The real reason why 5.15 and esp. 5. 16 are such a miserable experience

JumpingAmcik··23 votes·2,267 views

Is that the game is in such a terrible state that a major balancing mechanic, the hive-mind empowered ban phase, cannot balance the game anymore.

On top of that i think that we NEED to learn from the current situation that major item changes should NEVER be mixed with major champion changes and vice versa, since none of them can be evaluated properly this way. Now i will delve into detail.

  • To the ban phase:

Sated devourer already introduced this problem, by adding at least 3 champions to the list of things that will potentially ruin your game experience with something broken.

Not that this list wasn't already well cast: Irelia Riven Tryndamere Vayne Rengar Kalista is a personal selection from me.

So with sated, u add Kayle MasterYi Shyvana to that.

Now comes patch 5.16, and adds Garen Mordekaiser Skarner.

By this time the game has accumulated Irelia Riven Tryndamere Vayne RengarKalista Kayle MasterYi ShyvanaGaren Mordekaiser Skarner as major balance problems.

Now you are estranged by the brokenness of these abominations every game, since u wont play games without any of them. think about it, 6 of these run free every single game. With the champion changes alone, the game would have been shaken up a lot, and the patch would likely have been unpleasant with this alone.

  • item changes and new items on top

i acknowledge the fact that riot wants to keep the game interesting with new things, and even if new items will probably always need a little rebalancing, thats fine. The Problem is, we cannot evaluate the items at all. The aforementioned champion imbalances add an incredible amount of tension to almost every single game and stress the players a lot.

Now come item 3075 item 3143 item 3742 item 3110 item 3053 item 3748 . I have played about 50 matches since 5.16 came out, but i cant say anything about the changes to these items, the game is just to shaken up to evualate item strengths. I am currently a dedicated player, platinum 4 with a lot of time invested into the game, and im left entirely confused about these changes. What adds to the general feel of powerlessness is that the created chaos leads at best to a very long time ahead to properly balance these items and changes, since revisiting potential changes will be necessary in a state this chaotic. Personally, for example i just dont see Mordekaiser reaching balance soon. It hurts so much when u realize that you want to be playing a fair game of league of legends, and suddenly the enemy team has a free dragon spirit.

The league community is incredibly competitive. Millions of players grind out what defines the meta every single day. Now if dedicated players can't see a balanced game state in near future, on a side note, what are you doing to more casual players? I don't know how they could be anything but estranged by the game as it is now.

I am firmly convinced that the very best decision would be to revert 5.16, but i know you cant do that.

Im left estranged, helpless, and i dont have hope.

Rumble Fireyordle

30 Comments

UdoIkOSc4u8 votes

complain about yi mordekaiser rengar garen get good

JavelinJoe5 votes

First off I recently i played a game where a Garen ulted for over 1100 true damage. How is that fair? Is riot wanting to remove the squishy ADC and MID champions who dont get a health bar above 2.5k and stack minimal armor and magic resist and health items? Garen can just get a item 3071 for damage and go full tank. that is enough for him to initiate any non-tank champion. His only counter is heavy cc like Malzahar when he ults. If you manage to beat him in lane he still is a threat from split pushing and team fights. I mean really, 10 hits in 3 seconds aoe that does crits and removes slows and halves future slows with extra damage to a solo target and if that was not enough a chase ability that silences and a heavy resistance buff. If you could live through that he can ult you for half your health if your the villain which will most likely be one of the carries (ADC or MID).

Secondly, Mordekaiser might be further proof that Riot wants to remove squishy ADCs. he was moved to the bot lane as an ADC replacement. but he gains a solo lanes xp. Really? that is fair? so he can get 6 when i'm still 4, kill me with his ult and 1v3 my partner. Even worse if his support has some hard engage likeNautilus or Blitzcrank. Even worse is he can take the dragon to lane. No matter how good you are, facing a dragon at early levels is tough when doing it by yourself or with one partner, and it is basically a sixth player for there team since his max level ult keeps the ghost for 75 and has a cooldown of 90. Now some might argue that his abilities cost health so he is at a disadvantage. It would be a valid argument, if he didn't have to but one item to make up for the cost. One item. that's it. And now he is cost free. and still keeps his shield His q does a total of 39x (3x+9x+27x) his normal damage at max rank if he hits all 3 which isn't hard and it has bonus magic damage. His w make him basically immortal for a bot lane 2v2 if he gets close enough to you with his support. good luck diving that combo Leona.

Basically, Riot has made the standard role of squishy ADC really difficult to play. and that is without doing into detail about all the other reworks and new items to help tanks and junglers. And here we all though item 3708 Ezreal was op before it got nerfed.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

I like how people say ADC was the easiest role to play, but now it feels like It's easily the hardest role to play.

-If you don't have perfect positioning at all stages of the game in every scenario, you die.

-If you don't farm perfectly, you'll be useless and won't even scratch someone like Garen or Skarner.

-If you don't have a really strong team that can protect you at all stages of the game, you die instantly.

Pretty sad that even when you're 20-0 you can still be out-dueled by nearly any Top, Mid, or Jungler in the game. It doesn't feel like ADC is rewarding as it should be. You don't get rewarded as well as you could be for playing a different role. By getting fed all you do is increase your damage, sure you might be able to kill the enemy carries in a few auto attacks, but then again they can still easily kill you for any little mistake.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Va877828,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-08-29T16:03:14.776+0000)

I like how people say ADC was the easiest role to play, but now it feels like It's easily the hardest role to play.

-If you don't have perfect positioning at all stages of the game in every scenario, you die.

-If you don't farm perfectly, you'll be useless and won't even scratch someone like Garen or Skarner.

-If you don't have a really strong team that can protect you at all stages of the game, you die instantly.

Pretty sad that even when you're 20-0 you can still be out-dueled by nearly any Top, Mid, or Jungler in the game. It doesn't feel like ADC is rewarding as it should be. You don't get rewarded as well as you could be for playing a different role. By getting fed all you do is increase your damage, sure you might be able to kill the enemy carries in a few auto attacks, but then again they can still easily kill you for any little mistake.

Yeah, the marksman role is fairly toxic. Only able to buy one defensive item, most expensive build in the game, terrible mid game and all your items are sub par with low utility compared to AP mids/assassins. Luden's Echo is a substantially better item than Stattik Shiv, because it gives more MS, AP instead of AS/Crit, scales with the penetration you actually buy, and has an AP ratio on the burst.

Marksman items should be retuned to give less offensive power but more utility and survivability so that marksmen aren't so dependent on five man peel.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

The thing about AD vs AP items, is that AP items actually give a lot of defensive stats.

I compared Anivia, the squishiest AP Carry in the game vs Miss Fortune the tankiest AD Carry in the game at a full, common build, and Anivia was still noticeably more tankier even those she is the squishiest champion in the game, her AP build allows her to be more tankier than the tankiest ADC at full build.

So yeah, even when you're extremely fed as an ADC you're still insanely easy to kill. If you don't have your entire team peeling for you, you just die.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Va877828,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2015-08-29T17:08:15.166+0000)

The thing about AD vs AP items, is that AP items actually give a lot of defensive stats.

I compared Anivia, the squishiest AP Carry in the game vs Miss Fortune the tankiest AD Carry in the game at a full, common build, and Anivia was still noticeably more tankier even those she is the squishiest champion in the game, her AP build allows her to be more tankier than the tankiest ADC at full build.

So yeah, even when you're extremely fed as an ADC you're still insanely easy to kill. If you don't have your entire team peeling for you, you just die.

I agree. Sadly Mercurial Scimitar isn't bought more often. And Riot can't make an AD/Armor item because that's just too toxic.

BluePolarizer1 votes

In return you get the highest DPS in the game at the best distance, the best sustain, sometimes the best escapes (Vayne has the 3rd best escapes in the game next to Ahri and LeBlanc, Corki and Lucian are as mobile as Gragas and Sejuani, more mobile than J4).

There's a reason that ADC+support is played. If ADC was not such an important and critical role, why doesn't the ADC farm top or mid and have a bruiser + support bot? Why not just have more bruisers? Why are ADCs being played mid now like Varus? Because ADCs are critical. You can change any other role out, but not the ADC. Teams with 4 support/utility champs + a hard carry ADC have frequently won pro games while no pro game was ever won by no ADC team.

Tyaldan1 votes

Actually you can change out the adc quite easily. Have all ad in the other lanes, then run an APC bot. Someone with good poke waveclear, and preferably decent late game damage.

BluePolarizer2 votes

Good luck sieging towers or competing in doing objectives against a team with an ADC. Good luck having the rest of your team even get complete items since jungle gets way lower income and solo laners can't afford to save up for BF sword items without snowballing. There's a reason why ADC is the role that gets to buy IE.

Tyaldan1 votes

There are ways of seiging without having an adc, its not ideal but its possible as long as you arent all melee. And regarding the bf sword, its not like other lanes get less minions. If anything id say a good adc with mobility or disengage can quite easily take top and have an easier time of it than a botlane adc, because theres only one threat to watch, two if lane gets pushed. Not to mention the fact that tops are usually melee too.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Solo lanes don't get BF sword items not because they get less items but because they have to content with another laner without a support to even things out. If you tried saving for a BF sword while your lane opponent just got 2x longsword + pickaxe, they'll snowball out of control since you have nothing while they have longsword, you'll still have nothing when they have pickaxe, and you'll still have nothing when they have 2x longsword + pickaxe, at which point they have +45 AD and you still have +0. They get stronger incrementally and thus can easily zone you out from ever being able to buy the BF sword and it still mattering.

You could put the ADC top but that's very risky. A long range waveclear ADC mid is possible (Varus or Sivir) but it has to be a very specific pick and your comp has to work around it. Meanwhile, have you thought what happens bot with a melee or an AP + support vs. an ADC + support, especially if that ADC also has CC (Jinx, Cait, Vayne) or burst (Corki, Graves)?

ABlueQuaker1 votes

The idea is that any AD Carry can be killed by a moderately strong Top, Mid or Jungler provided they can overcome the range disparity. AD Carry is incredibly rewarding this patch considering they nerfed 3 Core Jungle Tank items item 3110 item 3143 item 3717 and 1 Situational Tank item item 3075 in a single patch.

As rare as it is for me to play AD Carry nowadays, I'm still heavily contributing to wins in High Plat-Low Diamond Ranked games.

I spend most of a game lagging and was still 3-shotting people as Jinx.

Silents4291 votes

First off I recently i played a game where a ulted for over 1100 true damage. How is that fair? Is riot wanting to remove the squishy ADC and MID champions who dont get a health bar above 2.5k and stack minimal armor and magic resist and health items? can just get a for damage and go full tank. that is enough for him to initiate any non-tank champion. His only counter is heavy cc like when he ults. If you manage to beat him in lane he still is a threat from split pushing and team fights. I mean really, 10 hits in 3 seconds aoe that does crits and removes slows and halves future slows with extra damage to a solo target and if that was not enough a chase ability that silences and a heavy resistance buff. If you could live through that he can ult you for half your health if your the villain which will most likely be one of the carries (ADC or MID).

You kite the bastard!

Guys come the hell on, it's GAREN. You kite him, his ability to do anything for kiting got NERFED.

And why does it matter how much his executing ult did? It was an execute it was going to kill you or leave you with a smidge of health anyway!

His "AOE 10 hits in 3 seconds that crits" Is no different then before! Have you tried getting the hell out of the way?? Maybe try kiting him????

He doesn't halve future slows, and the trick to his Q is that he doesn't get bonus movement speed and the silence if he doesn't activate it, so you can still outrun him and KITE HIM and if he activates it then use your slow. Then

If you manage to beat him in lane he still is a threat from split pushing and team fights.

What the hell does that even mean? Every champion can split push, and any champion with CC can team fight, the point of these changes was to give Garen something to do in fights beyond a silence.

And my god the full tank 1 damage item ordeal I keep hearing isn't even true at all, Go look at his frequent builds http://champion.gg/champion/Garen/Top

He doesn't even build a randiuns anymore or a sunfire cape.

SeriousH95 votes

'miserable' is the keyword here.

RIOT has lost its way because it no longer seems to introduce changes that are fun - it keeps introducing changes that make the game somehow fit some strange mold that relates to competitive play that is not relevant to the actual entertainment derived from a game.

One by one fun heroes are being made boring by these patches. I've mained Darius for so long, and now although I can still eat people with him, it's boring.

I remember long ago when they changed Kat - nerfed her shumbo in favor of her blades. It made her strong, but boring. Much, much more boring. It was much more fun to use her shumpo to deal max damage. Now you can sit back, calmly poking.

RIOT has to go back to making games fun.

Dr Poro4 votes

also XinZhao Diana Fiora Ahri

ABlueQuaker3 votes

Riot had to break Mordekaiser's W for him to work bot.

TheVishual3 votes

You forgot to add Fiora to that list who is probably the second most broken next to skarner... on a real note though you are correct in terms of there being so many powerful champions and not enough bans.

It literally forces the meta; if you don't play these broken champs in higher elo, you cannot be competitive. They are just too strong right now and old, non "reworked" champions were powercreeped so much this patch they are very weak ATM.

Jaygo413 votes

I'll wait while you guys are banning that shit, i'll just pick XinZhao every game and win unfortunately, that's just what it comes to in my ranked games. if i wanna win, i deny them a xin pick and pick it... you guys don't know how it works the junglers are literally just a few people abusing on hit effect multipliers, sated is so easy to nerf but they won't do it. this item is just not good for the jungle at all

ideally the jungle should probably be centered around the other 3 jungle enchantments... stacking jg items that encourage AFK farming are unhealthy and bad for the game

HaIlMonitor2 votes

Well I mean I looked at your match history (if this is your main) and it seems some of your hate is to junglers which you are an Amumu main who lets face it is not a duelist. You can't stop sated junglers and get smacked around by rengar and anyone else that can counter jungle well. So that takes care of that 5/12 then the others are all Hyper carries except maybe riven because she is feast and famine where Irelia is always strong after TF. I agree with maybe 4 of them and that is all.

Parasom2 votes

well said

TheI3igDaddy2 votes

Just stop playing the game. Take a break. I hit Plat this season (like 1 1/2 months' ago?) and I've barely played ranked since. Balance is fucked up and I refuse to try to be competitive when so many broken abominations exist to make my games miserable.

JumpingAmcik3 votes

I think we hit plat at the exactly same time. I had an insane 14-1 winstreak, then luck ran out come 5.16. I lost 6 in a row and was disgusted by what determined those games. The thing is, not only ranked is such a turndown, im rarely having fun in normals since 9 out of 10 games are determined by some weirdness getting out of hand and ruling the game (Im not Mordekaiser talking Garen about Skarner the usual snowballing). Maybe its time to move on. summoner 6

Ramza Paradise1 votes

oh wow a balance topic that doesn't include annie, surprising

but eh, maybe a few are those are glaring issues, but most aren't.

Keevalroy1 votes

I am firmly convinced that the very best decision would be to revert 5.16, but i know you cant do that.

They can, but the balance team would be admitting they were wrong and made mistakes...which will happen after hell freezes over. If we're reverting, I'd say go back to 5.12 or 5.13 and fix problems before they happen (sated devourer, #BigPlay$ champ buffs, tanks being gutted etc.) because around this time, we saw the most viable champions we've had in a long time and the playerbase was generally happy with this tank meta.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

They can, but the balance team would be admitting they were wrong and made mistakes...which will happen after hell freezes over. If we're reverting, I'd say go back to 5.12 or 5.13 and fix problems before they happen (sated devourer, #BigPlay$ champ buffs, tanks being gutted etc.) because around this time, we saw the most viable champions we've had in a long time and the playerbase was generally happy with this tank meta.

They actually can't revert, since they made new graphics, new coding, new animations, and other things for four champions.

That's a lot of the art team's time and if you just do away with it you're giving up thousands of dollars that you paid them to work on it over the three to four months that they were probably spending on it.

JumpingAmcik2 votes

I agree not everything can be undone, but looking at their income and the importance of the game to the company, id say the money issue is minor. As it turns out, many people were very content with a tank meta since tanks are, if properly balanced, quite fun to play with / against. The patch before runeglaive was the absolute BEST the game saw imo. Its like being on the last 100 m of a marathon to a really balanced game, coming out of the curve...... sadly they didnt want to reach the finish as it seems.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

{quoted}

I agree not everything can be undone, but looking at their income and the importance of the game to the company, id say the money issue is minor. As it turns out, many people were very content with a tank meta since tanks are, if properly balanced, quite fun to play with / against. The patch before runeglaive was the absolute BEST the game saw imo. Its like being on the last 100 m of a marathon to a really balanced game, coming out of the curve...... sadly they didnt want to reach the finish as it seems.

And how do you think a revert would go for company morale? "Sorry IronStylus, I know you worked four months on those crystal spires to get them just right, but our clients hate them so we're trashing the whole thing".

At best we'd probably see a lot less work on the artists' part, at worst we might see some resign in protest, and the art team is fantastic. You shouldn't lump them in or criticize their hard work because you don't like Relaunch or Update.

Silents4291 votes

Miserable?

What's going on? Me and my friends have been playing and enjoying our XP weekend and having a blast.

Yuniver1 votes

item 3930

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb1 votes

new thornmail is really good (perhaps too good). Randuins and Frozen heart seem weak. The only thing that actually lets you survive ADCs is thornmail because they're actually able to kill themselves on you now. Also, it's really hard to itemize health and armor now, since you can't justify randuins as easily. Dead man's plate is really good, but it's fairly niche. Warmogs is really good on aram, but it's hard to build it, even on tanks. Let me put it this way; I'm having a really hard time getting tanky enough to teamfight on amumu.

Dunno about the new damage items.

What's clear to me though, is that there needs to be a way to deal with % true damage. Since Riot's started handing it out like candy, and it completely invalidates the defensive stats you build, it's really shitty to play a tank in any game that features vayne or fiora. I think garen's (aside from his ult) is a good example of what health % true damage looks like. He gets it on one person, and it's a fairly low number. However, and especially if he's built defensive, you'll feel it. There's not enough attack speed slow in the world to shut down vayne, who gets away with building nothing but attack speed for the 1st half of the game, and can rely pretty much entirely on her true damage to burn down tanks. For some reason, Fiora's true damage scales per AD per level, which is absolutely fucking stupid.

I played a game of skarner today, and I was amazed at how brain dead easy it was. I'm more amazed that no one at Riot saw his current state is completely retarded. Skarner is impossible to fight in his control zone. His pre 6 ganks are strong enough to get him early kills. His post 6 is a free kill when his ult is up. Once he has a lead, he's impossible to kill. You can't contest a dragon if skarner is there, or he will come flying out of the pit like a bullet leaves a gun. He'll hit about as hard too, because at 4k health with a titanic hydra, he'll kill you if you don't focus him, and if you do, he'll take so long to die that his team will have pillaged your base or finished your team off. What I'm most amazed by though, is that it's been over a week since he was released like this, and Riot has done nothing.

Honestly, I know they want to try to clean it up for worlds, but they have a lot of work to do if they can't even get a skarner hotfix out the fucking door. Good fucking luck, riot.

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