Riot's not being fair with their balancing

Morgy Morgy·Aug 18, 2015·122 votes·7,685 views

You know how Riot nerfed some champs for being too strong at a particular role? Alistar got nerfed because his top lane was annoying and strong (that bugfix was really a nerf) Karma got nerfed for being a much stronger mid laner than support Ekko was recently nerfed for being too good when built tank Xin Zhao was also nerfed recently because ap xin would be brutal with devourer So, where are the fizz nerfs? I mean, it's not like he can play top mid or jungle and build literally whatever the hell he wants and still instafuck people. OH WAIT.

146 Comments

The FastAug 18, 201548 votes

Is no one gonna mention the fact that the Xin nerf was reverted the exact next patch?

PoisonedPeaceAug 18, 201524 votes

ap xin would be brutal with devourer

The ol' placebo nerf

SokZaJeloAug 18, 201515 votes

Alistar toplane was 100% pick&ban in S4 Worlds for a reason. Karma was not an explicit nerf,it was a kit change to help her support. You could say that that's indeed a nerf to midlane Karma but that was not their main intention. Ekko's change was the only change out of the ones you mentioned that intentionally nerfed a champ's unintended role,and even that was compensated with buffs to AP. ~~Xin Zhao was nerfed because AP Xin with Devourer would be broken,not just good.~~ Xin Zhao's nerf got reverted.

Fizz top isn't broken like Alistar/Xin,nor does his intended role (mid AP) need more buffs. (maybe small ones,but that's it) How would they be able to nerf tank Fizz anyways? His W got changed multiple times,shifting between active %hp,passive %hp,etc. and tank Fizz still exists. Fizz's base damages already aren't that great,nerfing them further would be an unneeded hit to AP Fizz for no reason at all,tank Fizz is neither oppressive nor OP.

EDIT: To phrase it better. Riot nerfs alternate playstyles of champions if they consider that playstyle toxic. S4 Zilean mid was toxic with 0 counterplay bomb spam. S4 Alistar top was nerfed because of 0 counterplay w+aa combo. Runeglaive Ezreal was nerfed because it was OP.

Also,not all nerfs that shift a champ's position are made with that in mind,or with that as a general goal. Some position shifts are simply not intended or predicted by Riot. Maokai's buffs turned him into a toplaner,but that was not the goal of those buffs. etc.

AnidanAug 18, 20152 votes

people just don't like Fizz shrug

If he can build a certain way, they will hate him for it, no matter the reason. It's kinda been demonstrated in the past.

The Virgin PerryAug 18, 20153 votes

It's not that he can build a certain way, it's that he can build in everyway (tank, AP, AD, bruiser) and go anywhere but bot lane and still be completely viable. That is the problem. Also no one likes to be deleted by someone who can just hop out with an untargetability thats on a 5 sec cooldown.

SokZaJeloAug 18, 20154 votes

The thing is that neither of those playstyles are opressive or broken enough to require a nerf. Him being able to cover multiple roles is not an oddity,it's what's called a "flex pick". Many champions can fit multiple roles. Shen can go both top and support. Nautilus too. Lulu can go top,mid and support. Why are those not a problem but Fizz is?

And your last paragraph is just what AP Fizz is,he's an assasin,he's supposed to do that,and it's his intended role so if Riot ever decides that Fizz's versatility needs to go away then AP Fizz is the one that will stay,unless Riot changes it's mind,which they probably won't.

The Virgin PerryAug 22, 20151 votes

Yeah I guess you are right with the comparison with lulu. I just feel like fizz can be a bit too powerful at times. Come to think of it, he is actually pretty healthy, just frustrating to play against.

AnidanAug 19, 20153 votes

That sounds like the type of play freedom that I've heard people clamor for, and bemoan the loss of over my tenure in League. You have one camp saying "someone who can do everything is bad" and another that will commonly say "champions who are restricted to one playstyle are bad."

Fizz's freedom feels great, and I believe that more champions should have that kind of versatility rather than shitting on Fizz for having it. If we go over to dota2 we tend to see heroes that can very easily be used in more than one role, even if one role in particular is their most common (with Windranger being known for being able to go mid, suicide lane, safe lane, and support competently, for example)

VekknaAug 18, 201513 votes

Cassiopeia nerfed out of top after 1 successful LCS game.

Lissandra nerfed out of top.

Morgana nerf to support, nerfed into support.

Zyra nerfed into support.

Evelynn nerfed out of mid.

Ezreal nerfed out of mid (not that I'm sad about it).

Janna nerfed out of mid.

Ashe nerfed out of support.

Zilean nerfed out of mid.

Meanwhile Heimerdinger dominates two lanes with a kit that's toxic as fuck. Better nerf Teemo for being too hard to gank.

Silents429Aug 18, 20155 votes

What nerf did Ashe receive that made her unable to support?

kile147Aug 18, 20155 votes

I don't know exactly, but the entire rework kind of hurt her as a support, since she no longer has a good slow until she gains levels, and she can no longer poke with guaranteed crits. Maybe they meant something else, but that could be it?

Silents429Aug 18, 201510 votes

Yeah I rather they forget Ashe support in exchange for her main role being better.

Rustling BushAug 18, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile dominates two lanes with a kit that's toxic as fuck. Better nerf for being too hard to gank.

hermdinger will relies on having a bad player to lane against, as long as one realize that as long as hermdinger doesn't get a few kills, he will become useless by mid to end game, even if won lane. yes but his kit is probably the most gimped kit in the game, he was at one point the strongest champion in the game along side teemo, it seems like every yordle champion at one point or another was a problem except kennen.

KatCraftAug 19, 20153 votes

Heimerdinger has the most oppressive laning phase in the game. He can seige u under turret completely and you cannot gank him. Even if he might fall off later, he is still toxic as fck to lane against.

Tails DollAug 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Alistar toplane was 100% pick&ban in S4 Worlds for a reason. Karma was not an explicit nerf,it was a kit change to help her support. You could say that that's indeed a nerf to midlane Karma but that was not their main intention. Ekko's change was the only change out of the ones you mentioned that intentionally nerfed a champ's unintended role,and even that was compensated with buffs to AP. Xin Zhao was nerfed because AP Xin with Devourer would be broken,not just good.

Fizz top isn't broken like Alistar/Xin,nor does his intended role (mid AP) need more buffs. (maybe small ones,but that's it) How would they be able to nerf tank Fizz anyways? His W got changed multiple times,shifting between active %hp,passive %hp,etc. and tank Fizz still exists. Fizz's base damages already aren't that great,nerfing them further would be an unneeded hit to AP Fizz for no reason at all,tank Fizz is neither oppressive nor OP.

They nerf ap xin yet they let Kayle/Shy/Yi exist. Oh and they actually buffed Shy...

SokZaJeloAug 18, 20151 votes

The AP Xin nerf was reverted the patch afterwards. So he wasn't nerfed at all.

I have no idea what Shyvana buffs you speak of,infact she got a nerf in the Devourer patch. 5.11 was a buff,but that was before devourer,and she got a bugfix that lowered her damage.

Kayle/Yi are fine. They can do tons of damage if not taken care of,but so can everyone that deals damage.

Tails DollAug 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The AP Xin nerf was reverted the patch afterwards. So he wasn't nerfed at all.

I have no idea what Shyvana buffs you speak of,infact she got a nerf in the Devourer patch. 5.11 was a buff,but that was before devourer,and she got a bugfix that lowered her damage.

Kayle/Yi are fine. They can do tons of damage if not taken care of,but so can everyone that deals damage.

Yeah, they reduced her AoE dmg but left her On hit buff where it was. Last I remember her problem are her AAs not her W AoE dmg. Which was also barely neferfed (10 points at max lvl, early levls still the same)

SokZaJeloAug 19, 20151 votes

Shyvana is still not a problem. She deals quite a lot of damage while still being tanky,but unlike other tanks she has barely any utility,to the point that some people run smite/exhaust because she has no way of CC-ing the enemy except her ult,and even that is quite unreliable. Any decent peel will stop Shyvana from killing your carries,and her only way of gapclosing is her W speed increase,so even slows are very effective. She can kill people and still be tanky,but other tanks can help their team with massive utility.

Tails DollAug 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Shyvana is still not a problem. She deals quite a lot of damage while still being tanky,but unlike other tanks she has barely any utility,to the point that some people run smite/exhaust because she has no way of CC-ing the enemy except her ult,and even that is quite unreliable. Any decent peel will stop Shyvana from killing your carries,and her only way of gapclosing is her W speed increase,so even slows are very effective. She can kill people and still be tanky,but other tanks can help their team with massive utility.

You kidding right? Shyvana not a problem? Explain why she is banned in almost every game? Please.

SokZaJeloAug 19, 20151 votes

I explained why Shyvana is not nerf-worthy. Bans are not 100% accurate indicators of champion balance,if Riot balanced by bans then almost all nerfs would be to assasins. Zed,Kata,Yi,Rengar,etc. are all banned a lot and they don't require any nerfs. (Zed got buffed this patch)

Tails DollAug 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I explained why Shyvana is not nerf-worthy. Bans are not 100% accurate indicators of champion balance,if Riot balanced by bans then almost all nerfs would be to assasins. Zed,Kata,Yi,Rengar,etc. are all banned a lot and they don't require any nerfs. (Zed got buffed this patch)

Zed and Kata are rarely banned (at least on my games) Yi is banned because of stupid Dev (every time they try to make On hit junglers a thing this happens, same with shy) Rengo is banned because of his feast and famine play style, and the fact that can delete every squishy with little to zero counter play. (None wants him on his team, and none wants to deal with him) Shy is banned because of her being incredible tanky and dealing so much Dmg with Dev+BoTRK. I find it funny that people always argue that you can "peel" and "CC" and yada yada, like the enemy team is not going to do anything to prevent you from doing so, or like the "op" champ in question just charges in no fucks given, not like they can wait till CC is used, or small positioning mistakes are made.

It's like teamwork and strategies only exists to stop said "op" champ, but no to make them work.

SokZaJeloAug 20, 20151 votes

Of course she can dive in and get kills. I never said Shyvana is underpowered. I said that while her damage output is high,she isn't overpowered because she lacks the utility of other tanks. Look at any meta tank jungler's kit and you'll notice that they have a lot of what Shyvana is missing. Utility. She doesn't have hard CC to lock up your team,she doesn't have any tools to help her team outside of dishing damage. Shyvana is probably the least useful meta tank jungler when behind,because she lacks the damage to do her job and doesn't have any utility to offer outside from her ult,which is much less useful than other tanks' CC. And she falls behind very easily,not only does she need to snowball early to compensate her lack of BotRK,she relies on Devourer,which needs to be stacked. Taking dragons and crabs will hinder her stacking significantly. She also has bad ganks before level 6,so if you don't overextend she doesn't have early-game pressure. She is a good jungler,but she has her weaknesses and she is not overpowered.

Tails DollAug 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Of course she can dive in and get kills. I never said Shyvana is underpowered. I said that while her damage output is high,she isn't overpowered because she lacks the utility of other tanks. Look at any meta tank jungler's kit and you'll notice that they have a lot of what Shyvana is missing. Utility. She doesn't have hard CC to lock up your team,she doesn't have any tools to help her team outside of dishing damage. Shyvana is probably the least useful meta tank jungler when behind,because she lacks the damage to do her job and doesn't have any utility to offer outside from her ult,which is much less useful than other tanks' CC. And she falls behind very easily,not only does she need to snowball early to compensate her lack of BotRK,she relies on Devourer,which needs to be stacked. Taking dragons and crabs will hinder her stacking significantly. She also has bad ganks before level 6,so if you don't overextend she doesn't have early-game pressure. She is a good jungler,but she has her weaknesses and she is not overpowered.

Ok, I can see where you are wrong. She is not a tank. She is a Brusier of sorts. An AA on hit off tank with massive def stats on her passive.

And, again, she is banned every single game on yoloq, same as Kayle. Argue all you want, that shit doesnt happen on balanced champs.

SokZaJeloAug 20, 20151 votes

She might be abruiser,still doesn't nullify my argument.

She gets banned because people don't want to deal with her. Fizz,Zed,and numerous assasins are all banned frequently yet they don't require nerfs. Plus people got scared of the new devourer so that increased the ban rate of Shyv/Yi/Kayle/etc.

Tails DollAug 20, 20151 votes

{quoted}

She might be abruiser,still doesn't nullify my argument.

She gets banned because people don't want to deal with her. Fizz,Zed,and numerous assasins are all banned frequently yet they don't require nerfs. Plus people got scared of the new devourer so that increased the ban rate of Shyv/Yi/Kayle/etc.

Ok dude, if you think a champ with a 67.98% ban rate is fine, then by all means keep thinking that. Cant reason with stupid.

http://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana/Jungle

SokZaJeloAug 20, 20151 votes

You're acting like ban rate is the only factor that exists in a champion's balance. It's not. If you're really gonna use raw statistics as indicators of balance then she has 51% winrate,12th of junglers. If she was OP she would have a way higher winrate,even S2 Kassadin who definitely had a higher skillcap than Shyv had around 56% winrate. Requesting nerfs because of ban rate only is just stupid.

SokZaJeloAug 20, 20151 votes

I never said anything about Warwick not being broken. Infact,I said the opposite,that if Shyvana really was a problem she would have a bigger winrate,like Warwick and Kassadin.

Shyvana has a high banrate not only because of devourer release,but also because her power,damage,is the most noticable. In most cases,people will look back at their losses and remember Shyvana doing lots of damage much more than they will remember the toplane Maokai who saved 2-3 people with his ult.

Her kit is not toxic by Riot's measures,she has clear counterplay in being suspectible to poke and kite,as well as not offering much utility. You can't argue against this because this was the whole point behind the Juggernauts update.

And Devourer does not require any nerfs. It takes a while to stack,and the double on-hit effects don't have a major effect outside a few champions. Devourer champions deal lots of damage lategame,but that's the whole point of the item. Warrior junglers can make a huge impact on the game before a Devourer jungler gets enough stacks. Cinderhulk junglers have insane tankiness which is a big deal in teamfights,and most of them can early gank better than Devourer junglers.

Old Devourer was in such a bad spot that champions that should benefit from it the most built either Warrior or Cinderhulk. The only exception is Warwick and that's because he needs the on-hit effect for his ult.

NekusenAug 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

How would they be able to nerf tank Fizz anyways?

easy, lower the base damage for abilities and increase AP scaling, that way, if you want him to deal damage, you will have to actually invest on it, the way it is, you basically have an unkillable assassin. you know Fizz is a problem when every build on him is OP

AnidanAug 19, 20152 votes

What base damage are you even going to reduce on him? His bases aren't scary at all. His safety is a large part of why he works so well, not hilarious base damages like Ekko had.

His Q barely even has base damage, for example.

Voluug13Aug 19, 20153 votes

Zilean Mid was only a no-counterplay lane for assassins, and only against Zed/Fizz who relied on their mobility to nullify skillshots.

Zlean mid went OoM extremely easy. Push him and he needs to use mana to push or loses tower, outsustain him and he goes OoM in trying to harass you quickly, outrange him and you can counter harass him when he needs to get closer. Play a goddamn defensive lane he falls off like a brick. He also needs 2 mana items to function properly while those he was there to counter can jump straight into raw damage.

Zilean mid was merely a counterpick, just that a counterpick to Riot's favorite boys. So he had to go, cant have the Zilean screwing a Zed's flashy ''muh playz mechanics''.

And despite what Riot tries to do to phase out counterpick and the importance of champion select, the game is build upon it, and continues to be build upon it.

They just decide to ignore that fact when they feel like they need to justificate their nerfs to their problematic favs' counterpicks. And remember counterpicking to use it as a reason to say ''this assassin's kit isnt overloaded/toxic/OP because counterpick!''.

Riot can try to turn around or correct a champion's intended lane like Soraka or Alistar, and that is OK. But both Zilean and Karma were designed with Midlane capability in play. They just got nerfed for being able to play their supposed strenghs, namely, anti-assassin laning. Taric als has suffered from this, as he is also a fighter but top/jg is forbidden for him apparently.

Arch Mage MagnusAug 18, 201512 votes

Veigar Nerfed because he saw a few games as supp, then deleted when deathgrasp was scrapped.

Meanwhile Fizz can go where he wants. Annie can go where she wants. Lee Sin goes where he wants, as does Riven.

9baksQuJhbAug 18, 201528 votes

You forgot that DrMundo goes where he pleases.

KeevalroyAug 19, 20152 votes

He was deleted because he was shutting down Kalista the Cancer Kangaroo from making #LCSBIGPLAYS. Riot couldn't allow CertainlyT's then most recent mistake to not have the complete limelight. New champions means more LCS spotlight, and more spotlight means more sales!

KFC CashierAug 18, 20159 votes

What about Darius's Q being delayed because "instant casts have no counter play" but Annie can still insta stun 100% > 25% your entire team.

OrangesilkAug 18, 201535 votes

If your team all huddles together in a 500 unit radius when facing a fed Annie, they honestly deserve the nuke.

After a bit of climb, you start to notice Annie stuns 1 or 2 people at a time at best, because they know not to stick together.

KFC CashierAug 18, 20151 votes

JarvanIV ???

OrangesilkAug 18, 201514 votes

Well, if your team all huddles together in a 500 unit radius when facing the J4 + Annie wombo, they deserve the brutal impending death.

A case could be made for Orianna + Annie, but Annie as a support doesn't have the burst to really make it scary.

VardenSaladAug 18, 201526 votes

Veigar If people not being stupid was considered counterplay, this guy wouldn't be in the dumpster, crying softly.

Silents429Aug 19, 20152 votes

What was the counterplay to his old stun?

Annies works on a charge system, with low range, and is unable to use her abilities to farm minions.

What was Veigars weakness to his?

SasogwaAug 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

What was the counterplay to his old stun?

Annies works on a charge system, with low range, and is unable to use her abilities to farm minions.

What was Veigars weakness to his?

His entire kit, the fact he has no mobility whatsoever, he is mid-low ranged, he has high cooldowns and dies in a second if he missplays it.

What's the counterplay to mobility?

lB2kGRlc8yAug 19, 20154 votes

Itemization is a counter play, as well as predictive play. Veigar's Stun was no different than any other skillshot, it had a delay that let you know when it was being cast so you could change the direction you were moving, or you could just kill the Veigar trying to stun you. Banshee's made it a non-factor and merc treads made Vei require a full rank E or a W precast in order to even land anything. Veigar's stun was stupidly easy to read, since he has so little safety, he would always outrange all of his enemy's abilities, and when he wanted to stun them he would move up. Knowing that you could tell the second he stopped moving was the second he cast, and simply changing direction would allow you to avoid the stun. I played so many games against people who had this simple notion down that I can't believe so many unskilled players are crawling out of the woodwork claiming he was broken and uncounterable.

Silents429Aug 19, 20153 votes

Itemization isn't counterplay, it is countering, but prediction isn't a fair form of counterplay, their are many reasons for Veigar to stop moving, and it isn't always just stun. Nor is it reasonable to play a guessing game where the other end of his cage is going to end up, deciding if you are trapped inside or not.

As far as I am aware his old stun either had no delay or such an noticeably small one that you couldn't even tell in the first place.

lB2kGRlc8yAug 19, 20152 votes

It did have a delay and it was noticeable, just because you weren't good at reading it doesn't mean it wasn't there. Veigar's been my main mage pick since before S1 so I learned him inside out. Playing against him was incredibly easy as a result. What you're saying is as long as a person is good at aiming their skillshots, they're uncounterable, which is absolutely broken logic.

Silents429Aug 19, 20151 votes

The delay was like .2 seconds.

What you're saying is as long as a person is good at aiming their skillshots, they're uncounterable, which is absolutely broken logic.

When did I say that?

lB2kGRlc8yAug 21, 20152 votes

You inferred that since prediction isn't fool proof that it is not a valid argument for counterplay. As for Veiger's stun, the delay was short, but when combined with basic logic of his current goals (Stunning a bitch that's running away or advancing towards him) you can easily maneuver around it. That's what skilled players did against him, and what they still do against other champions reliant on skillshots or delayed area effects. The only valid argument there is for a champion with abilities that can't be properly countered by predictive play is Annie, and there are still tells she gives off alerting players to her current intention. Factor in that it was his only tool for safety and the delay time was absolutely reasonable.

KFC CashierAug 19, 20152 votes

you're silver 4 with 5 wins and 9 losses

RatbertAug 19, 201510 votes

He's still right.

UltraSceptileAug 18, 20153 votes

{quoted}

If your team all huddles together in a 500 unit radius when facing a fed Annie, they honestly deserve the nuke.

After a bit of climb, you start to notice Annie stuns 1 or 2 people at a time at best, because they know not to stick together.

Yes stuns one or two people

And then kills them with zero counterplay.

OrangesilkAug 19, 20154 votes

Eh, such is the life of an ADC. There's many other champions who 100-0 you from the midgame onwards even if they aren't fed and are just well-farmed Riven Diana Ahri Akali Syndra Fizz Talon Leblanc Rengar Zed Malzahar

I'd recommend item 3102 when an Annie is 100-0ing you, it screws up her combo entirely, and since she's usually the one initiating, the spellshield probably won't be broken when she does. After she has wasted her cooldowns, she's now next to your backline, squishy and vulnerable.