Turrets are never useful when you need them to be

Morgy Morgy·Aug 13, 2015·88 votes·10,988 views

I play a lot of top lane, and I think it's quite ridiculous how I can take a turret shot on purpose by just walking into the turret range, and only lose like 100 health. There arent as many tower dive fails this season as there used to be, because fail tower diving is actually very hard to do. you have a buddy with you, you are guaranteed a kill unless you're both imbeciles. dont even get me started on the turret's health. i cant tp to other lanes anymore unless I want to risk losing my tower. singed is actually a strong split pusher because the minions do so much damage to the useless shit. since they have no enemy minions to attack, they are just going to attack the tower, and destroy it very quickly. every match of lcs I see, the jungler and bot lane always take a tower before first blood is drawn. it's ridiculous how weak these damn things are.

68 Comments

Critmaster GarenAug 13, 201543 votes

give us fortify back. at the very least on an item active. if ohmwrecker used on allied turrets would allow us to buff the damn things for at least a couple seconds, the item would actually be useful for something.

make ohmreckers active cause allied turrets to deal 50% increased aoe damage and slow enemy hit for a couple seconds. we need something that makes our opponents think twice about waddling into our lane and 2 man dive us without minions around.

also, increase the turret range enough so ranged champions cant just poke you under your own turret without risk of getting hit.

darkdillAug 14, 20151 votes

I've suggested this one for a while now, and I approve.

g07h4xf00Aug 13, 201531 votes

Towers are supposed to provide a safety net for teams and players that fall behind. Instead, players/teams that get ahead can completely ignore towers because of how League of Mobility has allowed champions to go in, get a kill, and get out without any punishment whatsoever. What's the point of even having towers? At this point they're basically just oversized pink wards that reduce the cooldown of your teleport.

DrinkMoreWhiskeyAug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Towers are supposed to provide a safety net for teams and players that fall behind. Instead, players/teams that get ahead can completely ignore towers because of how League of Mobility has allowed champions to go in, get a kill, and get out without any punishment whatsoever. What's the point of even having towers? At this point they're basically just oversized pink wards that reduce the cooldown of your teleport.

You're supposed to defend your turret not the other way around

Duke AnaxAug 14, 20156 votes

Why defend your turret if you get no benefit from that?

GloriousKaiserAug 14, 20152 votes

Not so much a benefit as it is an obligation. Can't let the team push into your side of the map. Turrets are objectives to be knocked down.

They don't really feel accomplishing though. Good job you whacked this turret that can't hurt you because minions. Now you can do the same 3 more times.

RiotRiotRepertoirAug 14, 201527 votes

I feel pretty similar that they often don't feel strong enough against dive, especially in the early game, but their regulation of minion waves and early pushers functions pretty well, since, especially in solo queue, it doesn't feel like people that push the wave are able to knock turrets over in the first 5 minutes without some kind of explicit team strategy.

As to the tower diving case, I wonder how jarring it would be if they would, as you say, have enough oomph to kill someone on the third/fourth hit. It would certainly reduce the power of dives, but it might also really discourage some good aggressive action, potentially stalling out games. I will say that if turrets had more firepower to them against champions, it would probably really increase the value of late game champs that are just trying to survive the lane.

GinoSoldierAug 14, 201515 votes

{quoted}

I feel pretty similar that they often don't feel strong enough against dive, especially in the early game, but their regulation of minion waves and early pushers functions pretty well, since, especially in solo queue, it doesn't feel like people that push the wave are able to knock turrets over in the first 5 minutes without some kind of explicit team strategy.

As to the tower diving case, I wonder how jarring it would be if they would, as you say, have enough oomph to kill someone on the third/fourth hit. It would certainly reduce the power of dives, but it might also really discourage some good aggressive action, potentially stalling out games. I will say that if turrets had more firepower to them against champions, it would probably really increase the value of late game champs that are just trying to survive the lane.

How about giving them %max HP true damage instead of flat physical, so that even tanks have to beware and not simply ignore the things? I'd say enough to kill a full health champion in 4-5 hits would work. The only real difference would be that they'd actually still be useful late game as opposed to now.

Remlap1223Aug 14, 20156 votes

WOAH WOAH WOAH, BACK UP THERE!

I'm perfectly ok with %health damage on turrets, but no chance in hell do I want them to do true damage.

ThryaleAug 14, 20151 votes

what if it was flat phys dmg + 10% max hp true dmg, and if the enemy aa's the tower X number of times (like second turret shields) it loses the %hp bonus damage?

Dar RaksadaAug 15, 20152 votes

that would favour high as champions too much, while being too strict on slow attackers/melees. Jayce for example could use w for the aa's and then dive.

Sire HippingtonAug 14, 201511 votes

i really have no big problem with tanks and turrets, tanking a turret is kinda their job, and turrets hurt quite a bit once stacked. But squishy that hve the mobillity/range to dip in and out of towerange or champions with enough burst to pick up a quick kill have to little risk. The first 1-2 shots don't really hurt a squishy, and they rarly will take more than that befor loosing aggro again if played well.

junglerboy16Aug 14, 20154 votes

Try flat true damage instead, that way a tank is able to still do their job (really, what point is a tank if 50% of their job description becomes obsolete?) and Squishies aren't able to just dive without a care. The other option is % physical damage, which has the same overall effect.

MandaariAug 14, 20152 votes

My problem with turrets is more with how easily gamed they are. It's too easy for high mobility champions to dive and get out, taking minimal shots. There's so much less risk for them.

slippykittenAug 14, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I feel pretty similar that they often don't feel strong enough against dive, especially in the early game, but their regulation of minion waves and early pushers functions pretty well, since, especially in solo queue, it doesn't feel like people that push the wave are able to knock turrets over in the first 5 minutes without some kind of explicit team strategy.

As to the tower diving case, I wonder how jarring it would be if they would, as you say, have enough oomph to kill someone on the third/fourth hit. It would certainly reduce the power of dives, but it might also really discourage some good aggressive action, potentially stalling out games. I will say that if turrets had more firepower to them against champions, it would probably really increase the value of late game champs that are just trying to survive the lane.

Turrets should have to be itemized against imo. I shouldn't be able to play Irelia with 21/9 masteries and only a dorans blade and take 3 turret hits in a dive and walk out alive.

Turrets should either do true damage or %maxhp damage, so that champions that wish to get under turrets have to specifically build either armor or hp to take it. Right now turrets are so weak that anyone with any armor at all can live under them.

Knight SoIaire Aug 14, 20152 votes

first 5 minutes ... thats only 3 minutes of being on your lane

thats not even lvl6

i think that there is a big diference beetwen the time you and players consider a valid time for a turret to falll

potentially stalling out games

thats a thing that can be called a big con of lol's gameplay we don't have stuff that pushes the game forward ... most of the time its simple "overpower the enemy and take the objective while they are absent"

most of victories in lol are due to teams just snowballing other teams and capitalizing on deaths ... the main reason tank meta is rather hated concept is because the only way to win the game is for tanks to fight and they just arent good at dying

and the way our objectives work kinda encourages that ... since dragon and baron can create a potential 5v6 scenario ... nobody wants to contest when both teams are alive because that's borderline throwing the game

Sire HippingtonAug 14, 20152 votes

I feel like the best solution would be to move the shield from inner to outer turrets, it would help melees to farm beneath the turret without gettin forced away by ranged poke while squishys would be a bit saver vs dives. I think with the right tuneing turrets could become more of a save spot early without totally denying agressive play or coordinated dives(push in a wave, knock down the turret shield and with that the champion shield, dive as usuall)

But as it is now, i feel it's a bit snowbally, especially toplane. towers simply offer no real protection, especiall vs superior ranged poke. If i play a ranged toplaner and my enemie doesn't get help from his jungler, i often find my self with a up to 50cd lead at minute 10 if i have a good start, it doesn't feel like my opponent can do anything. Some trie to get lasthits, but get poked out and if they don't recall i can easily dive with low risk.

At the same time, if the enemie jungler does focuse on top early enough, they can easily dive me on a ranged squishy 2v1 even early on, and if a champ like riven gets a lead, there is no problem for her to dive solo...

WarWorkAug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I feel pretty similar that they often don't feel strong enough against dive, especially in the early game, but their regulation of minion waves and early pushers functions pretty well, since, especially in solo queue, it doesn't feel like people that push the wave are able to knock turrets over in the first 5 minutes without some kind of explicit team strategy.

As to the tower diving case, I wonder how jarring it would be if they would, as you say, have enough oomph to kill someone on the third/fourth hit. It would certainly reduce the power of dives, but it might also really discourage some good aggressive action, potentially stalling out games. I will say that if turrets had more firepower to them against champions, it would probably really increase the value of late game champs that are just trying to survive the lane.

I've had a game where I was fiora and got killed by the enemy vlad, so knowing i couldnt kill him i hugged turret. He dove me and 100-0 me before level 10 and left with over half his health. And as fiora if i kill you and you dont have tele and i have tiamat, ur tower is gone. Period.

MrWasjigAug 14, 20152 votes

I say put the slow back on the face-lazer towers (The inhib and Nexus towers) because they're now worthless. Without the slow they had before they're simply not threatening. When they had that slow they were respected. People wouldn't go near them because they would shred your face which meant you needed most of the team or a decent minion wave to dive.

Now though, I see people just casually stroll out of the enemy base tanking that face-lazer like it ain't no thing. (Cuz it's not)

Auz the RipperAug 15, 20151 votes

I have soloed them as Aatrox with zz'rots Only takes about ten seconds.

UPfreelyAug 14, 20152 votes

i feel like a large part of the frustration just comes from mobility creep or just champions that can almost completely negate a towers usefullness. Champions like riven/elise come to mind. also sometimes it just feels like tower range is too short.

chipndip1Aug 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I feel pretty similar that they often don't feel strong enough against dive, especially in the early game, but their regulation of minion waves and early pushers functions pretty well, since, especially in solo queue, it doesn't feel like people that push the wave are able to knock turrets over in the first 5 minutes without some kind of explicit team strategy.

As to the tower diving case, I wonder how jarring it would be if they would, as you say, have enough oomph to kill someone on the third/fourth hit. It would certainly reduce the power of dives, but it might also really discourage some good aggressive action, potentially stalling out games. I will say that if turrets had more firepower to them against champions, it would probably really increase the value of late game champs that are just trying to survive the lane.

I agree. I think the REAL problem is that the beam turrets for the base are way too weak, not the blasting ones. The beam ones take forever to dent a tank once laning hits...sometimes even with TWO beams on them at once. These things are supposed to hurt, and TWO of them literally means DOUBLE DAMAGE. The beam turrets need to be better deterrents, imo, but the laning turrets are in a relatively good spot. You can't dive them unless the enemy's really weak or you have like 4 people going in.

PaladinNOAug 14, 20155 votes

Oh, they don't feel strong enough against dives indeed - played Lulu top earlier today against Elise, and when getting ganked by Master Yi, I hugged the tower to the point where if I had hugged it any closer, I would have climbed atop it.

Anyway, first Elise fired her full burst in human form, taking a couple of tower shots before switching to spider form, then Yi Flashed and used his obvious Alpha Strike on me - the tower attacking Elise at this point, and this is where I used my Hugify - then she used her Rappel...

You can see where this is going, right? 2 abilities which makes the targets untargetable by tower shots?

From the tower's point of view, while they both were untargetable, I can imagine it would be something like this: [finally safe from further harm] http://us.123rf.com/450wm/fractalgr/fractalgr1207/fractalgr120700003/14488744-grayscale-icon-of-mother-bird-embracing-three-nesting-baby-birds.jpg before the sudden and unexpected http://img.izismile.com/img/img1/20081222/nuclear_power_48.jpg of me.

Or, from the attackers' perspective, before: https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/539233079580061696/9j5kclXA.jpeg

Needless to say, the tower felt quite useless - which it was - for a few, precious moments. It was close to a double kill, but they both got away alive, leaving me, due to the tower's neglect of duty - a simple duty, I might add - to my fate.

Rabid HuskyAug 14, 20152 votes

i would like some kind of anti grouping mechanic more than a few times ive been in lane then my opponent(s if im bot) jungle and mid all come in with the guy with more hp taking aggro while the other 2-3 champs work on trying to kill me i cant do anything itll still be a solid 10 seconds before anyone can come to lane and unless im tryndamere high chances or me dieing and unless i get some cc im not getting a kill to break even. im not suggesting anything broken but a system that has turrents attack multiple champions if they all do things to catch aggro like attacking the other champions champion under them to help keep things like team tower diveing from happening

TaarkiAug 15, 20152 votes

I agree. turrets should agro each champion that attack a champ allied to the turret. So if its a 3 man dive, and they all attack the champion who is allied with the turret, the turret then shoots out 3 bolts ( one to each champion)

Rabid HuskyAug 15, 20151 votes

thats exactly what im sayin

EeyoreAug 15, 20152 votes

Maybe make Heated Up persist between champions? At the moment switching targets resets the accumulated damage.

CosnirakAug 15, 20152 votes

What if Lightning Rod and Warming Up didn't reset so easily? Perhaps a 3 second window of them not acquiring an enemy champion as their target (regardless of actually firing at or hitting them) should be required to reset them. I've always felt that turret aggro juggling was too good but stuff like a simple one man dive is fine. I'm also fine with Heated Up's lenient resetting but one minion shot shouldn't completely reset both Warming and Heated completely.

In particular certain champions like Fizz and Vladamir and the item Zhonya's Hourglass also highly abuse the turret resetting mechanics in addition to completely dodging turret shots. Heck just a day or two ago I chased an enemy through their inner and inhib turret fully tanking both myself and got a kill and then made it out alive by running back through the inhib turret as Garen.

Teridax68Aug 13, 201510 votes

Turrets are bad for all the wrong reasons, imo. They feel really weak really quickly, and even when a team pushes a single lane heavily the inhibitor turrets don't feel spectacular. At the same time, just buffing them numerically would likely just stretch out games, which would be far worse overall. The bonus effects added during the Summoner's Rift overhaul also mostly either shrunk to really weak levels (e.g. tier 2 turrets and their personal shield) or just disappeared completely (e.g. beam turrets having a slow and damage reduction effect). Beyond that, I think there's also a serious issue with turrets discouraging melee champions from pushing as part of a team, due to how they end up being exposed, which just encourages top laners to splitpush even more when the rest of the team is grouping, and is likely one of the reasons why marksmen are such a fixture in every game (nobody else can push turrets with the same level of speed and consistency). On top of this, turrets don't feel particularly valuable, again because they quickly lose their threat, which is why items specifically designed to interact with them in some way (e.g. item 2053 , item 3056 , item 3512 ) aren't nearly as popular as they deserve to be.

Farther down, I think Riot should attempt to do a few crazier experiments with turrets, minions and lanes in general. Black Market Brawlers was a great experiment in making minions more interesting, and while brawlers might be a bit too complicated in the long run, I think there's a lot of stuff that could be put in place via both minions and turrets to make lanes and their structures feel more powerful and interesting without jeopardizing the game's pace or clarity. One thing worth trying, for example, would be to have turrets spawn minions at their feet, rather than the nexus, which would eliminate proxy farming, and another potential experiment could be to give one type of turret an additional shot per enemy champion in range, which would discourage ganging up on lone champions under their tower. Perhaps some turrets could just not fire any shots at all, and instead have other effects that would influence laning and champion interaction.

PL55Aug 13, 20154 votes

Yeah I felt really dirty when I tower dived as vi and took like four turret shots at level 6 and got out alive. Her passive shield did help but really I shouldn't be able to tank so many shots early on at f***ing level 6, if you tower dive at level 6 you should be guaranteed dead on the fourth shot.

YossarianSenseiAug 14, 20154 votes

Is it really because they're never useful when it matters, or is it because the enemy calculates the tower won't save you?

Weaker towers = faster gameplay. You're there to protect your towers, not the other way around.

Only Play DariusAug 14, 20152 votes

Turret diving is way too easy it feels like. It completely invalidates certain champs from competitive play because if a champ is vulnerable to dives, coordinated teams will abuse that extremely hard early on and won't really get punished for it.

IpolsAug 14, 20152 votes

Yes, upvote this you fools. Nasus Karthus item 3931

You have NO idea what you actually want Riot to do. If they listen you every early or mid game champs will become dead weight and our champion pool will be 30 instead of 120

ShonjlAug 30, 20151 votes

By 30 out of 120 you mean like that isn't the case already? Have you been playing league? I feel I would be generous to say that even a 3rd of those are commonly played.

IpolsAug 30, 20151 votes

That's because you are a meta sheep that follows only D1 and LCS picks, if you main a champion you'll do better with it than the average meta champ you could pick

Hatless CasualAug 14, 20152 votes

Honestly turrets should be true damage, the level of "this object that should prevent me from marching forward without minions but doesn't becuase I have one armor item" is a joke. The fact any support can build a item 3110 , item 3025 or item 3157 and ignore all the turrets is really bad.

Big Bang BobAug 15, 20152 votes

I swear, one wrong move, one bad gank, one bad roaming attempt, and you can consider your tower rubble.

Meep ManAug 14, 20151 votes

Arcane Oil Can + 270G = 450G +50% Health Regeneration per 5 Seconds Passive- Refill: Refills upon visiting your team's fountain. Can only contain 1 charge. The passive health regeneration is halved once all charges are used. Active- Arcane Oil: The closest tower, for 7.5 seconds, takes 35% reduced damage, deals 15% increased damage, shoots 35% faster, and can shoot at every enemy champion underneath it's range that has attacked an allied champion. The tower also ignores untargetability for the duration. The tower cannot have Arcane Oil reapplied to it for 3.5 seconds after the effect ends. (40 second cool down) (Requires 1 charge) Only one Arcane Oil Can can be purchased per champion.

This would be an early game item that could be bought if the enemy is extremely dive heavy and maybe even poke heavy. Use it and for 7.5 seconds your tower is empowered to help you deal with that Riven and roaming Zed that keep diving you. It has a 40 second cool down so it can't be purchased late game to make your Nexus Towers the toughest things ever continuously by constantly going to fountain and reapplying the buff to your towers.

This way the defending champion has to use gold to have a stronger tower and can only do so once per return to the lane. It also gives an interesting space where the enemy champion could make the target wiff a can to waste the charge. Then their jungler could come in and tower dive. It can also can't be purchased as a starter item since you can't get any pots with it. If you bought it first, it would be a real sacrafise to lane sustain.

Icestar1186Aug 30, 20151 votes

Instead of limiting it to 1 per champion, just make the passive/active unique. That's the point of unique passives/actives. This is a cool idea, but I think it might do better with a higher price.

DazedOnlookerAug 14, 20151 votes

Lol I Can't even count on my hand how many times i have literally had to abandon my 80% hp Tower because i saw a tanky as fk Malphite Gnar Hecarim coming my way.......hell i even jump ship if i see a Kayle Tristana Fizz because wtf they have the most op escapes, they can hop under turret..kill you, then hop right out 90% of the time while only taking like 2 tower shots -_-

Also why not just make the towers deal more and more damage for each one destroyed in a lane? like Bot tower 1(norm), 2(50% more dmg) and 3(110% more dmg)?.

Footie 117Aug 14, 20151 votes

What if turrets had stacking %hp truedamage that reset whenver an allied champion dies? that way the longer you can survive the more damage they take, but if the enemy kills you they have a reasonable chance of escaping without dying themselves

junglerboy16Aug 14, 20151 votes

Not to mention the ~~laser~~ tickle turrets. their damage has always been so low it's laughable. Baron buff minions mean unless you can devote all of your team to wave clearing lanes, you are going to lose one of them 4 out of 5 times. That's not even considering how ludicrously simple it is to tower dive an inhibitor turret.

Bronze RumbleAug 15, 20151 votes

I have to agree, tower diving this season is easy as shit and taking a turret shot is not punishing at all even at early lvls. that's why I always ask my jungler to help me dive all the time because I know I can get in and get out alive 95% of the time

A Prop PhoneAug 15, 20151 votes

There are a lot of options to try that could be cool.

Turret firing rate increases by 25% per nearby enemy, on hit stacking damage reduction (that way the more Yi auto attacks the harder the turret is to kill), or dealing mixed damage.

exe3Aug 15, 20151 votes

It's by design. Meddler recently said that towers are weak intentionally because they fear that no one will be able to end games if towers are good. This is what's led to no one ever buying 'tower counters' like BoC, Portal and Ohmwrecker because there's no point wasting an item slot on an item that isn't needed to kill towers.

The real issue of course is that towers completely lack gameplay. They have simplistic AI that shoots a single bolt at enemies. They need be more threatening in a gameplay point of view like every 3rd shot does AoE damage or something (i'd do a proper brainstorm but too tired atm) and their targeting AI needs to be overhauled, far too often I get tower dived and after the whole ordeal (where i'm dead ofc) the tower is still shooting flipping minions. Tanks also shouldn't be able to just ignore towers (except ult'd Alistair, I would view that as his strategic niche) but they can because they do no damage.

If this was fixed up then towers would be powerful, but wouldn't that mean teams can't end games because people could stall under their tower? Well that would be the case if there were no options to play against towers, fortunately we already have 3 already mentioned items that would be ripe for use against these newly empowered turrets (with more possibilities i'm sure). Furthermore you could even add new items/summoner spells for DEFENDING your turret. Imagine Garrison on SR, it'd be great.

tl;dr

Towers are weak by design so teams can end games. Imo they should be reworked to be powerful/can't be ignored and useful in defense but have items and summoner's spells (some of which already exist) that can be used to help with or against sieges/tower dives.

rG ThundragAug 15, 20151 votes

Another issue with turrets is that against AD laners you can build armor to help you dive/tank turret damage, however if you're against a magic damage oriented enemy you can't dive them by building MR generally.

So a split way to make armor stacking not so effective against turrets and to give MR increased value I would suggest turrets damage be split roughly 60/40 physical and magic damage.

Merlin1993Aug 15, 20151 votes

Perhaps a buff that increases tower damage based on the towers own missing heath? Could either make it shoot faster or just up the damage, might give riot another lever on towers. Also gives enemy team counter-play options.

Do we want to try to take down the tower, or do we want to tower dive for kills? Obviously they can tower dive then take it, but it might be better than now. Also could be a buff that only applies when enemy champions are near which would reduce the frequency of people killing towers in one minion wave, while not causing overly crazy side effects to how minion waves push on their own. They could also opt to make it a stacking buff based on how many enemy champions are near.

From there I'd imagine it'd be a numbers game.

I don't know if it or any of the ideas anyone's listed would fix it, but i definitely agree that towers frequently feel like they are under-powered or at times completely worthless.

BuzzinTateAug 15, 20151 votes

they took power away from the bullet turrets and invested it entirely into the lazer turrets.

.................them lasers op

NekusenAug 30, 20151 votes

they should make true damage or % max hp damage

Sennamon RollJan 6, 20161 votes

Why not instead restrict mobility under tower? Like have something similar to Poppy's new w or a slowing thing that ensures that if they spend too long under that tower, they won't escape well? And have it apply to everyone. Like if you are under your tower, it slows all enemy champs in the radius of turret aggro.