Are ranged auto-attacks too strong?

Salson··126 votes·5,554 views

While the ratio of base stats to range was fine in the past, numerous balance changes, Class Updates and Keystone Masteries seem to have broken that balance. Keystones in particular seem very strong with Marksman due to the cumulative scaling of AD/AS/Crit/Lifesteal/Pen, where they can enhance or even replace one of the components.

Here I have 2 proposed changes:

-Lifesteal should only have 66% efficiency on ranged champions. Due to the massive increase on supports defensive utility, healing and shielding stat in particular, the current lifesteal values are simply too much for anything to break through and deal meaningful damage. The value itself is flexible, can be 50% or 75% or a similar value.

-Infinity Edge damage shift from 250% to 205% + 2.5% per level. Assuming Marksman are supposed to remain a late game damage threat, their current 2 item powerspike is simply too strong. This should even it up a bit, and hit a snowballing Marksman harder than a struggling one.

That's my 2 cents, I could include Supports here, but that might be better in another thread.

96 Comments

Dingding12349 votes

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.

Jeanne fan club20 votes

Ap scaling abilities almost never have a 100% ratio on them, but all auto attacks have a 200%/250% ad ratio on them with crit chance.

Salson22 votes

That's because AP ratios were balanced with higher AP or later Blue Buff ap increase in mind.

With both gone AP took a hard hit in the late game.

Cosmic Warper5 votes

{quoted}

That's because AP ratios were balanced with higher AP or later Blue Buff ap increase in mind.

With both gone AP took a hard hit in the late game.

This. Blue buff ap% removal along with ap reduction of most AP items means many mages can't perform lategame unless they have high ratios or low downtime on their damage output

I Main Swain4 votes

not to mention the crippling mana changes on ap itemization. basically youre either someone like swain who's meant to be taking damage and walking into their team or youre buying morello whether you like it or not.

Jeanne fan club3 votes

{quoted}

That's because AP ratios were balanced with higher AP or later Blue Buff ap increase in mind.

With both gone AP took a hard hit in the late game.

yeah, its kind of ridiculous now that a crit atuo attack will do more damage than most ap abilities at any stage of the game.

Bronze Demon11 votes

Crit/critical dmg/ad/as/pen/lifesteal/onhit VS resistance/health/as reduction/flat block (a joke past level 3) /regen (a joke in combat)

2x2x2x2x2x2x2 vs 2x2x2x2x2

128 vs 32 damage is too strong nerf pls

PB4UAME6 votes

Really though, its worse than that. HP and resists scale linearly with each other, and every other form of damage reduction is multiplicative scaling, or linear with regards to regen/flat block.

So, it's more like 2+2+2+2+2 = 10 for defenses, where as all of the offensive stats scales quintically in the form: (1+L)(AD*AS*CC*CD*P) where L stands for Lifesteal, AD is Attack Damage, AS is Attack Speed, CC is Crit Chance, CD is Crit Damage and P is a modifier to represent the %increase in damage caused by the total of your penetration and reduction to their resistances.

If they get an LDR you then have to modify it by 1.15[(1+L)(AD*AS*CC*CD*P)] If they get a BotRK you have to include another term additive of value (1+L)(.08THP*AS) or 1.15(.08THP*AS) if they also have an LDR

DrCyanide2 votes

Pro tip: fix your math by typing \* instead of *

PB4UAME1 votes

Thanks for pointing that out, had forgotten to put those in.

Meeks0114 votes

Regen is enough to cancel out Twitch passive (though he's supposedly quite strong right now, I wouldn't mind Riot nerfing other parts of his kit to buff the passive).

5050BS10 votes

No, its Life Steal that is OP.

When a AutoAttack champ can LIfeSteal 300+ on every auto attack there is a problem.

Narzal9 votes

Honestly it doesn't really matter anymore, Rito made the game into a 20 min unfun toxic 1 sided snowball fiesta of burst. Why would you give Infinity edge the w azir treatment, 20+dmg late game? As if the game will ever reach late game, I mean you can burst/cc the fed adc with a hyper carry burst like item 3193 Chogath but a fed tank darkinKayn,MasterYi(list hard hypercarry)etc yeah you gotta end the game fast before they eventually just stomp you 25 mins into the game. All about the comp,itemization, and bursts per seconds, Ap items are a joke, tanks and ad items are superior, ornn is legit a trap as people buy his late game items first instead of another item.Tomorrow isn't the same as Tommorow. Sorry for ranting.

Thilmer9 votes

-The champ with ranged autos can't miss them.

-The enemy champ can't dodge them.

-% crit can basically cause burst damage.

I won't say "broken", but I don't see any counterplay here unless you are a tank with 6K life and 200 armour.

PaffWasTaken9 votes

Back in the day, items with special effects had weaker variants for ranged attacks but now, even the masteries don't give a damn about the fact that you either hit people with a club or shoot missiles at them

SpiritOfOdysseus5 votes

This. Damage items should ALWAYS have a higher potential for melee champions because of the pure nature of ranged vs melee champs.

ModCaptainMårvelous8 votes

While the ratio of base stats to range was fine in the past, numerous balance changes, Class Updates and Keystone Masteries seem to have broken that balance.

Not really, ranged carries have ALWAYS had the long end of the stick. It doesn't matter if the stick was two miles long or two inches long, ranged ADCs always got the better end of it. I can only think of two major times in League's entire existance where the best players (Pros) opted for a non-ADC in the bot lane in a meta sense. This, of course, doesn't count weird one-off situations but multiple teams/pros picking something else:

  • 1: Mordekaiser's insane rework where he was busted to the point of being the best pick bot lane.
  • 2: Ziggs botlane earlier this year.

Of course, the "LUL ADC 2015" and "LUL ADC 2017" bandwagon quickly killed off both of those, regardless if they were good (Ziggs) or bad (Morde) for the game.

Salson5 votes

I honestly don't have a problem with Adc being strong.

But a snowballed Adc should be stoppable by a snowballed Top/Mid/Jungle. The game should not be decided in a single lane.

Now....Nasus is retarded, and he still gets shit on by a competent botlane, forsing him to be even more retarded....only to still be shit on.

DuskDaUmbreon5 votes

{quoted} -Lifesteal should only have 66% efficiency on ranged champions. Due to the massive increase on supports defensive utility, healing and shielding stat in particular, the current lifesteal values are simply too much for anything to break through and deal meaningful damage. The value itself is flexible, can be 50% or 75% or a similar value.

Why? Marksmen already are balanced around lifesteal. How? Because their exceptionally low base defensive stats mean they're very susceptible to burst. Burst beats DPS, DPS beats tank, tank beats burst. This triangle has existed since the dawn of RPG games.

And don't give me that load of BS about "Death's Dance/supports making it impossible to burst an ADC!". It simply doesn't. I've been bursted with it as an ADC, I've seen ADCs bursted with it, and I've bursted ADCs who have it both as a mage and as an assassin. The only things they stop are assassins who are either incompetent or too far behind to have any impact at all. Which is how it should be.

-Infinity Edge damage shift from 250% to 205% + 2.5% per level. Assuming Marksman are supposed to remain a late game damage threat, their current 2 item powerspike is simply too strong. This should even it up a bit, and hit a snowballing Marksman harder than a struggling one.

A fair change, assuming that it actually balances out in the end. However, your reasoning behind it is bogus. A marksman is generally useless against everyone until they have a sustain item, a complete Zeal item, and IE completed. They're not killing anyone but someone stupid enough to ignore them before that time. The "2 item power spike" for ADCs is a myth. It's far closer to a "2 item point in time where they don't need to be spoon-fed every last minion to not die".

And It would not hit a snowballing marksman harder than a struggling one. A struggling ADC is behind in levels as well as items. Now they not only have to deal with having less gold, but even the items they have are less effective than the opposing ADC's items. Now, not only is that Ashe down 1kg in CS, kills, and assists from that Draven, her IE that she completed is now actually worth less than Draven's as well!

Salson13 votes

The thing is, the new support itemization makes low base stats bogus. I did state that.

Damodar4 votes

Then maybe it's support itemization and not adc itemization? Cause nerfing adc itemization will only make them even more reliant on enchanter supports and make it worse when enchanter supports aren't taken.

Salson10 votes

Both need nerfs. Getting through a Knighted Braum isn't really that different.

This is the nerfs are light, % heal and shield is rather strong in it's own right, and locket is cost efficient enough to be run on toplane tanks.

Together, bot lane can take about 50% of the teams power, even if both have 20% separately.

IPromiseTomorrow3 votes

We were taling about adcs and no mention of 1v1 or 2v1 an adc.

If yiu 2v1 a support and adc you're bound to lose

Limrick5 votes

Remove Shiv crit so Tristana can't do 3/4 of your HP on her first auto with Shiv+IE.

Cosmic Warper6 votes

{quoted}

Remove Shiv crit so Tristana can't do 3/4 of your HP on her first auto with Shiv+IE.

Vayne's shiv + IE Q crit is even worse

Meeks0115 votes

item 3075 Grevious Wounds only lasts a second and requires people to use basic attacks against you vs item 3123, on which it lasts 3 seconds and applies with ALL PHYSICAL DAMAGE. item 3165 lasts a solid 8 seconds, but only activating on champions below 35% health makes it pretty useless when you can't get an ADC below that point.

General Esdeath 4 votes

I feel like ranged champs should be focused more on attack speed than flat damage

HenzoAF3 votes

You forgot one, Critical Damage is the 6th of these cumulative attributes.

Eternal Torment2 votes

AD/AS/Crit/Lifesteal/Pen

he literally mentioned it as a 3rd point. when you speak of crit, you include damage and chance alltogether since IE delivers both in one item.

Sujiren3 votes

Reduce the lifesteal from critical strikes, problem solved.

Dingding1233 votes

You know, I wouldn't mind lifesteal just being straight-up halved for ranged champions, alongside halved damage from Shiv items.

Nipsahoy3 votes

Im so sick of reading these threads by some low ELO trash that come up with some magical scenario where every ad builds death dance, along with reaching their 2 item power spike in 15 minutes and they all have Janna building ardent censer EVERY SINGLE GAME, with locket, Mikaels, face of the mountain, redemption and they still somehow have 20% lifesteal and 60% crit on top of all this by 20 minutes. It doesn't fucking happen stop spouting this crap. I mean maybe if you feed that adc 20 kills by 10 minutes they might have that but that's about the only way.

GayFluffyUnicorn12 votes

What would you know about how the game is played in gold2 ? You are literally low elo trash yourself. Then again you are ADC main and ofc don't want to lose that sweet freelo.

SkeltzAlukard7 votes

Upvoted, saw his division, he mains adc. Downvoted

Strawberrycocoa2 votes

The entire game has been built around protecting the ADC. Defend yours, gib theirs, win. Been that way since Season 1. The whole pyramid collapses if ADCs aren't the top dog #1 Mary Sue damage dealer anymore.

Salson6 votes

Pyramids were built by slaves, so people who support the Adc pyramid also support slavery.

They actually feel like the type to do so, had they been born 200 years earlier.

Leetri1 votes

Slaves didn't build the pyramids, that's a myth spread by movies like The Ten Commandments. They were hired laborers.

PB4UAME1 votes

In truth its slightly between the two, from what I've read. They were more or less forced to work, but they didn't work long hours, they were well fed, and they had lodgings provided. So, technically still slave labor, but it was actually pretty good treatment, and they were freed once the projects were completed, so perhaps indentured servitude?

Still, I believe his point is more the metaphor's meaning, than the literal structure of the metaphor itself.

GayFluffyUnicorn5 votes

No it has not been the way since s1. ADCs have always been collapsed before 30 minutes into the game. It was very common for the toplaner to just 1v2 the enemy botlane. Right now 20 mins into the game the ADC 1v1 the toplaner no matter how much items or levels he has above them.

mlgspacedorito2 votes

Im good with the first one but Id rather just have IE stay the way it is. Im probably bias cuz trynd main but It works well for me atleast.

Salson2 votes

True assuming the change happens Tryn and Yas should get buffs.

Though I thought Tryn only gets IE as a 4/5th item.

MLDzXnRRR4 votes

Both champions need tweaks and reworks. Yasuo's kit is overloaded, Trynda's underpowered and one dimensional.

mlgspacedorito1 votes

Well when i play trynd i rush stat shiv and Ie and it kicks major ass.

joku jaskanen2 votes

Or simpler..

All ranged attacks do 50% damage to targets in melee range.

Ðelofasht3 votes

[{quoted}](name=joku jaskanen,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=VAL9hQWd,comment-id=0022,timestamp=2017-08-26T14:36:03.076+0000)

Or simpler..

All ranged attacks do 50% damage to targets in melee range.

That makes less sense, both gameplay wise, and according to physics. Projectiles lose strength as they travel, being more powerful at closer range. That would punish champions like Vayne, Draven, Lucian, and Graves, while making already strong and popular champions (such as Twitch, Cait, and Trist) even stronger. They should do less damage from further back, if a Marksman is in melee range they should be vulnerable to CC and the like.

Your solution doesn't solve issues at all, it exacerbates the problems.

joku jaskanen2 votes

It's a old RPG thing to balance out range advantage - tweak numbers and champs that it effects.. in RPGs its usually - to hit penalties, but those aren't really applicable here.

Physics be damned.. Not like the conservation of matter and energy is really applicable in game as it is.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

Honestly why don't we make life-steal flat,but have increased values on melees?

MLDzXnRRR2 votes

Melees can't auto attack. Even Irelia gets permastunned, because everyone is now is with knockups, so tenacity doesn't do anything. You press all buttons and hope that the ranged champions that are out of CC range will finish the enemy team.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

So your solution;let's remove life steal on every melee item?

Melee can AA,it's just hard to get to your target in the current meta,tho there are melee's who make good use of life steal.

MLDzXnRRR2 votes

Lifesteal can't be balanced. You get 1shotted or you tank with lifesteal. Look Aatrox. He is a melee champion with base stats of a ranged and gets 1shotted by anything, because he would be too strong, if he was good. Noone above silve elo facetanks or tries to 1v1 lifestealing champions. You run and press buttons from safe distance.

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