Sona win rate is 58% post-patch

ACENOX·Jul 14, 2016·46 votes·19,916 views

http://euw.op.gg/statistics/champion/

this is the numbers of how she did today

rip

239 Comments

KONO RUBICK DAJul 14, 201662 votes

I see that rammus has 58% win rate.

should we nerf him? i don't really trust the win rate of 1 day.

NavaruneJul 14, 201627 votes

I don't disagree, but an 8% increase in win percentage in a single day is pretty extreme. I don't expect any immediate changes just because of one day, but I think it is definitely telling on how much of a power increase she's had with the patch.

KONO RUBICK DAJul 14, 20167 votes

yes, she gained power i don't deny it

ElikainJul 14, 20169 votes

It really isn't. Sona got significant QoL changes via some neat buffs that actually make her do things in a more prominent way instead of her being an aura holder. People are not used to her new damage and abilities and considering that the patch was yesterday, it's too early to tell whether she is oppressive or not. The usual counters for her still are Braum, Blitz, Thresh and Leona or any assassin.

##At the moment i'm looking at OP's link, Sona's winrate across all ELOs is 51.35%. If the numbers change this drastically after a few hours, then it's too early to tell what is her current standing after her long awaited buffs.

Fishy WarriorJul 15, 20162 votes

You are looking at the stats for the most recent 30 days, which includes other patches. click "today" under the "time" thing.

ElikainJul 15, 20162 votes

Yes but that's the problem. People shouldn't be looking at day to day win rates, especially for champions that got a buff. Sure, that means Sona is stronger than she used to be but in no way it can indicate this early that she's super strong. She might be but it needs to level off during the next week or so to fully understand what's exactly over the top.

NavaruneJul 15, 20162 votes

No one is disagreeing on the point that it needs further observation, but the fact that she showed an abnormally significant boost just after that patch is worth noting. Also, bear in mind that Sona has a relatively simple playstyle as compared to other champions, meaning these buffs will be noticeable by the larger portion of the playerbase in a shorter amount of time than a buff on, say, LeBlanc.

BlåbæretJul 14, 20168 votes

Rammus is actually sleeper OP.

KeitronJul 14, 20161 votes

I dont know where you see 58% winrate but the pickrate/winrate is what tells if a champion is OP not just the winrate. If a very small experience playerbase plays the one champion of course they are going to win more and have the champions winrate be high but if a champion is played by every pleb ever and is winning a lot its broken.

KONO RUBICK DAJul 14, 20162 votes

the win rates were updated

OP said that today she had 58% win rate, i looked on every ranks and find that she had 58% win rate at plat, and i also saw that rammus had 58%, with the update his win rate is 57%.

~~and sona has a small playerbase, which means that according to you she isn't op.~~

EedatJul 14, 20166 votes

sona has a small playerbase

When did a 13% pick rate become "small"?

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 201628 votes

Win rate data can be pretty misleading, day 1 data especially. With a jump in win rate like that though it's often an indication something's worth looking at. In this case that's Rammus's Q stun duration, which is bugged and lasting longer than it should. We'll definitely fix that in the next patch at the latest, might or might not hotfix before then (checking to see if there's a major bug that's hotfix worthy by itself we could piggyback a Rammus fix on).

Synnx7Jul 14, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Win rate data can be pretty misleading, day 1 data especially. With a jump in win rate like that though it's often an indication something's worth looking at. In this case that's Rammus's Q stun duration, which is bugged and lasting longer than it should. We'll definitely fix that in the next patch at the latest, might or might not hotfix before then (checking to see if there's a major bug that's hotfix worthy by itself we could piggyback a Rammus fix on).

Do u guys take 1month to fix a champion's bug? so slow, for a multi billionaire company. Rammus might not get played in ur LC$ so yeah

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 201627 votes

We got a fix ready this morning. We're now trying to determine whether we'll need to wait to add it to the game in the next patch 2 weeks from now or whether there'll be an opportunity to do so sooner (early next week perhaps?). Hotfixes have quite a bit of risk to them, so bugs need to hit a certain threshold of impact to justify one. Once we're doing one in the first place though it's then appropriate to add other things, such as this Rammus fix, to it.

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 201632 votes

Usual disclaimer: Win rates aren't everything.

It does look like Sona's probably significantly overpowered though, both according to statistics and from direct observation. We're looking into potential nerfs should we get confirmation that's definitely the case.

The Yetii RiderJul 14, 20162 votes

Is there a reason you've nailed down? Is it her healing, or her speed boost?

If the problem is her damage, couldn't you simply disable Sona's ability to buy Sheen? It's extreme, but it's been a problem with her in the support role for years now and if the item is holding you back from giving her actual decent numbers without breaking her, why not just cut it out?

RiotMeddlerJul 14, 201611 votes

Not sure yet. Healing amount was being kicked around by some of the Live Gameplay team as a likely culprit, they're still looking into it though.

The Taco KatJul 14, 20163 votes

I'd say it's either how quickly she can get her Power Chord stacks or her healing power atm. Ardent/Windspeaker's is also extremely strong on her as well, so that could be contributing towards a few problems.

Supreme Senpai69Jul 15, 20166 votes

I honestly think its her E. I played Sona for the first time yesterday and had a 73% kill participation. I could simply be -everywhere- and help -everyone- because of how long it lasts when out of combat. I didn't build ardent censer or use windspeakers, and I didn't bother with the power chord stacks. I just used E anytime a fight broke out to get to it, and would ult and spam W. Mostly for the shield, not the heal. With the short cooldown I could negate sooo much damage. I built lots of movespeed and AP items, nobody could ever get away from me. I got a quadra kill and woulda got a penta had they not ff'd right when we caught their last team member.

And I'm not bragging that I'm good. Quite the opposite, really. Being able to move super quickly, being able to use your Q while mowing down enemies, being able to stun, it feels too oppressive for the other team. She's super squishy and if Sona is chasing down anybody she'll die. But if her team is following, then she'll be a god imo

AFK PushJul 15, 20162 votes

So sona is now like a janna that actually does damage?

Supreme Senpai69Jul 15, 20163 votes

Uh... probably more like a Karma honestly. Janna has disengage

HellioningJul 14, 201610 votes

By that logic, we should also remove Vayne's ability to buy BotRK. And Rammus' ability to buy Thornmail. Or Wukong's ability to buy black cleaver.

AnimusvsAnimaJul 14, 20165 votes

I feel like it's the added cdr that's doing it. Try turning that down first and see how that feels. Her abilities feel much better to use. Maybe even increasing their base cool downs might work.

Hinagiku33Jul 14, 201611 votes

Please just don't overdo it.

If you hit her abilities' base power because she can spam, then decide to reduce the CDR on her ult to limit her spamming, Sona will basically get Sejuani'd and have to wait for another rework.

Maybe just lower the free CDR and see how that goes first? Or hit Power Chord since she can use it more often now. Otherwise I'd be really worried about Sona's lane phase with super weak QWE.

SilverclawJul 14, 20168 votes

I never understood why the term was "Sejuani'd" when she's been in a pretty good spot (aka a sleeper pick) for most of the year. Just a random thought, because the only time she wasn't good was when games were effectively over before she hit level 6.

Dominick DestineJul 14, 201619 votes

{quoted}

I never understood why the term was "Sejuani'd"

No, Sejuani'd is when they nerf a character because of an interaction with an overpowered item and then later nerf the item anyway.

A character getting hard-gutted was always called "Eve tier'd" or "Olaf'd".

LankPantsJul 15, 20163 votes

Sejuani'd specifically refers to the period at the end of S5 and start of S6 after both her and Cinderhulk had been nerfed and before both received buffs. At that point in time she was a fairly weak champion.

VorthasJul 14, 20165 votes

Might want to look at the ultimate CDR numbers. Those might be overtuned. If they were nerfed down to 10%/20%/30% then she'd probably be in a better place.

Keep in mind that these Sona changes were pushed through right after a bunch of support item changes that really benefited Sona (Ardent Censer, Mikaels, etc.) were released, meaning Sona was probably on the rise just from itemization changes. If the item changes had been postponed til after Sona's changes I don't think we'd have this problem.

I do agree she has a hard kit to balance, but at the same time it is because of the way she plays RIGHT NOW that many Sona mains like her. If she were changed too much, we'd have to look to other champions to play and no longer be able to play the champs that we liked. I was like this with the Soraka rework, I used to love playing Soraka and now she's not fun for me anymore.

LankPantsJul 15, 20162 votes

If they were nerfed down to 10%/20%/30% then she'd probably be in a better place.

If you're going to go in that direction 15/22.5/30% are better numbers because it means that Sona still gets her level 6 kick and isn't entirely reliant on higher ult ranks.

Dominick DestineJul 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It does look like Sona's probably significantly overpowered though

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

I totally called this by the way http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/twoKabPv-new-sona-is-glorious-i-predict-nerfs ... even after just one game I immediately knew she was going to get hard-gutted... my question is that why don't you nerf Fizz Zed Yasuo LeeSin with the same reckless vigor that you're going to use to destroy current Sona?

Immortal spaxJul 15, 20167 votes

Lol, yasuo zed fizz and lee sin op, what a joke.

Masala ChaiJul 14, 201622 votes

Something, something Pika310. Sona's winrate inflated by low playerbase. Something, something artificial scaling. Something, something worst champion in the game. Something, something, Gypsypeasant, Kateykhaos, Meddler insulting customers,

No offense, Pika310, but you don't need to comment here. Unless you feel they're spewing "disinformation".

Slamurai JackJul 14, 20167 votes

Careful m8, he's gonna report you for harassment now since you mentioned his name.

Masala ChaiJul 14, 20166 votes

Eh, he harasses Rioters and people who don't align with his positions all the time.

I honestly couldn't care less. A lot of people I know, even in my family are like that.

And plus most of his posts are indeed formatted like that. Insulting, that is.

AbyssphereJul 14, 20163 votes

"Meddler insulting customers"?

Oh child, he's long since evolved to "Meddler THREATENING customers".

Slamurai JackJul 15, 20164 votes

{quoted}

"Meddler insulting customers"?

Oh child, he's long since evolved to "Meddler THREATENING customers".

Meddler EATING CUSTOMERS CHILDREN in the name of SATAN.

yay nibbersJul 15, 20162 votes

I think my favorite of his go-to arguments is his definition of an aura taken from an outdated World of Warcraft wiki page

ShinkoMinoriJul 14, 20169 votes

She runs out of mana so fast tho

NavaruneJul 14, 201610 votes

Ardent Censer, Athene's, and Eye of the Watchers eliminated my mana issues with her. Not to mention I ended my build with Lich Bane which gave even more mana.

KONO RUBICK DAJul 14, 201610 votes

Now i'm not saying that sona isn't op but: it doesn't. Just because you have mana regen doesn't mean you won't be oom, because you spam your spells faster than your mana is regenerating. In a fight, every time i spam my spells i end up oom and have to wait to get mana through mana regen. if you want a way to avoid being oom build item 3070 but it destroy your build path and delay your utility items like item 3504 .

NavaruneJul 14, 20166 votes

It could be that we were cleaning up the fights faster than I could oom, but seriously once I had those three items I never oom'd in a fight again. Also, just because you "can" spam doesn't mean that you should, so even with 67% CDR mana management should remain a concern.

EDIT: I should clarify that before I hit those items I did indeed dry my mana pool, and often, but I wouldn't say it was a massive weakness.

Scary DoorJul 14, 20164 votes

Free, nonskill shot/non-point-and-click damage on a 2 second cooldown? What could go wrong?

Sorry for the unpopular opinion, but I've always hated Sona; I understand that there need to be some easy to play champions but to give such a high degree of power to an ability that literally has no counterplay (ability to be dodged) is silly. Sona mains will argue that it's because it's her only damaging ability, but shouldn't there at least be some type of interaction so that she can't simply walk up to you and chunk you for 1/3rd of your health every 2 seconds?

HowPlayGAEMJul 14, 20161 votes

[deleted]

KONO RUBICK DAJul 14, 201611 votes

i would prefer riot giving enemies a way to deal with sona rather than touching a strength of sona. Censer interaction being nerfed will makes sona players going into an AP build once again, i find this very suspecious that it's the solution. What i would like if sona were to be op, is riot nerfing her in a way where they increase her weaknesses: -limited by mana -being squishy with 325 base ms either reduce her aura/auto attack range so her enemies can target her easier, or increase her W mana cost/reduce her base mana pool+mana/lvl so it rewards more enemies who manage to extend the fight.

reducing her healing/shielding power, utility, or increasing her cooldown would be a terrible idea from a design point, because what should make players picking sona should be "look this champion can bring utility on a low cooldown, but is terrible at cc'ing and tanking".

AzlagorJul 14, 20164 votes

I think those are horrible ideas to fix her. Makeing her vulnerable will just make her more binary, and reduceing her power in extendet fights prettymuch goes against what she's supposed to do, especially after those changes. Extendet fights is where she is supposed to shine mid-lategame.

The main issue remains that her skills are all instand autoaim, there is no real room for error other than the timeing, and even though her ult can be missed, it can hardly be dodged reactively unless it's on max range(prettymuch like tibbers exept for the max range part) So prettymuch all the agency is on sonas side, you can't outplay her but have to wait for her to outplay herself or just overpower her.

Best princess EUJul 14, 20164 votes

{quoted}

you can't outplay her

he's giving you right now a way to outplay here: by killing her, same way riot made soraka unable to cast W on herself to leave you room to find a solution to win against permanent healing and that's why sona is squishy else you would be able to do nothing but watching her supporting her team with Q/W/E

{quoted}

make her more binary

yes, like every champ in the game. Either you die, or you live and it's better in general for your team. It's also a good idea, because it makes sona balanced. Good players will survive attempts by using her passive, and her defensive spells and will be able to help her team, if those good players died the enemies just played better and this isn't a power issue

AzlagorJul 14, 20162 votes

by killing her

That's not outplaying her, that's idealy the result of outplaying her, or given her kit a result of overpowering her.

yes, like every champ in the game

Thx to damagecreep, that seems to be the case as anything either kills or dies instantly-,-.

However, There can be variance. So Sonas impact in fights has only few variables: Hit/miss Ult, passive management, ability timeing, her items/runes/masteries and how long she stays alive and positioning. Now item's and co aswell as how long one stays alive, timeing and targeting on abillities and positioning apply to any champ, so the only variable that sona really brings is the ult and passive. The big thing is, the only thing opponents have really influence on is how long she stays alive and to some extend her targeting(and maybe indirectly her positioning)

Leona for example has more variance, As where is another skill(E) she can hit/miss, and that skill greatly determins whom she can target with her Q. Unlike sona's, Leona's ult canb be reactively dodged(atleast the stun part), so can her E. And by beeing a melee with the only form of mobillity beeing avoidable, opponents have far more impact on her targeting.

As a result, there is little way on how i can influence how much impact the opposing sona has, while i can have quite some influence and a far more nuanced on how well an oppsing leona does for example.

Counterplay isn't about what options sona has, but about what options i have vs her. Andmakeing her more vulnerable wouldn't increase the number of options i have, but how likely i can use an already existing option. So instead of allowing more counterplay vs her, it increases the impact/likelyness of already existing counterplay. A counterplay with rather binary impact at that, as it does not lower her impact, but removes it completely if seuccesfull.

AhristocatsJul 14, 20165 votes

{quoted}

That's not outplaying her, that's idealy the result of outplaying her, or given her kit a result of overpowering her.

then talk with riot about vayne? they said 5 or 6 times that %hp true damage is countered by killing vayne because of her low range

kek

PartholonianJul 14, 20162 votes

{quoted}

positioning apply to any champ

Sure, in the same sense that autoattacks apply to any champ. But there's still a class that revolves around them and classes that mostly don't care about them.

When you're ultra squishy, immobile, and all your spells are "aimed" by moving your whole body, positioning is a bit more of a thing than it is for the average champion.