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Edge of the Night, Maw vs Zhonyas

Storren·Feb 9, 2017·2 votes·1,618 views

Just curious on the communities thoughts about this.

Maw was changed to be an ideal bruiser item for people to have defensive stats while bringing damage. Yet here we are in 2017 with this new Item called Edge of the night. This item legit punishes mages through and through. Its a 30 second cd active that gives a free banshees veil that lasts 15 seconds. Combine this with Maw and you get a roughly 400 Magical Resistance shield because it scales with Magical Resistance. Which QSS also gives you good offensive stats with great defensive utility.

The fact that is scales makes sense for Bruisers I understand that completely. Yet Edge of the night gives you the stats that maw used to have when it was used for assassins because it was intended to be the equivalent of Zhonyas.

Here's what my point comes in. Why is there Only Zhonyas for mages to use vs these Assassin champions like talon or Zed while the assassin has 3 options available to him that gives decent offensive stats with defensive capabilities? Is it possible for someday a Mage to get an item that gives Penetration with defensive Capabilities like Haunting Guise plus Arm Seeker that gives you like 15 penetration, 200 Hp, 80 ap, 20 armor for I don't know 3200 gold that when you activate it reflects a physical attack or spell at the target? That was just an idea you don't have to do this exact thing

I know mages have a ton of offensive items like protobelt and Morellos that are amazing on mages. Just feels like AD champions have so many defensive tools that give decent to great offensive stats that mages also lack. If Zhonyas is supposed to be Maws counter part, what is Edge of the nights?

Let me know what you guys think!

52 Comments

AlienPrimateFeb 9, 20175 votes

item 3157 item 3151 item 3027 item 3116 item 3020 item 3089

Base armor - 85 Runes - 9 Items - 45

Armor = 139 = 58% damage reduction

Base hp - 1900 Items - 1100 hp = 3000 = 7140 effective hp

item 3156 item 3814 item 3111 item 3139 item 3071 item 3036

Base MR - 53 Runes - 27 Items - 140 MR = 220 = 69% damage reduction

Base hp - 1900 items - 300 HP = 2200 = 7097 effective hp

Seems fair to me.

Before anyone says something about armor penetration remember that this is a team game. The assassin has no armor with this build so they will get absolutely shredded by AD while the mage has more health to take magic damage from the assassin's team.

DecoyStormFeb 9, 20172 votes

But, like you said its a team games so they can get away with build this cause its not 1 dude versus your team and if that build takes out 2 people(In most cases it does) it will tilt your 5v5 to a 3v4. The base mr of that second build is 130 which in turn gives you that in shield for the Maw.

StorrenFeb 9, 20172 votes

also you have to remember you say 58% damage reduction yet penetration takes a factor in that argument and most people don't use black cleaver or lastwhisper with that build theyd run ghsotblade

StorrenFeb 12, 20171 votes

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/227984552046362625/280228488974303232/unknown.png

This is what I mean. Can build Edge of the Night go full tank and be just fine his damage was 40k some how as well. This why this item is a problem just shines higher than any other item in the game. Not saying what you are posting is wrong its just situations like this. Can burst people down absorb a lot of damage.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 9, 20174 votes

you literally have an invincibility button and you are complaining that mages don't have enough defensive options?

15 penetration, 200 Hp, 80 ap, 20 armor for I don't know 3200 gold that when you activate it reflects a physical attack or spell at the target?

This item would be broken.

Ark SorcererFeb 9, 20172 votes

Zyhona's, if you activate it with no allies on the battle field, can get your surrounded and a easy target. It is a double edge sword. There have been times where I played Poppy and Q'd where a mage was after activating it. The very second Zhyona's ended, Poppy's Q reactivated and killed them, leaving no room for retaliation or flash. It is in safer positions like behind your towers to save yourself from a Ziggs ult or in team fights where your team will focus down on whoever was trying to get the mage will that be as you described. There is no double edge sword with these items. I mean sure, from Maw you can pop it from pocking before going ham but that is more in laning situations where you can poke. Just fighting and trying to burst, that does saves lives.

Edge of DaybreakFeb 9, 20171 votes

Edge of night cannot be used if you are already in combat. It doesn't really need a double edged sword because it has a clause that makes it so it cannot be used if jumped on or if you start a fight without it on. As for maw it's strong but it does have a decent cooldown. it's hard to compare the items just because their use cases are so different.

DecoyStormFeb 9, 20171 votes

Its a 10 second duration on a 30 second CD while Zhonyas is 90 you are unable to Move or act(Draw Back) and last 2.5 secs. SO what I am seeing here is free spell shield for 0 output for an Invulnerability that can be easily counter by a team.

StorrenFeb 9, 20171 votes

NOt always you just cant take damage while channeling it

StorrenFeb 9, 20171 votes

Yeah that's what I was trying to get at thank you Ark Sorcerer

Ark SorcererFeb 13, 20171 votes

No problem. If you can argue your words a bit better (not that I am one to talk and not saying you are bad), you can be a person who can get your opinion out there and heard a bit more.

I am just commenting on things I care about or arguing for and a someone who prefers mages, I know the feel of Maw saving a marksman.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 9, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ark Sorcerer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VUkGRb9O,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-02-09T03:44:06.405+0000)

Zyhona's, if you activate it with no allies on the battle field, can get your surrounded and a easy target. It is a double edge sword.

The people who make this claim are the people who use zhonyas for no damn reason other than to delay their death. yes, using it poorly gets u screwed. News at 11. Calling it a doubled edged sword for that reason is dumb.

DecoyStormFeb 9, 20172 votes

Cause what do you consider a double edge sword? Is it blowing up people from a distance as Jayce/Jhin/Varus something mages were supposed to do, or is it the Kennen-Ult-Zhonyas into 0 Follow up from your team?

LordGeovanniFeb 11, 20171 votes

Jhin is supposed to be a mage with ad scaleings riot the hypocritical ones are buffing him for adc though and he isnt takeing hits to his caster play style.

StorrenFeb 9, 20171 votes

Yes I know just an Idea doesn't have to be that thing, I'm not complaining at all that was just a simple question. Like ARk Sorcerer said its a double edge sword. That new item almost seams willy nilly can be used whenever. plus its has a 90 second downtime while Edge of the night has 15 if used fully or 30 at the worst.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yes I know just an Idea doesn't have to be that thing, I'm not complaining at all that was just a simple question. Like ARk Sorcerer said its a double edge sword. That new item almost seams willy nilly can be used whenever. plus its has a 90 second downtime while Edge of the night has 15 if used fully or 30 at the worst.

I already expressed my thoughts on the claim that it is a double edged sword.

As of edge of night, it blocks 1 spell. Just one.

This is far from comparable to a literal invincibility button in potency.

Maw gives you what is effectively just some HP that only counts towards AP damage. That's all.

QSS cures you of 1 instance of CC. Just 1.

None is truly on the level of Zhonyas.

If you ever wanted AP champs to have more options, then they first would have to concede that zhonyas is too good and remove it from the game in favor of multiple far less effective defensive tools.

DecoyStormFeb 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

As of edge of night, it blocks 1 spell. Just one.

Every 30 secs one spell Sweet ,but Banshees is a 40 sec cd after taking no dmg dang

DecoyStormFeb 9, 20172 votes

Damn you seem like an assassin mid main mam

ChaddyFantomeFeb 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Damn you seem like an assassin mid main mam

My champ pool mostly consists of mages actually. But thanks for letting your bias be put on full display.

DecoyStormFeb 9, 20172 votes

dude your last few picks were talon hows is that a mage (Like i said assassin main)

DecoyStormFeb 9, 20171 votes

Also putting your play style on blast isn't bias just cause you took it personal and i was right doesn't mean jack nothing other than your a juvenile.

ChaddyFantomeFeb 11, 20172 votes

Irony

DecoyStormFeb 11, 20171 votes

I honestly dunno if you know words

ChaddyFantomeFeb 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

dude your last few picks were talon hows is that a mage (Like i said assassin main)

I was also playing BloodMoon. Regardless, what's your point?

DecoyStormFeb 11, 20171 votes

Cause you can't read nor do you know what words are I pray for you and your family.............. Cause you can't lolking people know more to prove they are a hypocritical douche

ChaddyFantomeFeb 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Cause you can't read nor do you know what words are I pray for you and your family.............. Cause you can't lolking people know more to prove they are a hypocritical douche

First of all lolking sucks. OP.GG had more accurate and up-to-date info. Second, if you actually DID look me up, you'd know my most played champs in ranked are Orianna and Lulu. And my highest winrate champs over multiple games are Malzahar and Swain. (I have a thing for DoT/DPS/Utility mages) Third, even if that wasn't the case, how would that make me a "hypocritical douche" in any facet?

You are simply resorting to slander in substitute of any real argument because you don't fucking have one.

DecoyStormFeb 12, 20171 votes

First of all child slow your role cause not only I but many people are complaining about the assassin items Secondly just cause you prefer a site doesn't make it several times or better at all. Third saying you aren't an assassin main and you really are makes you hypocritical so I'm done with you cause you don't get words at all and think the world revolves/against you grow up.

DecoyStormFeb 12, 20171 votes

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/227984552046362625/280281148746235904/unknown.png SHUT DOWN

ChaddyFantomeFeb 12, 20171 votes

So you went into the site, searched "Talon" in the search bar to make it show only my Talon games, and ignore all my other champs, and then pretend you are proving some kind of point?

I don't think ive seen something so sad in my life.

And again, i fail to see what your point is even if regardless. its nothing but adhominem and slander in place of legitimate argument.

DecoyStormMar 9, 20171 votes

at the time that was your last 5 rank matches but you main mages

ChaddyFantomeMar 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

at the time that was your last 5 rank matches but you main mages

Yes, At the time I played an assassin in Bloodmoon. [zombie-brand-clap]

DecoyStormMar 26, 20171 votes

[zombie-brand-clap] [zombie-brand-mindblown] [zombie-brand-facepalm] > {quoted}

Yes, At the time I played an assassin in Bloodmoon. [zombie-brand-clap]

you quote and still put bloodmoon its like you don't read at all

Edge of DaybreakFeb 9, 20171 votes

I think you mean mercurials not QSS. Also it is hard to put a value on invincibility on demand vs a spellshield that must be used before you are in combat and a shield that only comes up once you hit 30% hp. Assassins dont normally build mercurials but it is still there and a decent active. Mages don't need as many defensive options because they come with range and on demand CC where most melee AD don't have access to.

StorrenFeb 9, 20171 votes

Yes that's true but right now even ADC's are building this item which they do come with range, yes no CC but range is there and to me that's an issue. The item was meant for assassins but its sooo good that ADC's are even building it

Edge of DaybreakFeb 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yes that's true but right now even ADC's are building this item which they do come with range, yes no CC but range is there and to me that's an issue. The item was meant for assassins but its sooo good that ADC's are even building it

Yeah i've seen it on a lot of lucian, varus, and miss fortune players. It's really more of an issue of riot balancing these items around the changed ad assassins and going fuck it when thinking about the ADC side of these items. Melee only would definitely fix these issues but armor pen builds on ADCs do have some trade offs.

StorrenFeb 9, 20171 votes

I agree also armor pen works on basic attacks vs champions but does magic pen work on basic attacks vs champions? I don't think so but I had this question and never put a post about it XD

DecoyStormFeb 9, 20172 votes

Changing it to melee wouldn't solve much it just make people play talon and zed more. Though I don't know why they don't build this on Yas he seems like he'd be fine either way

DecoyStormFeb 9, 20172 votes

Most mages ranges are inside Jhins/Varus which can build Nights Edge and use it to its fullest. Also, those 2 have about more range than most mages albeit Xerath and Ziggs

Into The AetherFeb 11, 20171 votes

Edge of Night's active might be a little too available. Disable an opponent's ability to deal with you entirely if they have one way to catch you before you get to them. And you can do it twice in a minute.

You also don't seem to really pay for getting it, since triple lethality is a desirable end.

And the whole Lethality ADC is best ADC thing probably won't hold up as a good game state for long.

But Zhonya's is kind of its own tier. The general idea of Edge of Night doesn't feel out of place.

The whole, Zhonyas compares to Maw, and Edge can be better than Maw so Edge is bad, doesn't hold up. Zhonya's and Maw really don't parallel that well.

Ben SwoIoFeb 12, 20171 votes

I don't see how any mage player can complain about maw/edge when they have an invulnerability item item 3157 along with champs like Malzahar who constantly gets spell shields. Or Ryze who can stun with the click of a button. Or Swain who has a stun plus clicks r to heal and deal aoe damage. Or Syndra with her stun to insta r death. I think you get the point.

DecoyStormFeb 12, 20173 votes

cause item 3191 vs zed is several times weaker than zed get item 3155 ........... ps snares are not stuns

Ben SwoIoFeb 14, 20171 votes

I don't care. Stun snare root, they all do the same shit. They make you immobile and the mage unloads on you. You got my point, don't try to act witty with your little "ps" comment. I'm pretty sure you could've figured out what I meant. Anyway, you act like Zed builds hex and just walks all over the lane. Definitely not the case. And you're comparing mid level items? Really? Zhonyas gives mages so much room to counter. Do you know how many times I've ulted someone and with one click of a button it is all negated by Zhonyas? Meanwhile whatever aoe dot they have going on is still being applied. Still not seeing any reason for mages to be crying. They just want to be able to immobilize someone and nuke them with no counter play it seems.

DecoyStormMar 9, 20171 votes

They make you immobile and the mage unloads on you.

cause zed can shadow in a snare which is mobility, but i got what you meant? Cause everyone is a mind reader but you. See i don't understand nor care about assassins main and zhonyas. Zhonyas will zlways be forever weaker than a flat shield, and you know why.(mobility, just in case you didn't). See but why argue with a dude who name is Akrid cause i won't.

Ben SwoIoMar 15, 20171 votes

Yet you did argue. Good one. Invulnerability weaker than a shield. Good one. Keep being a butt hurt mage who just wants to be able to blow people up with no counter play though.

DecoyStormMar 26, 20171 votes

i don't get trolls nor am i butt hurt you see i don't get off on trying to argue or put people down like you. For one in any situation shields will trump invulnerability, point in case why bard isn't perma pick/ban.You gonna write something pathetic and or stupid after this so again i'm done with you and hope you can move on knowing you aren't going to get anything more from me.

Ben SwoIoMar 27, 20171 votes

K

StorrenFeb 12, 20171 votes

You have to realize that all those champs have 0 mobility and what do assassins get mobility while only one of those champs Its beyond strong on and that's swain cause he heals off it. SYndra has to hit her combo at least it takes skill to combo.

You trade CC for mobility so why you making a point about spell shields when legit 2 of those champ are going through constant nerfs and ryze is getting looked into. Every one of those get nerfed its not like Zhonyas Made a meta. Edge of the Night is legit the meta as of right changed a whole game with just on item that combos off more pen like Duskblade.

I have stated. Zhonyas active is great it can dodge spells and stuff and damage. The point is Edge has changed the game into this lethality meta. The stats you get on Edge of the Night, do not compare to the stats on the Zhonyas.

You get great offensive stats with decent defensive capabilities and ghost blade makes that shoot through the roof due to movement speed.

All I am saying is the stats it provides needs a nerf the the ability to spam a free banshees viel with a more constant refresh.

The stats of offensive power for its good defensive stats needs changed either the damage needs to go down, or the active needs a nerf on time. Never once said Zhonyas was bad but It falters in comparison to Edge.

IncarcerationMar 26, 20171 votes

For real though. Stop with these threads.

Those AD items are conditional, meaning that they require something for the active to happen (EoN requiring out of combat channel while MoM requiring you to be low enough for the shield to activate).
Zhonya's Hourglass has multiple uses compared to those items. It is one of the most flexible items in the game. The only thing it would actually have would be lowering the CD, but that is unlikely because the active is that powerful.

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