. What's all this shit? Who the heck are you responding to?

On streams, sure. Relating to professional play? Well, they never do that. I don't even remember them complaining about anyone except Warwick. It's not a realistic standard if they never do it anyway. If they could be complaining, they could just play it themselves.

I personally think he is one of the strongest champions in the game right now, in large part because of his high degree of safety. That by itself isn't a major problem, but I do get very annoyed at how Riot will always take the smallest steps possible when looking at their favored champions but they'll use a "nerf now, ask questions later" policy for many others. That's a wider issue than J

I agree. She is. I never said I didn't. I play Zyra quite a bit.

Again, I agree. I never said otherwise. Seriously dude, who are you talking to?

I think she could use minor changes. Increasing the prevalence of the plants on her kit wouldn't be a terrible thing. I actually think that what has happened to Ahri is a good thing. Sure, she's op right now, but that will be fixed quickly, and she's significantly more interesting than the "E one person and blow them up" Ahri that she was.

Ah, spend plants on basic harass at level 9. You can't always do that if there is risk of being punished. Not always possible or desirable. Besides, that's a Q-W combo. The Q itself doesn't do that.

I was talking all around to the replies I got, only the last part about using seeds was for you. I mainly replied to posts about Zyra being trash early and late and Zed being way too dominant. They are simple opinions that are not true.

It's kinda sad that Riot enjoys guting champions, but on the flipside, some champions remain decent and people just leave them, so true mains can play them without being bothered.

On the Ahri part, I'm mainly commenting about the 4.12 patch, where they reduced her mana cost, as a main, I've never needed that buff and it only caused Ahri to become popular, basically was a fuck you for Ahri mains. The current change should be fine once they tune it down, tho I'm afraid that she will be way too strong, knowing Riot's balance team, they would never nerf Ahri to the point, where people would stop playing her.

Anyhow, as of now, I don't want Zyra to be changed, if they buff her, it would probably like the Ahri buffs in 4.12, completely useless for mains, useful for anyone, who didn't play Zyra before. It would just basically cause others to snatch Zyra away from me. I'm happy that no one picks her.

Sightless66Feb 2, 20151 votes

I was talking all around to the replies I got

Then you may wish to respond to them individually. They won't see them if you just respond to me.

CaterFeb 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Then you may wish to respond to them individually. They won't see them if you just respond to me.

I don't wish to continue the arguement, tho.

Sightless66Feb 2, 20151 votes

Then why post at all? What is the point of writing up something you do not wish to be seen?

CaterFeb 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Then why post at all? What is the point of writing up something you do not wish to be seen?

Someone has to restore faith in the balance section. Still waiting for the person.

Paper1Feb 1, 20151 votes

I played a lot of mid zyra last season, and in my opinion, I don't think she needs a rework. I'm not sure if going into specifics into why will persuade some of you who have already posted. But I will say this:

Zyra in mid is a squishy, immobile poke/push Mage. She IS going to be weak early. You don't really summon the plants expecting too much autoattack damage. That's a bonus to the damage you get from landing the w and q together. when placed properly, some enemies can't clear these without eating some autos. Once Zyra gets items, she is capable of dealing tons of burst damage or damage over time if you opt for a Liandrys/Rylais build. She also has powerful wave clear and conterengage with Her ulti.

The point is Zyra is balanced in the sense that in my opinion she has meaningful strengths and weaknesses. the only thing I would maybe consider changing is to make the passive wind up time shorter. Right now it takes two seconds or so before you can activate it, which allows too much time for the 100 hp opponent to walk away from a skill shot that is already difficult to hit with its short width.

manbearswineFeb 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Zyra in mid is a squishy, immobile poke/push Mage. She IS going to be weak early.

You see thing is all immobile mages kind of need to be bullies to have a chance in the current meta,let's say you go against a zed,so he has an advantage early(cause you claim that to be fair),then he shoves the lane,you can't follow him(cause he will kill you),you can shove the lane but you don't deal much damage to tower and will open yourself to ganks(and you don't have mobility),while zed will go roam and snowball other lanes,then he will proceed to splitpush which you once again can't deal with,as the only thing you are good at are teamfights.

If you look at pretty much every single immobile mage,every one of the is a lane bully,as they need that leverage on their opponents capability to roam.

Paper1Feb 1, 20151 votes

Soooo your point is? I was never talking about the current meta, but let me clarify. Zyra IS a lane bully in the sense that her q is relatively long range (and so is e although zyra's tend to max q for the damage). As a consequence she is squishy and immobile so she can easily die to ganks. My overall statement about a weak laning phase is also that her mana pool is small and she needs the items to be able to stay relevant later as a burst Mage.

Your example just so happens to be about one of zyra's counters imo, so again I don't really get your point. If your point is that Zyra cant counter the roam of zed, then I disagree. Zyra is very good at pushing, so if zed happens to appear in another lane, then Zyra can definitely push down a tower or deal a chunk of damage to it.

In teamfights, zyra's ult screams counterengage, which becomes less useful when against assassins (think more spread out enemies). similarly, q and e won't become as useful against high mobility. In a 1v1 scenario when defending against such champions, your aim as Zyra is to defend the turret, and remember zhonyas helps prevent dives (zed can't proc ult damage), so really you have plenty of tools to defend against a split push. Zed deals with this by outrotating her, and that's what really makes Zed a counter to Zyra IMO. That doesn't contradict the statement about roaming in the previous paragraph, since that refers to different phases of the game.

just because a champion doesn't mould into the meta, doesn't mean that she's under or over powered. if theres any reason why she isn't in the meta, look at orianna. she is very similar to Zyra, but she also has better utility.

manbearswineFeb 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Soooo your point is? I was never talking about the current meta,

So what were you talking about? the meta a year ago? the meta in a year from now? arbitrarily talking in a vacum with complete disregard to everything? a champions strength is defined by how he fairs in the current meta,that simply is what champion power is all about.

but let me clarify. Zyra IS a lane bully in the sense that her q is relatively long range (and so is e although zyra's tend to max q for the damage).

long range compared to what? master yi's autoattacks? her q is standard range for that sort of ability.

As a consequence she is squishy and immobile so she can easily die to ganks.

zyra is no xerath,and even he has better defensive capabilities and a much longer range,syndra q has the same range as zyra q,just that she can move while casting it,and has her e which is far stronger both defensively and offensively.

My overall statement about a weak laning phase is also that her mana pool is small and she needs the items to be able to stay relevant later as a burst Mage.

needing items for lategame(which isn't true for zyra at all,she is one of the least item reliant mid laners(I mean they help,as always),there's a reason she's most played as support and being gold reliant isn't that reason) doesn't make a laning phase weak,big mana costs do however translate into a weakness,and as I've said to stand a chance in the current meta you either need to be a bully,have mobility,or both.

Your example just so happens to be about one of zyra's counters imo, so again I don't really get your point. If your point is that Zyra cant counter the roam of zed, then I disagree. Zyra is very good at pushing, so if zed happens to appear in another lane, then Zyra can definitely push down a tower or deal a chunk of damage to it.

zyra can push okay(it's not great,most mid laners can push as hard),her ability to take down a tower isn't,and no,unless he roams for 2 hours you won't take down the tower,it's not just that,if he returns early and lane is pushed,you are now(an immobile squishy) are forced to overextend in order to cs,good luck if the jungler chooses to capitalize on that,as to zed being a counter,would you prefer to go against fizz/ahri/leblanc/yasuo/xerath? that's why you judge a champions strength by the meta,zyra gets crushed by every single serious mid laner,ofc if they send urgot mid you can handle that,but why would anyone do that,and more importantly why would I judge her strength by how she deals with idiotic picks?

In teamfights, zyra's ult screams counterengage, which becomes less useful when against assassins (think more spread out enemies).

also being counterintiation it doesn't work against poke as well(xerath),and we pretty much went over most meta mids.

similarly, q and e won't become as useful against high mobility. In a 1v1 scenario when defending against such champions, your aim as Zyra is to defend the turret, and remember zhonyas helps prevent dives (zed can't proc ult damage), so really you have plenty of tools to defend against a split push. Zed deals with this by outrotating her, and that's what really makes Zed a counter to Zyra IMO. That doesn't contradict the statement about roaming in the previous paragraph, since that refers to different phases of the game.

see thing is zhonyas is neat and all,and will help you alot against zed in teamfights,but late when he starts split pushing,he is perfectly capable of killing you under tower with it,it's not just that,in order to deal with a split pusher you need to get to the place he is splitpushing,and if he,or pretty much anyone else in his team catches you on the way there,you are very much dead,so no,zyra cannot deal with splitpush.

just because a champion doesn't mould into the meta, doesn't mean that she's under or over powered. if theres any reason why she isn't in the meta, look at orianna. she is very similar to Zyra, but she also has better utility.

Yeah no,if I straight up delete orianna zyra will still never get picked,they will just go with xerath/zed/fizz/ahri/leblanc/etc whatever is left open,am sick of this idiotic excuse,orianna doesn't overshadow zyra,zyra is just bad and orianna isn't.

and just to be clear,if a champion doesn't fit well into the meta,that champions sucks,that basically what meta means,ofc meta can shift,but assassins have dominated it long enough for the excuse that maybe the meta will shift in zyra's way to become stupid,time to fit zyra into the meta(also lux/brand/etc),same as they did with xerath.

19 19 19Feb 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So what were you talking about? the meta a year ago? the meta in a year from now? arbitrarily talking in a vacum with complete disregard to everything? a champions strength is defined by how he fairs in the current meta,that simply is what champion power is all about.

long range compared to what? master yi's autoattacks? her q is standard range for that sort of ability.

zyra is no xerath,and even he has better defensive capabilities and a much longer range,syndra q has the same range as zyra q,just that she can move while casting it,and has her e which is far stronger both defensively and offensively.

needing items for lategame(which isn't true for zyra at all,she is one of the least item reliant mid laners(I mean they help,as always),there's a reason she's most played as support and being gold reliant isn't that reason) doesn't make a laning phase weak,big mana costs do however translate into a weakness,and as I've said to stand a chance in the current meta you either need to be a bully,have mobility,or both.

zyra can push okay(it's not great,most mid laners can push as hard),her ability to take down a tower isn't,and no,unless he roams for 2 hours you won't take down the tower,it's not just that,if he returns early and lane is pushed,you are now(an immobile squishy) are forced to overextend in order to cs,good luck if the jungler chooses to capitalize on that,as to zed being a counter,would you prefer to go against fizz/ahri/leblanc/yasuo/xerath? that's why you judge a champions strength by the meta,zyra gets crushed by every single serious mid laner,ofc if they send urgot mid you can handle that,but why would anyone do that,and more importantly why would I judge her strength by how she deals with idiotic picks?

also being counterintiation it doesn't work against poke as well(xerath),and we pretty much went over most meta mids.

see thing is zhonyas is neat and all,and will help you alot against zed in teamfights,but late when he starts split pushing,he is perfectly capable of killing you under tower with it,it's not just that,in order to deal with a split pusher you need to get to the place he is splitpushing,and if he,or pretty much anyone else in his team catches you on the way there,you are very much dead,so no,zyra cannot deal with splitpush.

Yeah no,if I straight up delete orianna zyra will still never get picked,they will just go with xerath/zed/fizz/ahri/leblanc/etc whatever is left open,am sick of this idiotic excuse,orianna doesn't overshadow zyra,zyra is just bad and orianna isn't.

and just to be clear,if a champion doesn't fit well into the meta,that champions sucks,that basically what meta means,ofc meta can shift,but assassins have dominated it long enough for the excuse that maybe the meta will shift in zyra's way to become stupid,time to fit zyra into the meta(also lux/brand/etc),same as they did with xerath.

i love you

Paper1Feb 2, 20151 votes

Nice of you to love a guy who didn't bother reading someone's argument. He's also in fact wrong.

Paper1Feb 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So what were you talking about? the meta a year ago? the meta in a year from now? arbitrarily talking in a vacum with complete disregard to everything? a champions strength is defined by how he fairs in the current meta,that simply is what champion power is all about.

This discussion is not about the meta, its about "Zyra needs an Update/Buff/Passive Rework, Bring her Mid Lane BACK!". I can completely disregard everything you have said about the meta by saying this: Graves is currently in the meta and he wasn't put back into the meta because of a rework. Maybe you can argue the meta has shifted, but really that's bullshit. Graves before he started being popular again still had the same kit and the same numbers since the last time he was patched significantly, which was a while ago. I'm here to talk about whether Zyra is balanced in consideration to her kit and numbers because of this.

long range compared to what? master yi's autoattacks? her q is standard range for that sort of ability.

Long range compared to most melee assassins you see, and even several ranged champions. You would know this if you have played against a lot of AD assassins at a high level.

zyra is no xerath,and even he has better defensive capabilities and a much longer range,syndra q has the same range as zyra q,just that she can move while casting it,and has her e which is far stronger both defensively and offensively.

Just stop comparing champions. Zyra disengages in a different way that both of those, and she does it better than both of those at different points of the game.

needing items for lategame(which isn't true for zyra at all,she is one of the least item reliant mid laners(I mean they help,as always),there's a reason she's most played as support and being gold reliant isn't that reason) doesn't make a laning phase weak,big mana costs do however translate into a weakness,and as I've said to stand a chance in the current meta you either need to be a bully,have mobility,or both.

Sure, but she is item reliant if shes not allowed to get the gold fast enough. However that's not what how we should measure the strength of Zyra. One of the things that's more important is that is she overly weak/strong when she has the same amount of item power as everyone else, and the answer is emphatically no.

zyra can push okay(it's not great,most mid laners can push as hard),her ability to take down a tower isn't,and no,unless he roams for 2 hours you won't take down the tower,it's not just that,if he returns early and lane is pushed,you are now(an immobile squishy) are forced to overextend in order to cs,good luck if the jungler chooses to capitalize on that,as to zed being a counter,would you prefer to go against fizz/ahri/leblanc/yasuo/xerath? that's why you judge a champions strength by the meta,zyra gets crushed by every single serious mid laner,ofc if they send urgot mid you can handle that,but why would anyone do that,and more importantly why would I judge her strength by how she deals with idiotic picks?

Yes, she will take down the tower. I've done it on several occasions. You may/may not be forced to overextend to cs depending on whether your wave has been destroyed by his tower, and even if it is, smart players can always recall why they think its appropriate. "Zyra gets crushed by every single serious mid laner"... well no. I don't think you can make sweeping statements like that. I can give points against any of those lane matchups where Zyra does have an advantage at some point. For instance, how do you think fizz is going to properly farm against Zyra? if you think of a way, I guarantee that fizz shouldn't be getting out of that with 100 percent hp.

see thing is zhonyas is neat and all,and will help you alot against zed in teamfights,but late when he starts split pushing,he is perfectly capable of killing you under tower with it,it's not just that,in order to deal with a split pusher you need to get to the place he is splitpushing,and if he,or pretty much anyone else in his team catches you on the way there,you are very much dead,so no,zyra cannot deal with splitpush.

Did you even read my quote? I didn't say Zyra could deal with the splitpush. Try again : "Zed deals with this by outrotating her"

Yeah no,if I straight up delete orianna zyra will still never get picked,they will just go with xerath/zed/fizz/ahri/leblanc/etc whatever is left open,am sick of this idiotic excuse,orianna doesn't overshadow zyra,zyra is just bad and orianna isn't.

and just to be clear,if a champion doesn't fit well into the meta,that champions sucks,that basically what meta means,ofc meta can shift,but assassins have dominated it long enough for the excuse that maybe the meta will shift in zyra's way to become stupid,time to fit zyra into the meta(also lux/brand/etc),same as they did with xerath.

You need to calm down then. Right now, people will pick Orianna over Zyra, and its not because Zyra is bad at all. I can list off reasons why but I don't think you want to hear them. Just read my very first post again and thats literally all you need to know. That is basically a good summary of Zyra as I see it and its not really good to nitpick about it with quoting, because alot of the condensed statements I made there are based on A LOT of factors, and I don't want to sit at my computer all day just to analyze them with you.

We fundamentally disagree then: Just because a champion isn't in the meta, doesn't mean it sucks. Zyra has meaninigful strengths and weaknesses as I described earlier, and if you disagree, then you either haven't played the champion enough or you are playing a different game than everyone else.

manbearswineFeb 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This discussion is not about the meta, its about "Zyra needs an Update/Buff/Passive Rework, Bring her Mid Lane BACK!". I can completely disregard everything you have said about the meta by saying this: Graves is currently in the meta and he wasn't put back into the meta because of a rework. Maybe you can argue the meta has shifted, but really that's bullshit. Graves before he started being popular again still had the same kit and the same numbers since the last time he was patched significantly, which was a while ago. I'm here to talk about whether Zyra is balanced in consideration to her kit and numbers because of this.

You're completely wrong about graves,aside from the buffs he got last year,and nerfs to his competition,the hp changes which benefitted other bursters(lissandra,leblanc,syndra) benefit him as well,so the meta did in fact shift in his direction.

Long range compared to most melee assassins you see, and even several ranged champions. You would know this if you have played against a lot of AD assassins at a high level.

zed's q is 900 range,already longer,and can also be combined with his w for even more,or are we going to start comparing skillshots to targeted abilities? zyra's range is mediocare at best.

Just stop comparing champions. Zyra disengages in a different way that both of those, and she does it better than both of those at different points of the game.

Their lategame is different,but my point was their laning is a hell lot stronger,to cement my point that that's what it takes for an immobile mage to be relevant in the current meta,and ofc I'll keep comparing champions,even you yourself blame orianna for zyra not being picked,fact is I can make any champions op/underpowered by nerfing/buffing everyone else,a champions strength is defined by his competition,which in turn is dictated by the meta.

Sure, but she is item reliant if shes not allowed to get the gold fast enough.

No. Zyra is not item reliant.

However that's not what how we should measure the strength of Zyra. One of the things that's more important is that is she overly weak/strong when she has the same amount of item power as everyone else, and the answer is emphatically no.

Look,if an assassins falls behind,he falls behind hard,doing very little,if he goes ahead he becomes nigh unstoppable,mages both snowball less when ahead and fall off less when behind,that has always been the case.

Yes, she will take down the tower. I've done it on several occasions.

She doesn't have azir's tower burst,nor zeds or talons ad,nor can she roam like leblanc and if she is caught overextended by an assassin she's pretty screwed as well,she both lacks the safety and the damage to effectively push down towers.

You may/may not be forced to overextend to cs depending on whether your wave has been destroyed by his tower, and even if it is, smart players can always recall why they think its appropriate.

and smart players will know how to punish your overextension.

"Zyra gets crushed by every single serious mid laner"... well no. I don't think you can make sweeping statements like that. I can give points against any of those lane matchups where Zyra does have an advantage at some point. For instance, how do you think fizz is going to properly farm against Zyra? if you think of a way, I guarantee that fizz shouldn't be getting out of that with 100 percent hp.

Let me give you a quick guide on how to farm fizz vs zyra: step 1:farm zyra step 2:farm creeps step 3:farm bot lane step 4:profit

Did you even read my quote? I didn't say Zyra could deal with the splitpush. Try again : "Zed deals with this by outrotating her"

"so really you have plenty of tools to defend against a split push." see thing is every split pusher can outrotate her,most can kill her under tower,so no,she can't deal with a splitpush.

You need to calm down then. Right now, people will pick Orianna over Zyra, and its not because Zyra is bad at all. I can list off reasons why but I don't think you want to hear them.

See thing is their strengths don't even overlap much,is orianna a counterintiation focused mage? We both know she isn't,she is just a generalistic pick and her strengths overlap with zyra as much as they do with say xerath/syndra or even fizz,but they are capable of seeing play whereas zyra isn't.

Just read my very first post again and thats literally all you need to know. That is basically a good summary of Zyra as I see it and its not really good to nitpick about it with quoting, because alot of the condensed statements I made there are based on A LOT of factors, and I don't want to sit at my computer all day just to analyze them with you.

I remember the last time I saw mid zyra see competitive play(possibly last time in general as well) it was vs lee and khazix,and when the game ended in the interview alexich(who was playing khazix) said that what helped give them an advantage wasn't that zyra was picked over orianna,but that you don't pick zyra into a playmaking jungler such as lee(too bad all of them are),she get's destroyed by meta mid laners and things get even worse when junglers get involved.

We fundamentally disagree then: Just because a champion isn't in the meta, doesn't mean it sucks.

How meta a champion is is the very definition of strength,mind you this isn't just black and white,and there are different degrees of being meta,zyra just happens to be very not meta=sucks very hard(mid zyra that is,support zyra sucks in her own right,albeit less so than mid zyra).

Zyra has meaninigful strengths and weaknesses as I described earlier,

and pretty much every serious mid laner has more strengths and less weaknesses.

and if you disagree, then you either haven't played the champion enough or you are playing a different game than everyone else.

Yeah I have a lot of zyra games and games in general,so this is definetly not true,you should try to reconsider the other option then: that you are wrong.

Paper1Feb 2, 20151 votes

Ill reply once I can really be bothered. At the end of the day, I've played enough games to know where Zyra is right now, and clearly you are just going to ignore my arguments, so there's no point in continuing this conversation. Continue being narrow-minded my friend. I've listened to you enough and responded appropriately. Maybe you should do the same..

P.S: dont be patronising and treating me like the inferior. I was diamond three last season so I know what im talking about.

manbearswineFeb 2, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Ill reply once I can really be bothered. At the end of the day, I've played enough games to know where Zyra is right now,

So have I.

and clearly you are just going to ignore my arguments, so there's no point in continuing this conversation.

I've responded to every single one of them.

Continue being narrow-minded my friend.

Also homophobic,narcissistic,racist and some more buzzwords.

I've listened to you enough and responded appropriately. Maybe you should do the same..

Which I have...? I've responded to every argument you've made so far.

P.S: dont be patronising and treating me like the inferior. I was diamond three last season so I know what im talking about.

Well I was diamond 3 as well(before trolling a bit in the preseason and going to diamond 4) and I know what I'm talking about as well,and I'm not patronising,some of my replies are short because some things just don't need analysis,for example in my minor joke about fizz(it's funny cause it's true)- fizz just crushes zyra in lane,just ask any fizz main about that,fizz vs zyra isn't even a matchup,it's just fizz facerolling.

Paper1Feb 2, 20151 votes

Alright, well sorry. Today has just been frustrating for me.

Anyway, I don't really want to argue about this anymore. It just seems like you quoted stuff, and that's great and all, but it's like with the zed split pushing argument I agreed with you and I think maybe there was some miscommunication.

Now, with fizz vs Zyra, I just don't think fizz always crushes Zyra. Like if the Zyra manages to play cautiously and q fizz while he's trying to auto, then the only way fizz can trade back is if he either q dashes or troll poles toward me, but that's not going to happen if I'm far enough back right?

manbearswineFeb 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Alright, well sorry. Today has just been frustrating for me.

Well in these forums people tend to be asinine,so at this point I don't blame people for being frustrated anymore.

Anyway, I don't really want to argue about this anymore. It just seems like you quoted stuff, and that's great and all, but it's like with the zed split pushing argument I agreed with you and I think maybe there was some miscommunication.

Somewhat,well there's a reason zyra is mostly played as a support,as a lot of her mid weaknesses get less notable when played as a support,her immobility becomes less of a burden,as her competition is less mobile and bot lane is more warded,she also isn't supposed to deal with split push(as it's mostly not the support's job) or her opposing laners roaming,and can even roam a bit herself as being a support she has less focus on damage and framing and can go for mobility boots,this is why zyra with her current kit is unlikely to ever be as strong of a mid laner as she is a support(not saying that support zyra is strong,in fact I'd argue the opposite,my point is support zyra will always be stronger(or less weak) than mid zyra),but even as a support she suffers from enough problems,her highly delayed kit(slow moving snare,delayed ult) just doesn't work well against the mobile assassins and junglers of the current meta(or xeraths large range for that matter),and mobility is getting worse by the minute,ever tried playing zyra vs yasuo or kalista? she's not going to comeback by shifts,not with mobility creep(cough power creep cough) going as strong as it is right now.

Now, with fizz vs Zyra, I just don't think fizz always crushes Zyra. Like if the Zyra manages to play cautiously and q fizz while he's trying to auto, then the only way fizz can trade back is if he either q dashes or troll poles toward me, but that's not going to happen if I'm far enough back right?

Well I could make a long post about this,about her mana costs,about how she needs to cs with autoattacks in order to not run out of mana,putting her in danger,about how fizz can last hit under tower,and about how she would be jungle fodder if she overextends in that lane,but think about it this way: What kind of matchup is better for fizz than zyra? xerath has a bigger range,and can bully even harder,syndra as well(as in bullying,her range is same as zyras) on top of being able to break his q,leblanc and zed have mobility,orianna can both zone harder and has her shield and speed boost to help her defend herself,as far as fizz is concerned zyra is by far easier than all of them,now if you would argue that fizz is so bad that he can handle zyra but gets crushed by the others that's one thing,but is that really something you believe(Well I mean that's possible with the recent "changes" to him,but let's focus on something more familiar for this matter,as it's just an example-pre 5.2 fizz)? zyra is as favorable a matchup for fizz as it gets.

CupidlyApr 25, 20151 votes

This is actually quite comical that you think Fizz has trouble in lane against Zyra. Fizz vs Zyra is not even considered a match-up. Zyra may as well just switch lanes and go elsewhere because that Fizz may just end up being 10/0/0 in the first 15 minutes. You clearly have not played Zyra enough to know that she really does need a buff in the current meta. Riot nerfed so many aspects of Zyra that she can barely be called "Rise of the thorns" as opposed to a withered leaf in comparison to so many other mid-laners. It's disgustingly sad, and it is true--actually. She does need a revamp somehow. This is so frustrating because I love Zyra and seeing my favourite champion wither away is so displeasing. So, for god sake, BUFF HER. Give her more movement speed, change the speed of her root, give her something that can make her viable in the midlane again. Please.