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Lee Sin Reality Check

EROTIC RAID BOSS··9 votes·997 views

  1. He's powerful right now because of how Jungle Experience changed. He's one of a few junglers who can exploit the red>krugs jungle path to get level 3 while everyone else is level 1. This is why he's OP. He wasn't OP before preseason.

  2. All suggestions to nerf anything else are pretty dumb.

  3. ESPECIALLY suggestions to make his ult less reliable. This is his most unique form of utility and the one thing he's good for late game. If you take that away from him, balancing him actually becomes more difficult because he no longer has a unique niche- He'd be in a state where they'd have to make his damage more threatening at all points in the game, or he'd be very underpowered.

When you're talking about game balance its important to think about what are the root causes of a problem in game balance. It's also important to remember that you want a champion to have unique strengths to act as a cornerstone of their balance, so that they don't have to feel super OP to still be useful to a team.

Let's also take a moment to remember that Lee Sin was basically garbage for like a year or more, before we make stupid threads claiming riot favors him.

24 Comments

Big Lincoln4 votes

lee's winrate spiked before the krug changes

the new jungle was just too harsh for a lot of meta junglers, so naturally lee sin came back up

he is the definition of extraneous power though, so i would be happy to see him trimmed anyway

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

Hardly. He's got mobility and a good early game and a good pick. That isn't extraneous at all. People just hate any champion when its strong if its one of the popular flashy playmakers, regardless of the merit of the complaints.

Big Lincoln2 votes

he's got true sight on 2 abilities, execute damage, a shield, sustain, 2 dashes, and his ult deals bonus damage to anyone hit based off the first target's HP.

he is very extraneous.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

sustain isn't extraneous power on a jungler, its what makes their kit good for jungling. This is like calling Fiddlesticks' life drain extraneous power, it isn't his main strength, but it is there to enable his kit for jungling.

I think about the only thing you mentioned that I would consider extraneous is the true sight- if his Q and E just gave normal vision they'd accomplish the same primary goal of giving him the information he needs when using Q2 etc.

I could make a list of everything Vi can do and she'd sound overloaded if I framed it the way you do.

LankPants1 votes

sustain isn't extraneous power on a jungler, its what makes their kit good for jungling.

Sustain is extraneous power when you already have an immensely fast clear and a fucking shield. Plenty of junglers handle the jungle without sustain anyway, trust me, I'm a Sejuani main, it's possible.

I could make a list of everything Vi can do and she'd sound overloaded if I framed it the way you do.

Fucking try it then I'll do a list of everything Lee Sin can do. Listing out kits isn't always a great way to spot overpowered champs, but it's a great way to spot overloaded champs, of which Lee Sin is the king.

Let's just start on Lee Sin, He's manaless, has an AS steroid, has ranged poke, has a dash, an execute, a shield, lifesteal and spellvamp, another dash which is effectively ground targeted, a shield for an ally, AOE damage, truesight, an AOE slow, a nuke with a knockback which he has complete control over the direction of because for some reason he can flash to change its direction. Also an AOE nuke and AOE knock up.

You feel like making Vi sound more overloaded than that? Because I don't think you can, because she's not.

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

His extremely easy early clearing allows him to bully enemy junglers in extreme way, while they struggle with their 4th and next camps, while also having stronge ganks than most of them. People complain about Lee, because his early and mid game is extremely abusive. It's obvious that when abusive champion has almost 40% pickrate it yields complaints. Justified complaints.

Zero Skill Tank3 votes

That's not true. Lee Sin was just as broken before Krug exp buff. New jungle is harsher for many junglers, breaking early game bully jungler like Lee. Also, almost any jungler can do red->krugs. The problem is what happens next.

Claims that he was garbage for a year are unfounded too. He was somewhat weaker than he used to be, which was completely justified considering he was broken for years.

Nyaboron3 votes

You're wrong in just about every fashion.

EROTIC RAID BOSS3 votes

He had like a 46% win rate for a year and was totally out of the meta (partly because gragas was just a better lee sin). Lee sin was not just as broken before the jungle changes gave him a big advantage in the early game. That's just... obvious. If you have to recall after doing krugs, then that doesn't really count. And no he's not the only jungler who gained a lot of early game power from the changes, most of them are OP too.

The problem is obviously with the krug exp. Not the junglers.

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

Nope. Lee Sin's winratio spike and outbreak of complaints started a patch before Krug buff. It's obviously new jungle as a whole that made him step over the line.

And no, Lee Sin is not the only jungle that can do this cheese and not recall. Poppy can easily do it, j4 can, Shyvb and Noc have absolutely 0 trouble, it's a breeze for Cho. I do it even on jungle Teemo.

LankPants1 votes

He had like a 46% win rate for a year and was totally out of the meta

Why is Lee Sin the only champ who can be considered "out of the meta" with a 20% pick rate? Seriously, Lee Sin has never been out of the meta, Lee Sin is the fucking meta.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

popularity is one thing, meta means, you know, actually good and having an influence on the rest of the meta. ezreal is always popular but not always good and 'meta'

but I can see from your replies you have a really irrational hatred of lee sin so that nothing riot does or has done would ever make you happy.

LankPants1 votes

Throughout the last split of the LCK Lee Sin was the 8th most picked jungler. That's not out of the meta, that's a situational pick. Do you know who was out of the meta? Sejuani, Shyvana, J4 and even Olaf. All of these champs had 0 picks. That is out of meta, not the 8th most picked.

but I can see from your replies you have a really irrational hatred of lee sin so that nothing riot does or has done would ever make you happy.

It's not irrational, it's forged over 5 years of seeing Lee Sin repeatedly spared from nerfs or being given pussy nerfs while champs around him are gutted with reckless disregard. It's from the fact that Riot has admitted that Lee Sin was to popular to be nerfed properly, back in Season 4 there was a rework which Riot put onto the PBE which would have fixed a lot of the issues that Lee Sin has. Of course his rabid fanbase attacked Riot at the throat for even suggesting nerfs to Lee Sin, even when they eventually did push through other nerfs the Lee Sin fanbase still attacked Riot for it.

I want to see Riot do to Lee Sin what they did to Sejuani and give him some time out of the spotlight.

AttackOnTeemos1 votes

I don't see any issues with Lee Sin. LeeSin "I don't see anything period"

AttackOnTeemos1 votes

On a serious note, People complain about Lee's clearing I mean I've seen shacos able to LITERALLY grab a buff and meet someone at their side and able to gank them while they still doing theirs o.o

five oh tree 1 votes

Thank you for this post. I agree with pretty much all of it. The krugs xp just made early game junglers overbearing. I mean, can you imagine if pre-update shaco was still a thing right now? he'd stealth gank your lane WHILE YOU WERE LEVEL 1 and be level 3. He'd be able to do it before your first wave even died. His winrate would be like 80% lmao.

And the boards would still say something like, "he's been broken for 6 months rito nerfff 11!1!11"

+1 for not being a complete moron.

Lincoln did have a point though with lee being better suited for the jg because of his natural sustain.

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

Sustain isn't some extraneous power for junglers though lol. its one of a few ways to make a kit a jungler kit. that's like saying Kha'zix's W is extraneous power, or fiddlesticks' life drain.

LankPants1 votes

Sustain isn't some extraneous power for junglers though lol. its one of a few ways to make a kit a jungler kit.

I guess Sejuani, Amumu, Shyvana ect just don't have junglers kits then.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

"one of a few ways" another is to make a tank with high persistent aoe dps

Edge of Daybreak1 votes

He said one of a few ways not the only way.

iLLp1 votes

it pleases me to see a lee sin is not actually op thread with a positive upvote ratio

LankPants1 votes

Here's my reality check to you, the Krugs/Raptor EXP change happened on patch 6.23. Lee Sin's winrate spiked in patch 6.22. Funny how facts so easily debunk your reality isn't it?

EROTIC RAID BOSS2 votes

either way I think its safe to say its a side effect of the new jungle and the changes to the camps.

LankPants1 votes

It's not like Lee Sin was the most picked jungler at worlds and already plagued solo queue with his rediculous pick rate before that is it?

The cancer monk is overpowered cancer now and has been an utter cancer upon solo queue for as long as I can remember.

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