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Why hasn't Riot considered changing Yasuo's ultimate armor pen to scale per rank of ult?

Deftsuo··26 votes·2,846 views

It seems following the mid-season update Yasuo's ultimate bonus armor penetration went untouched when other penetration items lost stats and tank/bruisers items lost health, but increased in resistances. I main the champion (feel free to devote for this reason and this reason only), but playing against it, the 50% bonus armor penetration is quite powerful early-mid game when he had crit components for PD/Shiv or PD/Shiv themselves. (either 20% crit with brawlers glove, 40% with zeal, or 60% with PD/Shiv) he is getting the bonus armor pen (which lasts for 15 seconds) on a sizable portion or majority of his auto-attacks or Q's depending on what items he has early-mid game.

In my opinion, it should scale with each rank up of his ultimate, starting at say, 20, then going to 30 at rank two of ultimate, and then 40 at rank three. This would put it in line with other penetration items (while still being better than LW build paths by 5%). If Riot wanted to keep the 50% bonus armor penetration for later in the game, they could do 20-35-50, at each respective rank (or even 30/40/50 as someone from /r/yasuomains suggested). I think this would allow better counter-play for top-lane (since that seems to be the problematic lane) since he wouldn't be able to duel tanks so effectively with only PD/Shiv components or PD/Shiv themselves. Even more so with Zeal and IE being cheaper. I believe this would bring him more inline with the meta and other picks at the moment, since he gained a ton from the mid-season update while losing very little. This is the one thing I'm surprised Riot has left untouched for all these years on Yasuo, and if they move forward with other nerfs, I highly encourage them to consider this change before messing with his Q, W, or E again.

51 Comments

Doctor Jarvis12 votes

Because it already scales with game length. 50% bonus armor pen at level 6 is, like, nothing, but at level 16 is quite a lot.

Deftsuo9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Doctor Jarvis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V5QJht8v,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-05-23T20:04:06.767+0000)

Because it already scales with game length. 50% bonus armor pen at level 6 is, like, nothing, but at level 16 is quite a lot.

It's actually quite a bit at level 6. Bonus armor pen goes through things like runes and masteries as well as items. A tank with armor runes and a chain-vest loses 50% of his armor from Yasuo's ultimate alone on critical strikes. That damage adds up, more so given the fact that it lasts 15 seconds.

AirKingNeo5 votes

And runes and masteries grant barely anything at level 6.

It's about 10-12 armor. That's -6 armor.

6, not 15, not 25, not 60. 6.

Deftsuo2 votes

{quoted}

And runes and masteries grant barely anything at level 6.

It's about 10-12 armor. That's -6 armor.

6, not 15, not 25, not 60. 6.

Consider masteries and early itemization as well.

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

it's still trash removing 20 armor is nothing

beside he still needs to ult to get it, and you can dodge the tornado or dodge E+Q by running toward him

HaIlMonitor1 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

That is still a decent amount of bonus damage.

LankPants2 votes

When a tank has ~80 armour, which would be Tabi+runes removing 20 of that armour is fucking huge.

Here's the math, 80 armour is a 0.55x multiplier, 60 is a 0.625x multiplier, so that means that knocking off 20 armour at this point is 12% increase in damage. That's a huge increase for a champ who already has insane base damage, especially when you consider how secondary of an effect it is.

IronwallJackson3 votes

Insane base damage? On Yasuo. Hah. His ult arpen only works off of crits now, so it's not even like it's a constant effect at level 6. Not only that, but a 12% damage increase is a pretty pitiful damage steroid when compared to... pretty much any other skirmisher.

LankPants3 votes

And if it were an ability primarily designed around amping damage it wouldn't be an AoE suspend.

IronwallJackson1 votes

Yasuo's ult is really kind of odd. From raw damage to overall utility, the variance in its impact is enormous. If you use it to engage on a low-armor target, it's little more than a gap closer and atuo's worth of damage. Used in the middle of a skirmish, it can be aoe damage, aoe cc, a shield, and a chance to dive their back line. And yet it's gated by its conditional usability.

All of that aside though, I think it's fairly good, in terms of helping him to remain a target-agnostic threat. That's one the hallmarks of the skirmisher subclass, after all. His ult is supposed to be better against armored-up enemies.

LankPants3 votes

it's little more than a gap closer and atuo's worth of damage.

It's a lot more than a gapcloser and an AAs worth of damage. It's also a CC. This is kinda like saying Renekton's W is an auto reset an 1.5 AAs of damage, it makes no sense when you actually break down what the ability does.

All of that aside though, I think it's fairly good, in terms of helping him to remain a target-agnostic threat. That's one the hallmarks of the skirmisher subclass, after all. His ult is supposed to be better against armored-up enemies.

I personally have one huge issue with it, it should only give him pen VS targets he actually hits with the ult. The fact that it just gives him a steroid VS everyone is utterly retarded. Honestly, 50% bonus armour pen for 15 seconds against all targets is ALREADY an ultimate, before the fact that it's also an AoE CC.

IronwallJackson1 votes

Engaging 1v1 against a single low-armor target with Yasuo's ult is exactly a gapcloser with AA damage. The CC doesn't matter since you're locked into it as well, its total damage is comparable to like 2 of your crits, and if you already had your shield up, the reset does nothing at all.

And no, 50% bonus arpen on a timer is not an ultimate. 50% bonus arpen is worth approximately ~1357 gp, and it's limited to his crits on top of that. It would make for a pretty pitiful ult if that was all it did.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

yasuo insane base damage

choose one

Deftsuo1 votes

{quoted}

When a tank has ~80 armour, which would be Tabi+runes removing 20 of that armour is fucking huge.

Here's the math, 80 armour is a 0.55x multiplier, 60 is a 0.625x multiplier, so that means that knocking off 20 armour at this point is 12% increase in damage. That's a huge increase for a champ who already has insane base damage, especially when you consider how secondary of an effect it is.

Can't validate the math, but if its accurate this is the point I'm trying to get across. Reducing his bonus armor pen early would nerf his early/mid game and make him more of a late game hyper carry (like he is intended to be).

LankPants1 votes

The math is

100/(100+armour)

To calculate damage multipliers

Then (DM1-DM2)/DM1x100 to find the percentage increase in damage.

It's really simple stuff.

Also a tank with Runes+tabi has 39 bonus armour minimum, so saying a 20 armour reduction is completely fair.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

You don't accound the -12% from tabi. Most of Yasuo's damage is from autos, and that -12% is also unpenetrable. It's pretty significant.

Melledoneus1 votes

At lower amounts of armor 6 armor gives quite a bit of damage reduction. Not to mention you get much more if you buy an armor item against him, then it'll go up to the 20s and 30s in armor pen.

Asayake 5150glow3 votes

Yasuo gets fucked hard enough by armor already when he doesn't hit his R, he doesn't need this...

Deftsuo4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V5QJht8v,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-23T20:04:03.854+0000)

Yasuo gets fucked hard enough by armor already when he doesn't hit his R, he doesn't need this...

I disagree. he has very good mixed damage with his E in lane, and the fact he gets 100% crit from 2 items allows him to do a lot of damage well before tanks have stacked a major amount of armor if he is even with them and or ahead. Also, it's not like he would be losing penetration either; getting 20/25 is still a signficant amount at level 6, and 30/35 is basically a free last whisper at level 11, while level 16 would be 40/50, which is better than LW or on par with what he has now.

Yaśuo Main6 votes

he has very good mixed damage with his E in lane

Is that a joke orrr???

Deftsuo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yaśuo Main,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V5QJht8v,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-23T23:10:03.979+0000)

Is that a joke orrr???

No, its true. Your E throughout the lane phase does quite a bit of damage. More so if you max it against targets who are ranged and maybe build early armor (seekers armguard, for instance).

Yaśuo Main2 votes

Still not getting it. in no way Yasuo has "good" mixed damage. He has an ability power damage ability yeah sure, but it's always less than 1/5 of Yasuo's damage output and not to mention that it takes long to use it again on the same target. The only way he would have "good" mixed damage is if you count all the damage his E did on all targets he used it on. But then again, compare that to the physical damage he did. 1/4 AP damage is really significant mixed damage, atleast to your assumptions. Something like Jax or a Yi with wits end; not some random Yasuo, even with maxed E. Assuming 200 damage Yasuo does on his E, it still would not be that "good". And his E does not do that much damage, especially in laning phase. You can't say "No, its true." and get away with it without proving it.

Deftsuo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yaśuo Main,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V5QJht8v,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-24T01:44:12.320+0000)

Still not getting it. in no way Yasuo has "good" mixed damage. He has an ability power damage ability yeah sure, but it's always less than 1/5 of Yasuo's damage output and not to mention that it takes long to use it again on the same target. The only way he would have "good" mixed damage is if you count all the damage his E did on all targets he used it on. But then again, compare that to the physical damage he did. 1/4 AP damage is really significant mixed damage, atleast to your assumptions. Something like Jax or a Yi with wits end; not some random Yasuo, even with maxed E. Assuming 200 damage Yasuo does on his E, it still would not be that "good". And his E does not do that much damage, especially in laning phase. You can't say "No, its true." and get away with it without proving it.

You also factor out shiv proc damage if one builds that. Also, the E damage adds up given how frequently you can use it to trade. I think its pretty universal to say he has good mixed damage in lane. Is it insane mixed damage? No but it is still a different source of damage against targets who will primarily be stacking armor. Several times I've laned vs Yasuo and his E damage adds up when I'm on a tank building primarily armor early on.

Yaśuo Main1 votes

Also, the E damage adds up given how frequently you can use it to trade.

As I stated, compare that to the physical damage he did.

You also factor out shiv proc damage if one builds that.

What are you, nuts? No one builds shiv without being a newbie. Stop trying.

Deftsuo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yaśuo Main,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V5QJht8v,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-24T20:20:04.263+0000)

As I stated, compare that to the physical damage he did.

What are you, nuts? No one builds shiv without being a newbie. Stop trying.

You're missing the point. I'm not comparing damage, my argument is that he has a respectable amount of mixed damage in the lane. Thats not undermining his physical damage or saying its superior. New Shiv is also pretty strong after its changes, so its not as bad as it used to be.

Yaśuo Main1 votes

amount of mixed damage in the lane.

fucking stop it, he does not have a significant amount of AP damage to have respectable mixed damage. And shiv is still a newbie choice, whether you like it or not.

Deftsuo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yaśuo Main,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V5QJht8v,comment-id=000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-24T20:27:53.069+0000)

fucking stop it, he does not have a significant amount of AP damage to have respectable mixed damage. And shiv is still a newbie choice, whether you like it or not.

His E also scales of bonus AD now (following prior nerfs to E damage), and shiv isn't a newbie choice in my opinion, its good in some circumstances, not most, but some. Its fine if you disagree with me, kinda an opinion-based topic anyway.

Yaśuo Main1 votes

The only circumstance it's good in is when you are fed way too early on FYI. And his low AD makes the bonus AD scaling nearly insignificant.

Do you know what Yasuo is from 2 years ago and now? You aren't in your right mind if you think nerfing Yasuo is required/ you think this nerf even has a point. The only thing I see it doing is nerfing his midgame spike and early game level 6 and late game. With no compensation either. And another thing, Riot is most likely not gonna nerf Yasuo.

This is because his winrate mid is overall 49% (averaged from 5 sources) and his top lane is only better at 52% because of his ult. If you nerf his ult like THAT, while not only does it touch nothing of what the majority of the boards want (his oppressiveness and "cancerous" laning phase) it will also bump down his winrate across all lanes to below 50% at least. This creating a domino effect (unneeded nerf causes yasuo to lose winrate and boards will not stop complaining, any yasuo buff threads will get hate immediately) that will ultimately decrease the likelihood for Yasuo to get buffed (unless directly mentioned by riot, otherwise the boards will not want yasuo buffed).

What this thread will do is suggest a nerf that will fuck up Yasuo for no reason at all, with no benefits from either side.

kinda an opinion-based topic anyway.

What do you think will happen if an opinion based thread got taken seriously? You know those "gut yasuo" and "delete lee sin" are all opinion based? This is virtually the same thing, just sophisticated. The fucking entropy would be insane. You've dove to the point where you think a Yasuo nerf is inevitable so you suggest a nerf that is probably the worst kind of nerf with it only being not that bad number wise? The fuck?

You know who Yassuo is right? Watch all his video's and tell me, has he ever built Statikk Shiv other than for laughs?

Jbels1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cant Hold Me Now,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V5QJht8v,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-23T20:04:03.854+0000)

Yasuo gets fucked hard enough by armor already when he doesn't hit his R, he doesn't need this...

lol what?

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

lol what?

Yeah, he has no armor pen or true damage anywhere else in his kit...

I'm talking early game, ofc.

Joseraph1 votes

Yas is a late game champ, if it scales to 50%, he won't feel it.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Yas is a late game champ, if it scales to 50%, he won't feel it.

If you'd ever tried playing Yasuo into a tank, you wouldn't be saying that.

Well, he wouldn't feel it, because even right now he gets wrecked even if he does hit his R.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

It already does, in an indirect way. Since it's bonus armor pen, it will naturally become more and more effective as the game goes on as champions get more and more bonus armor. At lvl 6, most champs will have 40 bonus armor at most, meaning he penetrates 20. At lvl 18, many tanks can have over 200 bonus armor, making Yasuo's ult penetrate 100 or more.

Deftsuo1 votes

{quoted}

It already does, in an indirect way. Since it's bonus armor pen, it will naturally become more and more effective as the game goes on as champions get more and more bonus armor. At lvl 6, most champs will have 40 bonus armor at most, meaning he penetrates 20. At lvl 18, many tanks can have over 200 bonus armor, making Yasuo's ult penetrate 100 or more.

Solid point. It'd be interesting to have a graph or some visual representation of its effectiveness as the game progresses. Compare and contrast its effectiveness against different times in the game and see if it is truly a balanced, scaling stat or if its stronger in one part of the game than in comparison to another.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

Oh it's definitely far more useful late game. Cutting a tanks armor from 350 to 225 is a far bigger difference than cutting a tanks armor from 80 to 60. Armor rushing still counters Yasuo, but that armor eventually becomes less and less useful as not only does he penetrate more of it, but his actual damage is far higher as well thanks to IE. Most tanks that rush Sunfire or Randuins can 1v1 Yasuo with ease when both have 1 item. Those champs don't have a prayer against Yasuo 1v1 at 4 or more items.

Deftsuo1 votes

{quoted}

Oh it's definitely far more useful late game. Cutting a tanks armor from 350 to 225 is a far bigger difference than cutting a tanks armor from 80 to 60. Armor rushing still counters Yasuo, but that armor eventually becomes less and less useful as not only does he penetrate more of it, but his actual damage is far higher as well thanks to IE. Most tanks that rush Sunfire or Randuins can 1v1 Yasuo with ease when both have 1 item. Those champs don't have a prayer against Yasuo 1v1 at 4 or more items.

Yeah logically it would be stronger the later the game goes, which is fine. My question revolves around whether the 50% bonus pen early-mid game is balanced or not. On one end, it gets more effective as the game goes, so therefor its already arguably balanced since it ramps up as the game progresses. On the other end, 50% bonus pen 6-15 min into the game on 2/5-1/2 of your auto's and Q's for 15 seconds might be a tad strong, I'd have to see numbers and statistics to back this statement up, but its worth considering none the less.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

50% early on in the game is hardly noticable, even against tanks that rush armor. Against anyone else, it does basically nothing. There's a reason Yasuo is considered to have one of the weakest ult powerspikes for a melee, damage oriented champion.

Deftsuo1 votes

{quoted}

50% early on in the game is hardly noticable, even against tanks that rush armor. Against anyone else, it does basically nothing. There's a reason Yasuo is considered to have one of the weakest ult powerspikes for a melee, damage oriented champion.

I disagree. His level 6 powerspike is super good if you know what you're doing. I've gotten so many kills at level 6 from properly managing the wave and experience advantage while poking down pre-6 to look for an all in when I have ult.

LeagueOfJhin1 votes

I main Yasuo no bias I agree with this

Darth West1 votes

What does it even matter man?

He will be perma banned anyways with this community..

Good idea but people will still perm ban him..

Irelia Bot1 votes

so something like 25/35/45%?

Deftsuo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Irelia Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V5QJht8v,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-05-24T04:35:46.702+0000)

so something like 25/35/45%?

Possibly Yeah, or something like 30/40/50 as someone from /r/yasuomains suggested.

Troll for Trump1 votes

Because it only works on crits, which are costly in terms of gold. At lvl 6, he'll have crit, but not that much

The Whamboozler1 votes

Hush.... Yasuo is the reigning king of the champs riddled with free stats. Riot wants it this way, so that people can look at his base stats and say "Oh man, he's balanced... look how weak he is!" Oh wait lol, free health, free crit, free AS, free armor pen, no mana, no cooldowns.

Leaf on Bush1 votes

If your goal is to adjust him according to the item changes, the percentage should be lowered by the same amount on all 3 ability levels. There is absolutely no need to add extra "scaling", since it's percentage armor penetration, which already scales with your enemies armor and also with how often you critical strike yourself.

Your suggestion goes far beyond compensation.

Deftsuo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cancer Cavalier ,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=V5QJht8v,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2017-05-24T10:18:11.461+0000)

If your goal is to adjust him according to the item changes, the percentage should be lowered by the same amount on all 3 ability levels. There is absolutely no need to add extra "scaling", since it's percentage armor penetration, which already scales with your enemies armor and also with how often you critical strike yourself.

Your suggestion goes far beyond compensation.

Wouldn't say its primarily due to item changes, but with the changes it makes this conversation more relevant. I don't think nerfing it outright is the solution, given how much armor can now be stacked and how the meta currently is. Scaling solves his early dominance problem (potentially lowering kill pressure at 6) against top-lane tank match-ups in which he seems to be doing overly well in. I don't have the math to support my claims, but reducing bonus armor pen early would allow tanks building items like tabi and early armor to stand a chance at fighting him in an all-in circumstance. I'd like to see how much armor at level 6 a tank loses to Yasuo's bonus armor pen per critical strike over the duration of the 15 seconds of bonus armor pen. Late game 50% seems healthy, my concern is more revolved around early-mid, since that seems to be where people and Riot have issues with him dominating since he is supposed to be a late game hyper carry.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

It doesn't do anything. It's a pointless nerf. Nerf E's rank 1 cd is much better.

squingo441 votes

Yes but that makes him feel bad to play, which is a kind of nerf Riot wants to avoid.

GULAG 4 U1 votes

It fixes the oppressive level 2. You can make it scale back to normal afterwards.

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