Is the whole subclass of Juggernauts an unfair concept?

Laçez··4 votes·2,357 views

I honestly don't feel as though having the ability to pump out damage equal to that of a squishy carry while building off tank is a fair concept in any respect. Juggernauts are too well rounded and although, people say "oh they lack mobility", doesn't mean they aren't fast and don't have mean of getting onto you. At the end of the day 1v1'ing a Juggernaut is something that is inevitable, your team can't always be there to back you up to rotate between these giant damage dealing tanks, and you are forced to wait for death. No matter what lead you build, no matter how well you have played in order to ensure this Juggernaut doesn't become a problem, they always do. The mixture of cheap tank Items, high base / %health damage, ridiculous tank mysteries, decent movement speed, along with effective CC will never produce a game that is balanced. This is especially true when the other classes have clear weaknesses that glare out and give you the opportunity for counter play.

"ADC In 2K17" is no joke, yes ADCs have damage, a lot of damage, especially when looking at Vayne / Draven / Caitlyn. However I'm pretty sure it is generally accepted when you get on to an adc (by that I mean in close proximity), the likelihood of them dying increases by an insane amount and that is where most of the counter play comes from, (maybe a little more is needed for champs such as Vayne or Ezreal). Therefore being able to kite and position is a key requirement to being an effective ADC. Yet still even if you are good at that role someone like Hecarim {Irelia will destroy you. I thought the role of Juggernauts would mean they hit their power spikes much later due to how well their kits seem to perform, but after the first back, after that first Sunfires, they are invincible, you either have to play passive and wait to get destroyed underneath your weak tower that seems to do no damage to them, or you have to get your jungler to sit you, which impacts the other lanes negatively.

For me personally, I like to play Ekko and Kindred, they have good mobility but at the end of the day they need to get close to deal their damage. I often find when playing Ekko against a champ such as Renekton, I am completely useless, the poke you have is already weak and due to his innate sustain in lane I have to focus on getting an early kill or building a decent Cs lead while allowing for my jungler to gank. I can build a lead that would allow for me to stomp against any other class, but Juggernauts... Nope. If I build defensive I and my team lose out, if I build damage to prioritise targets such as the adc it still doesn't change the fact that I still have to fight the juggernaut and since I am borderline useless against them, I have to rely solely on my team to deal with that. I do not mind this at all, I have no problem with teamwork and LOL is a team oriented game, but where I am unable to deal with a single class, despite doing so well, that is where my qualms lie.

The idea of having to counter pick classes just so you don't lose is not counter play in the slightest. It takes the fun out of the game and not just this, it is impossible to do in blind pick, which I like to play as it allows me to learn more. Counter play is more to do with having to incorporate tactics such as teamwork/ builds / fighting techniques to perform better overall. With Juggernauts there honestly is no such thing; like I said for ADCs their weak point is getting pinned down, they are vulnerable to burst and CC, with Juggernauts their only glaring weakness is having range and getting kited - not every champ has this and it just gives them such an advantage against other champs that aren't also Juggernauts, if they don't have range they can't fight you. What am I able to do against a Nasus that has a disgusting perma slow + attack speed debuff, insane tanking abilities, insane lifesteal capabilities that scale with the damage dealt and does damage equal to a full rotation of abilities with a single Q? I get it, fight as a team, but then again developing champs that can only be dealt with effectively with a 5 man is number one, not balanced, two assuming they are constantly out of position and not team-fighting and three a dumb concept. They say focus the Adc, focus the squishes, but when there is a Juggernaut that is clearly a problem, not only are you focusing almost all your damage onto this one champion you are throwing the game, by the time that one person is dead the teamfight is over because it isn't like the enemy team isn't going to watch you slowly kill their teammate. You can't just run "leeroy Jenkins" into the adc. The Juggernauts also have peel. People complain about ADCs in the top lane, but how else are Juggernauts supposed to be suppressed in the lane and prevented from becoming what feels like a boss fight from the moment they get 2 items? (I don't play adc top lane just so you know...) I find it unfair that Juggernauts are semi-able to run in balls deep and take next to no damage while still being able to get a kill.

Anyways I really need an understanding of what I might be doing wrong or get an idea of what I should be doing against Juggernauts as this has always been a problem that has only gotten worst from when I started playing league...

32 Comments

Quepha7 votes

It's the most fair concept for a class in the game as they have a weakness in their very definition.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

No, it's the most counter-pickable concept for a class.

In the champion selection, the lane is decided. You didn't counter pick, the juggernaut wins lane. There's no in between.

Snowman Arc1 votes

Ok, one champion wins lane over the other, big deal. You can pick Darius and I can pick Maokai. You win the lane, I win the lategame teamfights, while not really falling behind in lane anyway.

PermabannedGaren6 votes

{quoted}

I honestly don't feel as though having the ability to pump out damage equal to that of a squishy carry while building off tank is a fair concept in any respect. Juggernauts are too well rounded and although, people say "oh they lack mobility", doesn't mean they aren't fast and don't have mean of getting onto you. At the end of the day 1v1'ing a Juggernaut is something that is inevitable, your team can't always be there to back you up to rotate between these giant damage dealing tanks, and you are forced to wait for death. No matter what lead you build, no matter how well you have played in order to ensure this Juggernaut doesn't become a problem, they always do. The mixture of cheap tank Items, high base / %health damage, ridiculous tank mysteries, decent movement speed, along with effective CC will never produce a game that is balanced. This is especially true when the other classes have clear weaknesses that glare out and give you the opportunity for counter play.

"ADC In 2K17" is no joke, yes ADCs have damage, a lot of damage, especially when looking at Vayne / Draven / Caitlyn. However I'm pretty sure it is generally accepted when you get on to an adc (by that I mean in close proximity), the likelihood of them dying increases by an insane amount and that is where most of the counter play comes from, (maybe a little more is needed for champs such as Vayne or Ezreal). Therefore being able to kite and position is a key requirement to being an effective ADC. Yet still even if you are good at that role someone like Hecarim {Irelia will destroy you. I thought the role of Juggernauts would mean they hit their power spikes much later due to how well their kits seem to perform, but after the first back, after that first Sunfires, they are invincible, you either have to play passive and wait to get destroyed underneath your weak tower that seems to do no damage to them, or you have to get your jungler to sit you, which impacts the other lanes negatively.

For me personally, I like to play Ekko and Kindred, they have good mobility but at the end of the day they need to get close to deal their damage. I often find when playing Ekko against a champ such as Renekton, I am completely useless, the poke you have is already weak and due to his innate sustain in lane I have to focus on getting an early kill or building a decent Cs lead while allowing for my jungler to gank. I can build a lead that would allow for me to stomp against any other class, but Juggernauts... Nope. If I build defensive I and my team lose out, if I build damage to prioritise targets such as the adc it still doesn't change the fact that I still have to fight the juggernaut and since I am borderline useless against them, I have to rely solely on my team to deal with that. I do not mind this at all, I have no problem with teamwork and LOL is a team oriented game, but where I am unable to deal with a single class, despite doing so well, that is where my qualms lie.

The idea of having to counter pick classes just so you don't lose is not counter play in the slightest. It takes the fun out of the game and not just this, it is impossible to do in blind pick, which I like to play as it allows me to learn more. Counter play is more to do with having to incorporate tactics such as teamwork/ builds / fighting techniques to perform better overall. With Juggernauts there honestly is no such thing; like I said for ADCs their weak point is getting pinned down, they are vulnerable to burst and CC, with Juggernauts their only glaring weakness is having range and getting kited - not every champ has this and it just gives them such an advantage against other champs that aren't also Juggernauts, if they don't have range they can't fight you. What am I able to do against a Nasus that has a disgusting perma slow + attack speed debuff, insane tanking abilities, insane lifesteal capabilities that scale with the damage dealt and does damage equal to a full rotation of abilities with a single Q? I get it, fight as a team, but then again developing champs that can only be dealt with effectively with a 5 man is number one, not balanced, two assuming they are constantly out of position and not team-fighting and three a dumb concept. They say focus the Adc, focus the squishes, but when there is a Juggernaut that is clearly a problem, not only are you focusing almost all your damage onto this one champion you are throwing the game, by the time that one person is dead the teamfight is over because it isn't like the enemy team isn't going to watch you slowly kill their teammate. You can't just run "leeroy Jenkins" into the adc. The Juggernauts also have peel. People complain about ADCs in the top lane, but how else are Juggernauts supposed to be suppressed in the lane and prevented from becoming what feels like a boss fight from the moment they get 2 items? (I don't play adc top lane just so you know...) I find it unfair that Juggernauts are semi-able to run in balls deep and take next to no damage while still being able to get a kill.

Anyways I really need an understanding of what I might be doing wrong or get an idea of what I should be doing against Juggernauts as this has always been a problem that has only gotten worst from when I started playing league...

Hecarim is not a juggernaut.

He's actually a huge pussy in prolonged fights against people he can't blow up nearly immediately. It is laughably easy to 1v1 Hecarim as an actual juggernaut, a skirmisher, or most other divers.

edit: All right, continuing to read your post. Renekton is also not a juggernaut. He is what's known as a "diver", a fighter with more mobility and way to get past the frontline than a juggernaut, but who has to sacrifice more damage to be tanky, and vice versa. They can do comparable damage, but tend to be easier to crack.

Finished your post. There is nothing wrong with some champions simply being stronger in a 1v1 scenario than another.

Do you know what counterplay Corki has against a Tryndamere, Master Yi, Xin Zhao, or even a late game Vayne? None. There is no scenario where he beats one of those champions late game in a duel that doesn't rely on the person playing one of the latter champions being bad, beyond them maybe having less summoners or not having all of their abilities up.

Big Lincoln4 votes

juggernauts are a great concept, you only listed one

the actual list of juggernauts Darius Garen Nasus Mordekaiser ? Skarner Volibear Trundle TahmKench Illaoi Olaf Shyvana DrMundo Yorick

the problem with most of these champions is that they're old and outdated. there's almost no mechnical complexity or skill cap with them, and they win a lot mostly through just having better stats. Also that they're intended by Riot to be very extreme in strengths and weaknesses, where most of them have no answer to kiting or disengage, but are completely ridiculous if you have neither. The concept of them is fine; it's the execution of them that sucks. except for Darius; he's perfection

you beat Nasus by having a QSS or being a caster. yeah, auto-attackers except for Yi with ult kind of suck vs him; that's the point, it's why he's a good duelist. Counter-picks are not unhealthy; they're the exact opposite, and they're natural to any game.

Beldair1 votes

Juggernauts

Nasus Darius Mordekaiser Illaoi Trundle Olaf Garen Shyvana Udyr Dr. Mundo Volibear Yorick

Copied from a Dev post..

Tahm is a Warden.

Big Lincoln1 votes

fuck riot

tahm's a 'naut

five oh tree 1 votes

^ He really does play like a juggernaut in the top lane. Should make him a hybrid.

Beldair3 votes

He plays like a Warden in Support.

Think about it: a shield to absorb some dmg, super tanky, and a swallow to save allies.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts

Nasus Darius Mordekaiser Illaoi Trundle Olaf Garen Shyvana Udyr Dr. Mundo Volibear Yorick

Copied from a Dev post..

Tahm is a Warden.

Riot Lists Singed as Unique and while I agree, I think he fits the overall concept of a juggernaut to a T.

OurLestrade2 votes

The concept of juggernauts makes sense in theory, but in practice they're just balls of stats that beat you with their raw numbers more often than not. Wasn't Riot trying to get rid of that sort of design?

LordGeovanni1 votes

how does that make sense you want to have more stats than the the other champion have more range than them and have more speed than them.

Ahristocats4 votes

Darius concept makes sens to me in both theory and practice

and he isn't a ball of stat, and the only stat he has is his passive that he gets with 5 stacks

SaltyKracka1 votes

And his ricockulous base stats and damages.

Aptest2 votes

at the end of the day, every champion needs to have some truly unfair quality, in order to merit playing.

people don't want to play 'mr fair' who gets counter-played at every turn and can't get anything done because they are so fair that there is always something effective to do against them.

you want to win, and to win you want some special thing your champion can do, to make you win. That special thing has to be inherently unfair, otherwise the other team will just counteract it.

the important thing is to make sure every champion has some reasonably accessible circumstances in which it is completely unfair to his opponents, and that the opponent also gets his set of circumstances to be completely unfair and not have a situation where "my circumstances happen at the same time as yours and override yours always".

Ralanr1 votes

Sion's only unfair quality is his health stacking. Which honestly doesn't feel that powerful until when it doesn't matter.

Big Lincoln1 votes

that's not even unfair; he has fucking garbage base HP (defeats the entire purpose of the passive) and it takes him a lot longer to get any meaningful gains from the passive in the first place

Aptest1 votes

well banging on your towers without a care in the world, then shouting "cowards" while trolololing towards your own fountain every time you are seriously contested sounds somewhat annoying an unfair to me.

Big Lincoln1 votes

you can intercept his ult

no problem here

LordGeovanni2 votes

People beleive that squihsies can do damage because they are squishy rather its because they are ranged that they can build squishy and to do damage and still be safe. juggarnauts cant do as much damage as squishy character but squishy characters will not have enough DEFENSES to survive if they get caught that is the weakness of melee characters that they cant do anything until they get in range and even then they need exteneded fights to do anything unless their enemy is has no defenses in which case how do you have no defenses and want to be as durable as a tank or fighter. In the past seasons mages and marksmens had to build some defenses just like everyone else to survive long enough to be useful (that was when mobile assassins were super strong along with mages haveing low cooldown burst so they con continuiously use it.) that meta is back again so if you feel that you dont survive long enough to be useful look to the past and build some defenses to insure you survive longer and there fore do more damage. The meta only changed when riot cut the hp mr and armor on most defensive items makeing it easier to kill tanks and fighters. (and at the same time increased the cooldowns of tanks skills wether it be defensive or damage and lower the cooldowns of mage and adc skills )

Mordepool2 votes

Renekton is a diver Hecarim is a diver. Your lack of game knowledge hurts your argument more than I ever could

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Oh and yet now a month later you're agreeing with another thread that there are other juggernauts aside from the ones riot has stated.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

Saying juggernauts are unfair conceptually is like saying Melee is unfair conceptually, ...........which is utterly ridiculous.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

That's not at all similar. Juggernauts specifically deal tons of damage with little gold put into their builds to start, and have built in sustain and defenses so much so that they don't actually have to build defense items and there are no items that counter them.

ChaddyFantome2 votes

{quoted}

That's not at all similar. Juggernauts specifically deal tons of damage with little gold put into their builds to start,

As so most melees.

and have built in sustain and defenses so much so that they don't actually have to build defense items

This is BS. Their built in sustain in negligible by itself and requires they build said defenses to multiply them in order for them to be effective.

You just need to learn to accept that some champions are weak early game.

and there are no items that counter them.

I like how you just toss this statement on the side to try and sneak it thinking you could do so without actually needing to elaborate on it.

You gonna explain this at all or just make a flat statement?

WoonStruck1 votes

Juggernauts are just as bad of a concept as Assassins.

Penns1 votes

At least assassins have counterplay beyond "dont let them get near you" with items like item 3071 item 3742 .. in the game tho

WoonStruck2 votes

When assassins aren't considered trash, there's effectively no counterplay beyond "Don't let them get near you". There is only counterbuild...which they can then do to you.

Penns2 votes

There is also "literally just cc them once or exhaust them and.. dead." Doesnt quite work for the 4k hp Darius

WoonStruck1 votes

Exhaust is broken (not something you want to balance anything around) and generally not available.

CC doesn't work on every assassin, is not always reliable, and even avoidable more often than not. "CC them" is a bad argument because its only reliable against very bad players.

Being ranged counters Darius. Its also bad design because if you aren't ranged, you probably lose.

Ok sure but why1 votes

we're in the anti-adc meta right now

Genocide Victim1 votes

Juggernauts, bruisers and tanks are too strong with the first few items. Most of them fall off really hard.

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