I don't know how many more competitive games you need to see
To realize Cait is still busted.
To realize Cait is still busted.
52.5% win rate 36% pick rate 30% ban rate
you need something else to realise that her traps are a problem?
Not me. Rito does, obviously. Those things are way too oppressive.
Actually, I'll correct you. Those stats indicate that Cait is a problem, not necessarily her traps.
The traps aren't that ridiculous. I think the damage is more a problem than the utility of the ability itself. It basically makes it so that nobody can cross those traps or they'll instantly lose half their health if they don't have 120+ armor. Outside of lane to make use of her siege potential she has to put many skill points into the ability to make it effective. While strong I think a simple damage nerf would suffice, possibly playtested to be coupled with a nerf to the trap duration.
I dont know how bad you have to be
to step on a Caitlyn trap
Support Caitlyn with one of these champions and you can get easy constant traps.
You know those supports don't need to be with Caitlyn to land some super nasty CC.
In fact, I'm pretty sure all manner of Marksman will get mad damage off of them landing their hard cc, not just Cait.
I invite you to learn what Caitlyn's traps reward her with if someone happens to be trapped by one.
Yeah, she gets a massive reward. It's a garbage move that is 90% relying on your opponent to mess up, so I'd hope she gets a big pay off when it finally works out.
Traps last too long, cost no mana, and have no draw backs for badly placed traps or misused traps as she has her net to escape still. A good cait player can either force you completely out of lane or force you to step on traps one way or another, and that should not be ok on any champ unless theyre fed, period.
Look up the trap and read it again. There is a very obvious weakness that you are ignoring for no reason. If you can't find it I'll gladly point it out to you.
If you're referring to the 45 second cd that still isnt an issue, as only TWO LEVELS in her trap ability gives it a shorter cd than jhins traps which are far less useful, and after two levels, less efficient.
Otherwise I really can't see any setbacks.
...
It is an issue because she only gets one trap every 45 seconds in the laning phase.
She gets to put down a Teemo that if you walk into it and she is nearby then she gets a big shot on you.
No she can't force you into it. Cait has 0 ability to move her enemies. If you walk into the trap, that's your choice. If you feel that you are forced into a decision of "walk into trap or not?" then the answer is "not" 90% of the time.
Jhin's traps are an entirely different beast. If you want to talk about them then start a new thread and I will gladly explain how Jhin's traps are OPAF.
(TL;DR located below)
If you have a level one ability it's still not a weakness, you just have to use it less often while still using them just as efficiently, if not more, like every other level 1 ability in the game. Besides one point in YST removes nearly a third of it's cooldown, which no other ability in the game gets that reduction for one level in an ability for a non ultimate ability, which for a place-able unit is pure bull.
And yes of course caitlyn cant actually move your champion, it was a figure of speech. But the traps take up 200+ units, thats forcing you to walk around them constantly, which no other champ in the game can do unless they can create terrain, and the list of champions that can create terrain only consist of Anivia(5 second wall), Azir(3 second wall), Trundle(6 second pillar), Taliyah(6,7,8 second wall) and J4(3.5 second circular wall around target). 3 of those are Ultimate abilities, so we can exclude those, so we are left with 2 left: Anivia wall and trundle pillar.
Trundle pillar takes up a total of 187.5 units and applies a slow, however it deals no damage whatsoever. Cait traps take up individually 67.5 per trap, for a total of 202.5 units (we can safely round that up to 210 because no cait traps will be right next to each other, which allows 7.5 units to move next to the traps. Goodluck with that.), applies a 2 second root and allows cait to get an auto attack off that deals %50'AD + 30 + %70'AD from 1300 units away, while also granting true sight of the champion for 9 seconds. The difference between the two? Caitlyns "terrain" takes up more room, and deals damage which scales very well into the game, all at the cost of having a bad cooldown at level 1 which easily is counteracted by 1 level being put in the ability.
Ok so what about Anivia wall?
Anivia wall takes up 400 units, increasing by 100 units for every level put in the ability. Ok, see look! It takes up more room! And it even has a 17 second cooldown, and provides vision! So this justifies caits traps! Right? No. It doesn't. Anivias crystallise uses 3.5x as much mana as caits traps, on a champion that requires mana to be effective. If we could put the same traps down for the mana cost that anivias wall uses, we would have a 678.5 "wall" that permits high damage. Meaning that caitlyns traps are far more efficient in every way for the amount of mana that they cost in comparison with Anivia. Also, anivias wall lasts 5 seconds, compared to 90 seconds on YST. The difference between the two? Caitlyns "terrain" is more efficient, costs less mana, and isnt an essential part of her kit, unlike anivias wall.
TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR-TL;DR
So, surely the cooldown covers this, I mean like, it's a 45 second cooldown, and thats alot of time, right?
You can only have so much about an ability that is bullsh*t before it just becomes stupid.
Her traps allow her to do too much with little to no penalty for misusing them.
They NEED to be fixed.
Caitlyn dosent even need the traps to out damage most adc's in laning phase, yet here they are; an extra addition to her kit, which she doesnt even need to use in order to be effective, let alone terrifying in terms of damage early on, again, which is bull.
Math. Show it right now or we are done.
Dont even need to show you the math, you already know it: the only champ that out damages cait early on equal amounts of AD is draven. Unless cait for some weird reason takes no AD runes, then its usually in caits favour in terms of early game damage.
Care to comment on, idk, -
"Again, 1 level extra in the ability= roughly a third of its cooldown, bringing it down to just over 30 seconds per trap (32), which no other non-ultimate ability in game gets that treatment. Each traps lasts 90 seconds, which again, for terrain is bull. There is no penalty to using these under enemy towers, which is bull. Minions do not trigger them, which is bull. They cost 20 mana, which is bull. You cannot destroy them, which is bull. They allow cait to proc her passive and hit you with a basic attack at early levels from 1300 units - away. Late game this single auto does roughly the same damage as three, from again, 1300 units away. They grant true vision of the target for 9 seconds. It's "terrain"(because you cant destroy them) that scales into the game, no other terrain does that, which is bull. Caitlyn dosent even need the traps to out damage most adc's in laning phase, yet here they are; an extra addition to her kit, which she doesnt even need to use in order to be effective, let alone terrifying in terms of damage early on, again, which is bull."
Dont even need to show you the math
Yes you do. You had your shot and you blew it.
Next time you want to convince people, be sure to have evidence ready to prove your point.
You're literally asking me to break down every marksman used in the bot lane ability by ability, by showing you the math behind 20 different champions and their entirety? That would take more more than a an entire day to compile every piece of information, and would easily be more than 3000 words let alone additional characters and equations. That's just a gross request.
And you wouldn't even bother to read it and acknowledge any part of it. You would literally do what you have just done: Ignore the math and all the information I HAVE given you, just so you can skimp out and have your pre-confirmed bias not hurt by any facts that are presented to you.
Next time you want to have a decent discussion and not come off as ignorant and trivial, don't ignore facts that are given to you at a ratio of 11:1, seeing as you have more than enough material proving a point and proving you're wrong.
For anyone else, don't be like Tobias here. One person like this is one too many.
You're literally asking me to break down every marksman used in the bot lane ability by ability, by showing you the math behind 20 different champions and their entirety?
Yes. Making games is hard. Arguing about balance is hard. If you nerf something without doing the math, then the people who do the math will figure it out. Then word will spread and the champion will be like how Evelynn was. If you legit think that Caitlyn is so broken that Riot needs to take the time and fix it, don't you think you should do the math to prove it? Because chances are they have done the math themselves and are very happy with her damage.
Prove that her damage is broken? Well it looks like Riot did that for me with 7.14 and 7.16. :)
It really isn't that cait is the problem, it's the fact that nobody can really do as much as we used to be able to do against adc's.
"OMFG TANKSSSSSSSSSSSS" -Tanks receive nerfs
"OMFGMFGMFGMFGMFMG ASSASSINS ARE 2 STWONGGGGGG" -Assassins can no longer function as actual assassins
"OMFGGGFGFJIGOFJGFGFGFG MAGE SUPPORTS ARE BECOMING DOMINANT WTFFFFFF" -The removal of Malzahar and nerfs to many other supports that can punish adc's early on
You would think somebody building complete and total offense would have trade offs to the fact that they have no defensive items - you're wrong, ADC's just need to bitch and moan until uncle Riot fixes them up with a sweet new deal. Caitlyn is very popular - yeah. But others have higher win rates than her, and if you want to bring number into the discussion - MAKE A ARGUMENT. There will never be diversity so as long as Riot continues to enforce a single minded meta.
lol yet last night people made post crying over draven...
twitch has a higher win rate
but here we are crying over cait again
[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tt5XuVcU,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-06-18T00:20:48.477+0000)
lol yet last night people made post crying over draven...
twitch has a higher win rate
but here we are crying over cait again
Caitlyn, twitch, and draven are all broken right now. Not only do caitlyn and draven can bully other adcs into missing lots of cs, they still have a good mid/lategame that isn't weaker than other adcs. Twitch has as much early game power as
yet he scale so insanely hard. Not only that, his midgame rivals that of tanks because adc itemization is too cheap.
yet top 10 adcs are
54.14% win rate 14.71% pick rate
53.26 win rate 4.48% pick rate
52.06% win rate 5.61% pick rate
51.72% win rate 37.4% pick rate
51.58% win rate 3.91% pick rate
51.06% win rate 3.49% pick rate
50.58% win rate 9.3% pick rate
50.47% win rate 7.57% pick rate
50.44% win rate 9.63% pick rate
50.33% win rate 8.78% pick rate
cait is a product of the meta... pushing early , getting turrets faster game hence why she is super popular and has a solid win rate
draven is a bully and if the enemy makes a mistake and he gets a kill or two in lane with his early game power and passive snowballs hard , back to product of meta... of early game dominance and snowballing
mf is still 3rd also do to being a lane bully and early game dominance and power.
now we see adcs like twitch , kalista, jinx, kog, and vayne who all have over 5% pick rates and over 50% win rates... and if you can make it pass 20 mins in a game these champs are way better with scaling and late game power... and considering its such a snowball early game meta for numerous reasons the fact these adcs still have their pick rates and win rates shows that they are actually strong... just most dont know how to play to win conditions, power spikes of team comps /champs hence why we see the dominance of cait/draven and why people are more vocal about them.
i much rather deal with cait and draven and mf then a fed
twitch , kog, kalista, jinx, vayne
the other odd balls here are sivir and jihn
jihn can really do some damage and good from range but can easily be locked down due to lack of mobility not as strong as he was end of last season and start of this season but still good in meta even after armor pen build nerf, leathality nerfs, and nerfs to death fire touch master
sivir is the real odd ball she is good at push and wave clear but her damage 1 vs 1 isnt as dominate as of other adcs but due to her aoe damage and team fights with her ult she makes it real hard to get away from , hence why she was always popular in pro play
I rather not deal with Cait, Draven or Twitch. All of them literally make it very difficult to do anything after a certain point in the game. Vayne's very iffy. She has less suitability than all 3 of those champs.
cait is still a product of best range/poke lvl 1 in game, draven has best 1 vs 1 trades... after 1st back she falls off cuz her dps and as isnt as strong as others from that point til she has 3 main items (typically 25mins+) in game she is at her weakest... til champs like jinx,twitch,kog,kalista,vayne get full build (30-35mins) and they just flat out crush her
to beat cait all you have to do is not give up turret.. stay even in farm in laning phase. if you happen to win lane, get one kill on the other adc she is the worst when behind
Twitch is a late game monster but can be bullied early. Draven is the prime feast or famine champ.
Cait is an oppressive shit at every stage of the game.
Twitch is a late game monster but can be bullied early. Draven is the prime feast or famine champ.
Cait is an oppressive shit at every stage of the game.
Draven is stronger than cait at all phases of the game.
Stronger =/= oppressive.
Draven can't do shit to her when he has to step on a trap and lose half his HP to get to her from under his tower.
Stronger =/= oppressive.
Draven can't do shit to her when he has to step on a trap and lose half his HP to get to her from under his tower.
Oh yeah and draven 100-0ing you in 3~4 autos at lvl 1 is not opressive.
Right, i guess for you since you cant seem to know how to not step on cait traps.
draven is the best lvl 1 damage adc in game
the key to beating draven is not to let him kill in lane at all
he cant snowball with his passive
-Traps -100 more AA range than him -Mobility with E
But don't worry, Draven will kill her as soon as he catches up to her with half his HP gone.
Add Galio and Shen to the pile too.
Such a shame about Shen too. He's been nerfed constantly and feels like absolute shit to play in SoloQ but still broke AF in pro-play.
Because he's not busted or broken. It's just that any communication or map awareness makes it way better/easier for him to pull of an ult and save a team mate.
I don't know how many more competitive games you need** to see To realize **Cait is still busted.
?
Nah, she's fine. People just need to learn how to play against her and not just QQ.
Competitive players are the worst at learning new stuff to beat what is popular.
Well to be honest
were always considered to be to most unskilled unfun ADC with no counters to play against for years.