Why does riot rework champs if they are going to make them feel entirely different to play

Plat Ap Malphite··37 votes·15,830 views

I am a person who played all of the old forgotten champs, Yorick, Urgot, Aatrox that sort of thing. Recently Riots reworks have felt like they removed the character entirely and replace them with different character. Yorick and Warwick reworks were fantastic. For example, what made Yorick fun to play was the ghouls. The fact that Riot kept the ghouls but added counterplay shows that they understood what made Yorick, Yorick. Since Galio it feels like Rito just said "fuck it no one plays them, lets just not care." I don't think incorperating vague similarities are the same as keeping aspects of the champ in tact. Galio's mr scaling is not the same as getting ap for mr. Urgot having targeting is basically non existent. This post is focusing on how they play and not anything on lcs. The most important thing to a game is the fun to the playerbase, I am discussing this from that perspective.

Galio was a mage who scaled with MR. His Q was a damage spell and his e was too. His ultimate was an amazing and fun nunulike ult with a taunt. They removed his ult and put it on his resistance but it is not the same. They removed the flat ap for mr and replaced it something barely similar. Galio is not the same feel and plays entirely differently. Even going ap mid is not the same. I feel as annoyed as I do with urgot even though I dont have much to say.

Urgot is worse. Urgot has the problem is that he was a ad caster while also being a fighter. The main fun aspect of him was his ad caster. Spamming his q like a mage was fun and what made him interesting to me. His ult was funny and interesting but i understand why it doesnt work for him. There are no ad ability focus characters that is played like a mage. His old targeting system feels nothing like his new targeting system, in fact his new system doesnt even feel like targeting. Since his old q was his main damage tool and was blocked by minions, the targeting the e provided made you bypass the minions and gave it extra range. It felt like a targeting system. Since his w now is an auto attack base spell and he is wants to be on top of them, it feels like he is just auto attacking and not targeting. The lack of range and the fact that there is not visible change in the spells pre and post target, makes it feel like the targeting was just removed. They just made him a generic juggernaut that focuses on autos, which to me old urgot focused on least.

Eve I can not comment on because i never played old ev that much. The spikes feel similar enough and the passive now has counterplay early game. This one feels right.

Swain is not as horrible as urgot but it just doesn't feel right. Old Swain focused on using his free df passive to get the most out of his q. His focus on Lightning is not the same as his focus on his tether. His cc turned from an aoe root to a weird passthrough single root. The free mana is sad for me to see gone. The only thing that feels the same is his ult. It is fun but it is similar enough that I am not as annoyed.

I disliked old irelia for being one of the most annoying champs to fight so I never picked her up.

Aatrox is on the same level as Urgot when it comes to removing a champ and replacing them with someone new. Aatrox was a fun and weird champ with a unique skillshot, a three hit passive that shifts its purpose on a triggered ability and a cool dash/knockup. The attackrange increase on his ult was extremely interesting. His heal was cool because it only activated after three hits while also risking damage. His q being a decreasing hitbox was fun and the only spell like it. His ult only getting the revive when his bloodwell was full was an interesting way to balance a free ga. His e dash was more interesting. It felt like it had some weight to it and some dedication, the knock up on the end made it feel rewarding to go in. His rework changed everything from his playstyle to how his attributes worked. His new playstyle is focused on stacking his q instead of autoing. His Heal is now just a free deaths dance with no interesting gimmick to make it interesting. His knockup is now on his q and not tied to his cool dash. His dash is now just a little kalista dash. Having a repeating aoe spell is not as interesting. It feels entirely different to play.

Kayle feels the same late game but weird early.

Morde is not out yet but the videos show that he is not the same at all. His q is not a powerful feeling three hit auto. generic spell. His shield managing is not longer the mechanic but just a normal shield. his Ghost, the most unique part of his kit is gone. I love his new ult is amazing. I loved old poppy ult and sending people to the shadowrealm is rad as hell but why did they decide to replace it? I will probably love new morde but it is not the same.

Reworks that feel the same are possible. Yorick and Warwick are fantastic reworks that kept the most important aspects of the character in tact. The focus on making a new character instead of a true rework is a blemish on a great game like this. I am not advocating for Unworks only, a new 3rd rework for most of these champs can be made to align them with how the old ones played. I tried to not sound whinny here but I am working with emotions on this.

Edit: from what yall are saying about morde I can see I was wrong. The revert nature of it is honorable of riot. I am glad they did it now.

148 Comments

The Ecdysiast54 votes

Simple answer: because they are often so outdated that the way they play doesn't fit in the game. That, or they have a kit that can't be balanced around its core mechanic.

I've said this to other people on other threads, but reworks are not for the people who like the outdated/bug-riddled/unbalanceable champions they're based on.

And this Mord is far more akin to the REAL Mordekaiser, not this sham that you newer players have always known.

NemeBro8 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVdvGyjl,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-02T05:06:28.210+0000)

Simple answer: because they are often so outdated that the way they play doesn't fit in the game. That, or they have a kit that can't be balanced around its core mechanic.

I've said this to other people on other threads, but reworks are not for the people who like the outdated/bug-riddled/unbalanceable champions they're based on.

And this Mord is far more akin to the REAL Mordekaiser, not this sham that you newer players have always known.

Then who are they for?

The vast majority of the playerbase couldn't give a flying shit about whether or not any given champion is reworked. Do you think I give a shit that Volibear and Fiddlesticks are getting reworked? No, the only people who do are Voli and Fiddle players, be they dedicated OTPs or people who play them every now and then.

And no, that shit will not fly. Champions are reworked for a reason, and as someone who played old!Poppy her old passive and ult at bare minimum needed to either go or be heavily retooled. What they didn't need to do is take Poppy, one of the few melee hypercarries in the game, and turn her into a generic lane bully CC tank. Which is what they did. And now Mordekaiser is getting a healthier variation on her old ultimate which she could have gotten. Yippee.

The Ecdysiast12 votes

They're for people who like the general theme of the champion but not their outdated/bug-riddled/unbalanceable kit. And every other player who doesn't look at the champion because every part of the champion in its current state is unappealing to them.

You may not care about Voli and Fiddle getting reworked, but it's silly to say only current players care... especially this time, when there was a vote to prove other people do, too. If they think like me, they wanna see the reworks because they will make the characters more appealing to current non-players.

Old Poppy was an auto-attacking champion who didn't actually have the scaling or mobility to be a hypercarry. She was essentially a worse Tryndamere. The only thing different about her ult is that if the enemies had a mage support, you could die to them, unlike Tryndamere. She was as generic as generic gets, and wasn't even good at it.

The one thing that was unique to Poppy, Heroic Charge, they kept. And the new kit they gave her is fantastic. You wanna rag on her for being generic despite the facts that she has the only dash interrupt in the game, one of only two ranged attacks that act entirely like a melee attack, and the COOLEST ultimate in the game? Nice try. I played old Poppy too, but the new one is so much better I can't even begin to miss her old, ugly version.


I can level with you on them adding in mechanics that are similar to existing ones, but better, though. But Mord's ult is definitely not akin to Poppy's old one. Hers was most often used on a person she didn't plan on going after, and killing their ally while invincible. Plus, at the time of Poppy's rework they didn't have the means to make an ult like Mord's. If you watched the Sylas video, they actually learned quite a lot about interactions while coding him that they never knew before. And I'm sure that helped with programming Mord's ultimate.

Rather than old Poppy, though, it's more like his new ult is the apex of Camille's and Xin's. But it wouldn't very well fit thematically for either of them. For actually taking another player to another plain of existence, it'd have to be a ghost, demon, or cosmic character.

NemeBro4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVdvGyjl,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-02T06:13:31.295+0000)

They're for people who like the general theme of the champion but not their outdated/bug-riddled/unbalanceable kit. And every other player who doesn't look at the champion because every part of the champion in its current state is unappealing to them.

You may not care about Voli and Fiddle getting reworked, but it's silly to say only current players care... especially this time, when there was a vote to prove other people do, too. If they think like me, they wanna see the reworks because they will make the characters more appealing to current non-players.

Do you think it's a coincidence that the two champions that won, Fiddle and Voli, are the ones with the highest play rates?

Do you have anything backing your assertion that a substantial amount of the votes come from people who don't play them?

Old Poppy was an auto-attacking champion who didn't actually have the scaling or mobility to be a hypercarry. She was essentially a worse Tryndamere. The only thing different about her ult is that if the enemies had a mage support, you could die to them, unlike Tryndamere. She was as generic as generic gets, and wasn't even good at it.

She was the hardest-scaling melee carry with the game with better sticking power than Tryndamere who was much harder to peel and, frankly, was much tankier even without her ult due to her passive, which was actually the most broken part of her kit.

But who cares? What did you say that disproves anything I said?

The one thing that was unique to Poppy, Heroic Charge, they kept. And the new kit they gave her is fantastic. You wanna rag on her for being generic despite the facts that she has the only dash interrupt in the game, one of only two ranged attacks that act entirely like a melee attack, and the COOLEST ultimate in the game? Nice try. I played old Poppy too, but the new one is so much better I can't even begin to miss her old, ugly version.


No, I rag on her because she is just another in a long line of CC tanks when she used to be a carry. If you like new Poppy that's fine, but if you think she should have been created you're wrong my man.

Old Poppy was quite possibly the most cancer champion in the game and needed a rework, but does that mean she needed to have her entire role changed? Something as fundamental as her basic function, going from carry to tank?

You people can't think with any nuance, you read my posts and think I'm saying old Poppy was healthier or even more fun than new Poppy or some shit, when what I'm actually saying is that regardless of old kit health and fun versus new kit health and fun, the old Poppy had the BASIC IDENTITY of a late game carry, and new Poppy's BASIC IDENTITY is that of a lane bully tank, and this is wrong.

I can level with you on them adding in mechanics that are similar to existing ones, but better, though. But Mord's ult is definitely not akin to Poppy's old one. Hers was most often used on a person she didn't plan on going after, and killing their ally while invincible.

What a monumentally poorly-thought out statement.

Old Poppy's ult was indeed not used on her target. Can you figure out why that is?

It's because her ult was not being used like it was intended. Wow. That was hard to figure out, huh? Do you think that the extra damage she did to her ult target was there for fun?

Hence why new Mordekaiser's is HEALTHIER, because it singles out one person for him to fuck up and makes it so people can't stop him, but doesn't let him kill the entire enemy team by making him immune to everyone else.

Plus, at the time of Poppy's rework they didn't have the means to make an ult like Mord's. If you watched the Sylas video, they actually learned quite a lot about interactions while coding him that they never knew before. And I'm sure that helped with programming Mord's ultimate.

You're probably right, which actually just says poorly of Riot.

The Ecdysiast6 votes

Back at you. If they're so popular already, that puts a hole in your claim that all the votes come from people who already like them. And severely hurts your point that reworks screw people who like the champions. If it were true, people would know not to vote for champs they like for reworks.

No, she wasn't. Not sure what game you were playing, but she was none of those things. And you just completely ignored where I pointed out everything that made the old Poppy generic as well as everything that makes the new Poppy unique. You're just ignoring the facts.

Plus, to claim people weren't using it as intended when, if that was their intention, they could have made it so she can only damage that enemy, is stretching way too far. They allowed it because that was one of the intended purposes. Mordekaiser's ultimate lacks that purpose.

I get that you don't like reworks. That you like outdated, more generic kits. But to claim that that's not what they are is to ignore reality.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Poppy was indeed the hardest scaling melee carry in the game before her rework her late game q did 80% of squishies heath with no spell blade

The Ecdysiast3 votes

400 damage at level 18 against a level 18 target is 80% of their health?

No, she wasn't. You're just remembering the seldom games when one of your allies was bad enough to give her 10 kills in the first twenty minutes.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Wow shit champions only have base damage. I wish i knew that maybe riot can finally balance their game then.item 3040 item 3042item 3146 would pop fools

The Ecdysiast3 votes

The base damage was 100. I included the health and her max AD. What I didn't include was items, because you were making the false claim that it could 80% without spellblade, which it couldn't.

LordGeovanni1 votes

How is without spellblade = no items ever even the most broken champions in the game cant do that

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Because even with 400 AD, that's only 700 damage to a level 18 target. Not even half the HP of the average squishy.

Like I said, you're mistaking memories of a champ being fed for the norm.

LordGeovanni1 votes

[deleted]

The Ecdysiast1 votes

No, not "also." If you had any AP at all, even a hybrid build, you didn't have 400 AD.

LordGeovanni1 votes

thats the point of stacking item 3042 and item 3040 to get both of their passives where you get extra ad and ap from mana there is also 2% of max mana on hit as damage

LordGeovanni1 votes

There is the 60% ap ratio which is about 140 damage from a 240 ap and the damage from ad is 800 at 400 ad because of a 100% ap ratio there is also 100 base damage and an 8% of enemies max hp

The Ecdysiast1 votes

First of all, Poppy never built both Tear items.

Second, I used an outrageous number like 400 AD, which was only possible building solely top AD items, to shove the numbers further in your favor. In reality the number couldn't be that high, and the base damage from the auto wouldn't be anywhere near that if you're building hybrid.

So I stuck with just the AD and used an unreasonably high number to avoid having to do all the math involved in actually comparing the damage to the enemy's defense and including the damage from the auto-attack, since it gives a good estimate anyway.

Needless to say, your statement about her having been one of the top hypercarries is still incorrect. She never was. What you're doing is like trying to say since Nasus has the capability of having more damage than anyone else in the game, he's a top hypercarry despite the fact his pick rate and performance at higher levels of play are very low.

LordGeovanni1 votes

THEN WHY YOU REPLYING TO MY THREAD ABOUT POPPY BUILDING 2 TEAR ITEMS IF YOU JUST GONNA IGNORE IT. Im not gonna say what other people built just what i built. you also seem to be ignoring masteries that added Damage to the game and Runes that people could Take things like item 3072 having 100 ad

The Ecdysiast1 votes

So, yeah, like the other person said, you're just remembering being level 20.

Ti am0 curean1 votes

Except that would never happen unless you'd go full crit, old Poppy hyperrcarrying was mostly pub stomping in lvl 20 or bronze/silver. Everyone past that will get a banshees and there ya go, no more ults on weak people, and good luck targeting the adc or the burst midlaner while you have less than 2k hp.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Yeah. People forgetting that when Poppy was old Poppy, they were level 20.

NemeBro1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVdvGyjl,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-02T10:09:27.055+0000)

Back at you. If they're so popular already, that puts a hole in your claim that all the votes come from people who already like them.

How does me pointing out that the champions picked got the most votes due to being more popular take away from the claim that the votes came from people who like them?

Are you serious? Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

They are relatively popular, hence why they got picked, since those people playing them obviously tend to like the champions.

And severely hurts your point that reworks screw people who like the champions. If it were true, people would know not to vote for champs they like for reworks.

No it doesn't, not when:

A. Those people could simply be stupid and not know what they're doing by voting.

B. Not every rework is bad in the way I've said, pay attention to this point that you clumsily missed because it will be coming back later and make a real big fool of you.

No, she wasn't. Not sure what game you were playing, but she was none of those things. And you just completely ignored where I pointed out everything that made the old Poppy generic as well as everything that makes the new Poppy unique. You're just ignoring the facts.

Nope, you're just ignorant if you believe old Poppy was not a hard-scaling carry.

Let's go with one example of something I said that is laughably and blatantly true:

That Poppy is tankier than Tryndamere without ults. Tryndamere has how many tank steroids without his ultimate? Poppy had how many now? Oh that's right, two.

Plus, to claim people weren't using it as intended when, if that was their intention, they could have made it so she can only damage that enemy, is stretching way too far. They allowed it because that was one of the intended purposes. Mordekaiser's ultimate lacks that purpose.

"ACTIVE: Poppy focuses the target enemy champion for the next few seconds, dealing them increased damage and becoming immune to all effects not originating from her target for the duration."

Nah, it was intended as a dueling tool. You're wrong bud.

I get that you don't like reworks.

Cite where I stated I dislike all reworks. =)

That you like outdated, more generic kits.

Cite where I stated this as well.

But to claim that that's not what they are is to ignore reality.

Cite where I claimed that as well. =)

That's what I mean when I say you can't think with any nuance. I play the Irelia rework. I play the Fiora rework. I play the Yorick rework. I play the Warwick rework.

What do all of these reworks have in common? They didn't change the champion's role completely. Weird, right?

The Ecdysiast2 votes
  1. This wasn't a popularity contest. It was a rework contest. People who want to see the characters changed are the ones who voted for them.

  2. "Everyone must be stupid," is a terrible argument. They knew what kind of contest it was. That'd be like trying to say demon Tristana only won because people thought they were voting out a skin.

  3. You didn't say anything about Poppy being tanky. So, in turn, I never said she wasn't. But she was still weaker and as a result saw very little play. You forget that at higher levels of play it's about who's strong, not who's fun.

  4. Like I said, it had two intended uses. If it was a dueling tool only, they would've added that she can only damage that champion. (Which is what Mordekaiser's new ult does)

  5. Cite where I wrote "all." =)

  6. In your claim that new Poppy is generic compared to old Poppy, despite the exact opposite being the case.

I already explained to you why there are reworks that don't change a champion's core and why there are ones that do. If you refuse to admit that that's true, I can't help you.

Lucky for the rest of us, it isn't up to the opinion of people who refuse to understand that.

dandyd00d1 votes

Rather than old Poppy, though, it's more like his new ult is the apex of Camille's and Xin's.

Actually its what they wanted Fiora's original ult to be, and i believe camille's ult is based off Fiora's

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Like I said, they probably couldn't get that to work. And it certainly would've been too strong on the kind of champion Fiora is/was. There aren't all that many champions who can take on Fiora in a forced 1v1.

But there are a lot of champions who will be able to take on Mord, including Fiora.

Flashes1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVdvGyjl,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-02T05:06:28.210+0000)

Simple answer: because they are often so outdated that the way they play doesn't fit in the game. That, or they have a kit that can't be balanced around its core mechanic.

I've said this to other people on other threads, but reworks are not for the people who like the outdated/bug-riddled/unbalanceable champions they're based on.

And this Mord is far more akin to the REAL Mordekaiser, not this sham that you newer players have always known.

While the old champions were outdated, new champions are beginning to have a problem where they are TOO modern to the point where their kits have been adjusted to over the top levels. Irelia, Akali, and Aatrox are the 3 largest offenders of this, and while Irelia has been for the large part toned down to an adjustable level, Aatrox and especially Akali have been facing huge issues in discrepancies between skill levels. Akali's kit has so much in it that she just isn't weaker or stronger at any point in the game, making Riot have to nerf her entire presence. Then comes her actual mechanics, which also made Riot nerf her so that she wasn't overbearing in pro play.

Newer champions that are examples of this include that whole Zoe to Sylas saga. Neeko and Yuumi are perfectly fine examples of champions that have modern kits, but are generally fun to play and don't require extremely high levels of skill. Sylas and Zoe are perfect examples of what not to do.

SociopathFriend1 votes

Zoe only does like one new thing though?

LordGeovanni1 votes

redirecting skill shot. Skill shot extra range through walls Skill shot lingers on battle field after missing waiting for people walk into it. blink to place and back to spot steals summoner spells with massive damage after use.

I wouldnt call neeko okay massive damage tells you its less if you can get out of the q but the q itself is a massive slow. Also they nerfed the need to weave her E through minions. with supremely large saftey shield on her ult that is massive in its range and stuns for a decent while after it procs

The Ecdysiast1 votes

In order: Vel'koz did it first. Bard did it first. Karma did it first. Zed and LeBlanc did it first.

So, yeah, only one new thing.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Vel koz Q isnt a redirect its a second proc that has a fixed angle E doesnt get extra range through walls it only works on walls Karma you got that

Zed and leblanc are optional secondaries while Zoe's doesnt matter if she wants to or not.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

That actually makes it better than Zoe's, since it does the same damage even if you hit with the angle. For her, though, if you redirect it from anywhere other than behind you, it deals far less damage. Bard's E gets more range when the walls are bigger.

And, again, the fact Zed and LB have a choice means their versions are stronger.

I was only saying that the mechanics existed, not that her abilities are identical.

LordGeovanni1 votes

we arent talking about damage we are talking about the kit. Bard's E doesnt work not going through walls so your comparison is versus something non existent

Which is why i didnt say chose to go back to previous spot.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

The mechanic is that it goes through walls, and is extended through longer walls. Just because it isn't a damaging ability doesn't mean it isn't the same mechanic. Just because the ability to throw it at something other than a wall is on Zoe's, doesn't mean combining the two is a new mechanic.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Skill shot extra range through walls.

what are you getting extra range versus??????

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Neeko and Yuumi are just as loaded as Zoe or Sylas.

You're just being biased.

Flashes1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVdvGyjl,comment-id=000100020001,timestamp=2019-06-02T20:41:01.476+0000)

Neeko and Yuumi are just as loaded as Zoe or Sylas.

You're just being biased.

No, I'm really not.

Neeko has neither excessive survivability nor excessive range. Her E is difficult to land if your opponent knows what Neeko's kit is, and her ultimate is also just as hard to land until a hectic fight lategame.

Her Passive is near worthless in most situations aside from baiting. Her W passive is her real passive, and the active on that one is much less useful now that the instant skillshot absorber bug was patched.

Sylas has 1 directional dash and 2 dashes to a target, while his E and W have shielding or healing. The problem with Sylas was that he was balanced to have a very functional kit without his ultimate, so that now when he DOES have good matchups, it's disgustingly overpowered.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Neeko has a shield on an ability that deals massive AoE damage and roots. That is, she has an additional mechanic dropped onto the kind of ability other champions have. As well as a third-hit auto attack passive while she already has caster-damage abilities. Which would be why going on-hit was so powerful for so long.

I didn't say she was overloaded in the same way, but it's false to say she doesn't have just as many mechanics slapped on.

Flashes1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVdvGyjl,comment-id=00010002000100000000,timestamp=2019-06-03T21:16:18.653+0000)

Neeko has a shield on an ability that deals massive AoE damage and roots. That is, she has an additional mechanic dropped onto the kind of ability other champions have. As well as a third-hit auto attack passive while she already has caster-damage abilities. Which would be why going on-hit was so powerful for so long.

I didn't say she was overloaded in the same way, but it's false to say she doesn't have just as many mechanics slapped on.

Her shield is actually required for a squishy mage like her. Honestly I have no idea why they even bothered to make that her ultimate. A squishy mage that has 0.5 second stealth should not be running into the middle, so Riot decided to add a shield on and call it a day.

It's not overloaded, it's just necessary. Her Slow is also necessary, I'm guessing after playtesting they realized her ult was dogshit to anyone who can look at a screen.

As for her W passive for every 3rd hit, at first I disliked its movement speed it granted, but I realized that that's where Riot decided to put her "actual" passive. Not to mention that if they removed it they would have to add something else to her W like faster cd's, which is a bad choice thanks to the minimal stealth they gave.

Neeko got the short end of the stick because most of the mechanics she has are bandaids to make up for the utter lacking of a useful ultimate.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Other mages who need to get in close are forced to buy HP items. Her shield makes it so she can forego that for more damage.

It is overloaded. Whether or not you call it necessary is besides the point. For a champion who can be countered by not giving him an ultimate, a kit that works well when the enemy team looks like: Udyr Illaoi Diana Xayah Zyra is also necessary.

With exactly the same reasoning, the added mechanics Sylas has are to make up for lacking a useful ultimate if the enemy gets to pick after him.

Flashes1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=UVdvGyjl,comment-id=0001000200010000000000000000,timestamp=2019-06-04T02:28:31.902+0000)

Other mages who need to get in close are forced to buy HP items. Her shield makes it so she can forego that for more damage.

It is overloaded. Whether or not you call it necessary is besides the point. For a champion who can be countered by not giving him an ultimate, a kit that works well when the enemy team looks like: Udyr Illaoi Diana Xayah Zyra is also necessary.

With exactly the same reasoning, the added mechanics Sylas has are to make up for lacking a useful ultimate if the enemy gets to pick after him.

I guess my frustration stems from how they are treated. With Neeko, Riot decided to stockpile their resources on slapping bandaids onto her ultimate in order to make sure she could land it at least once a game, but honestly it ended up doing nearly nothing, while every single bit of Sylas's kit improves his preformance significantly.

Blue Moon Wolf2 votes

I do hope they bring back his Current Ult one day. Maybe for a dark support champ who doesn't so much "support" as "has others do the fighting for them".

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Probably a hard nope on that one. Pets are buggy enough. Pets that are champions are even worse.

Seeing as they removed it from Yorick already and now have removed it from Mordekaiser as well, it's safe to say they've realized that's not the kind of ability that fits into this game.

Blue Moon Wolf1 votes

They said that they kept it in for months and only removed it cause they couldn't make it feel good in his new kit.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

That doesn't exactly mean they got it working, though.

And in general, having a "copy" of an enemy that can't cast spells isn't a fun mechanic to work with anyway.

Unless, like season 2-4 Mord, you can burst the fed ADC and they happen to be one that works with only autos. Buuut, that's not gonna work. 'Cause a champ that can burst AND have a good ghost is gonna be overpowered.

AirKingNeo1 votes

That, or they have a kit that can't be balanced around its core mechanic.

Well, it's more like people say they can't be balanced, even if they currently are or have been before.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Well, not exactly. "Balanced" does not mean underpowered. And that's usually how kits that have an unhealthy core mechanic are left until that mechanic is removed. Because what makes it unhealthy is the fact that any kind of buff to make it useful just makes it full-blown overpowered.

And you need to take into account the fact that if a kit was balanced "before", that was a completely different game state. Stealth was a pretty healthy mechanic, and champions with it didn't too often need to have their damage gutted... back when Pink Wards existed. Now, though, the ability to be untargetable even when under the effects of Sweeper is strong enough that many of the champions with stealth have needed to be weakened.

It's not that people say something can't be balanced. It's that Riot knows it, after testing it for a long time. The people saying so are just the ones who also figured it out.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Well, not exactly. "Balanced" does not mean underpowered.

I said balanced. I meant balanced, not underpowered. That means statistically fair.

And yes, there are champions who have been balanced who are reworked because people meme them by saying "they can't be balanced". Aatrox is an example of that. There were plenty of times Aatrox was balanced though.

Plus what Riot says is balanced is very skewed and biased. Riot defends Zoe's W which is RNG, which is never balanced by design.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

You're ignoring all the other factors that go into balance besides win rate. Being at the very bottom in pick rate and having a 49% win rate is not balanced.

Aatrox is the worst example you could've used, because he's the prime example for a core mechanic that they couldn't balance. His W was for most of his existence left underpowered because buffing it even a little so that he might have some actual advantage to picking him over better AA fighters made him completely overpowered. That's exactly what we saw right before his rework, when the buffs to his W and the introduction of conqueror made him a top pick.

You said balanced, but you're referring to times when the champions are left underpowered because their mechanic, when buffed, gives them too much power. The examples you're trying to use don't fit the claim you're trying to make, so I adjusted it to what they're actually examples of.

You can fool yourself into thinking Riot makes decisions that take months of work based on memes, but that's not how it works.

Z3Sleeper17 votes

I think you used Yorick as a point of praise of preserving his old kit when in reality his old kit is nowhere present in his new one.

I like both Yoricks and definitely prefer the new one, but they are not alike whatsoever.

Similarities: They summon things. That's it. (and they both have an AA enhance but who doesn't? They don't even function the same)

I'd even say Heimerdinger or Malzahar are more/equally similar gameplay-wise to old Yorick as new Yorick is.

The reason he was so well received though? Who played Yorick? That's why.


We lost the nutty MS on Q, the relentless ghoul chasing regardless of landing anything lol, E perma-harass with E healing you as a ranged click target nuke, W being an on-demand AoE slow that stayed active til it died, R acting like a mix of Morde clone and that temporary GA item they put on ARAM, also he had a real passive.

But the new kit is 100% healthier and requires more brain power than spam E off cooldown. So we won't sit here and whine like a few select old Galio players (you know who I mean) that our pick doesn't directly completely hard counter an entire subset of champions anymore and we can no longer flash R for free aces.

Snowbrand1 votes

{quoted}

I think you used Yorick as a point of praise of preserving his old kit when in reality his old kit is nowhere present in his new one.

I like both Yorick and definitely prefer the new one, but they are not alike whatsoever.

Similarities: They summon things. That's it.

I'd even say Heimerdinger or Malzahar are more or equally similar gameplay-wise to old Yorick as new Yorick is.

The reason he was so well received though? Who played Yorick? That's why.


We lost the nutty MS on Q, the relentless ghoul chasing regardless of landing anything lol, E perma-harass with E healing you as a ranged click target click, W being an on-demand AoE slow that stayed active til it died, R acting like a mix of Morde clone and that temporary GA item they put on ARAM, a real passive.

But the new kit is 100% healthier and requires more brain power than spam E off cooldown. So we won't sit here and whine like a few select old Galio players (you know who I mean) that our pick doesn't directly completely hard counter an entire subset of champions anymore and we can no longer flash R for free aces.

It was rather "who loved to play old Yorick?"

Sewer Side5 votes

But the new kit is 100% healthier and requires more brain power than spam E off cooldown. So we won't sit here and whine like a few select old Galio players (you know who I mean) that our pick doesn't directly completely hard counter an entire subset of champions anymore and we can no longer flash R for free aces.

I love this

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