The Heck is up with the Circlejerk?

PlsTouchMeGently·May 30, 2015·54 votes·2,953 views

What even is this? Almost every other post I see is whining for Ekko to be majorly nerfed, and when playing as him or playing against him I haven't really noticed a need for that. Sure, if he gets fed he's annoying, but no more so than other champions if they get fed. His ult has a high AP scaling, yes, but it puts him in a very vulnerable posistion. He telegraphs a lot (dont follow an Ekko when you have low health, just like a Singed), especially with his W. If your team gets caught in that W they kind of deserve to die with how long the delay is on the stun. Everyone just loves to QQ when they get beat by a champion whose mechanics they feel like they shouldn't have to learn and still be able to crush. "OOOO I'm low, how about I stand in that mirage that Ekko guy is leaving behind?" R "OP NERF PLS NO WAY I COULD HAVE AVOIDED THAT."

49 Comments

Dewey VolkovMay 30, 201510 votes

Personally, I love Ekko because he requires a lot of planning and skill to play. You have to think; where are my enemies going to move? Are they going to chase me? Do I have the damage to backtrack with my ult and still get out alive? He does massive damage, yes. That's something people are always going to complain about with any burst-type mage assassin. LeBlanc is a prime example; she does ridiculous amounts of damage without her ult, and being able to double up on that can one-shot any squishy. The thing about burst mages like Ekko is that they tend to take a bit more planning and skill than other champions, and because they take more skill, it's much, much more rewarding when you do the right thing and do it well.

While he will have a huge nerf coming because of the people who whine and complain because they went 0/15 against a champion that actually takes skill, I think Ekko is fine how he is. Wanna know what kills Ekko? CC. I was just playing Hexa earlier, and in a 48 minute match, and I died I think 17 times (I had more kills, however), because they could land their CC before I had a chance to R, E, or flash. The moment they locked me down, whoever was around converged and killed. Ranged champions with CC, like Cait or KogMaw are a problem. Slow him down and keep him from getting close, and there's nothing to worry about. If he can't touch you, he can't kill you. A huge portion of his damage comes from his E and his passive; both basic attacks. He has to hit you to do the damage, you know? While his dash is just that, a dash, it can only take him so far.

But to round this off without furthering a huge wall of text, I think if you do well as a champion like Ekko, you deserve it. It's not easy. It requires far more thought than your average champion. Not to say that it doesn't take a certain degree of skill to play other champions, but just that there's a huge learning curve for Ekko, and that he's by far one of the more difficult champions to play well, right up there with Azir (having to control multiple soldiers at once and pay attention to where they are, you are, and your enemies are) and... uh, Urgot. Because he's just a mess to play.

Biff ManlyMay 30, 20153 votes

So you're saying Anivia is op if she figures out what to do with her 3 foot-wide wall? Or Bard could secure a pentakill if he figures out what half of his kit is even there for?

GavranMay 31, 20153 votes

well used Anivia walls are crazy OP. In the jungle it's a Jarvan ult on a 15 second cooldown, except half the circle is your teammates wearing their murder faces instead of terrain.

GrogbaMay 30, 20155 votes

Because Riot has a habbit of either releasing severely underpowered champions ( Bard Malzahar Karma ) or overtuned champions ( Darius XinZhao Rengar ) *

Referring to their release states, not their current states

A Miss FortuneMay 30, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because Riot has a habbit of either releasing severely underpowered champions ( ) or overtuned champions ( ) *

Referring to their release states, not their current states

Riot's balance team in general is very poorly organized, I'm not talking about how they make their champions. I love how unique and interesting they make their champions, but the balance of them is very questionable on most champions. Some champions can be so counter-fun that they also are confused with me overpowered. Like Leblanc, is she really overpowered or just very toxic and unfun to fight against.

Still even with hilariously overpowered champions continuing with minimum to no nerfs, I think Riot's biggest mistakes are always with newly released champions.

Zyra for example had at least a 60% win rate and was so crazy overpowered they had to nerf her I believe three consecutive times, the first one only being 48 hours after her release.

Bard currently has one of the lowest win rates this season with Azir, Veigar, Kassadin, and a few others and even after multiple buffs he still remains almost completely irrelevant from the game out of high elo matches, and even then the champion itself is decent once you master him. Great sustain, good teamfighting, but there are also many better Supports or Carries/Junglers that can take the role he is playing and do much greater.

ElJanitorFrankMay 31, 20152 votes

Darius was overpowered? If I remember correctly, which I most likely don't, the only thing they nerfed was his ultimate.

And they just brought that back and he's just fine.

I thought the reason he was so good was that the meta at the time was basically perfect for him, so he rose to the top immediately.

RoyaiChaosMay 31, 20154 votes

They didn't bring it back. Before, the ult reset let him kill the enemy laner as soon as they got back to lane if he got ahead early (which he would because he's a lane bully). So he either got fed off minions or champions and was a nightmare to deal with.

Heckin SupportMay 30, 20155 votes

Because people don't like to wait to learn how to counter, the moment something new comes out and they don't understand how to counter the kit, or dont understand the kit at all people rage and beg for nerfs. People who complain about ekko need to play him, his stun is literally the hardest thing to land with a 3 second wind up. His ultimate is hard to land and pay attention to you need to keep your eyes out on the real ekko and his clone. His dash isn't as long as you think, yes his little barrel roll is annoying but after his e q combo with an auto or 2 he's a sitting duck with no spells to fallow up. He's not AD so its not like being auto'd multiple times hurt (assuming his 3 hit passive is on cd), so just fight back he has long cooldowns early/mid game.

BakedLotionMay 30, 20154 votes

Stop circlejerking the people who say the exact same thing as you. You're only saying this to get upvotes and thinking your opinion is unique. He's op. Deal with it.

DreadlocksMay 30, 20154 votes

Looks like you've started your very own circle-jerk :)

YennMay 31, 20154 votes

OH GOD SOMEONE HELP ME I KEEP GETTING HIT BY THIS 3 SECOND CAST AND WALKING INTO GHOST PLZ NERF VIDEO GAME IS TOO HARD 4 ME

#justboardsthings

IcyPepperMay 31, 20153 votes

dat random downvote

I've noticed that anytime someone brings up the huge counterplay, they downvote and don't respond. Or if they do, they try to bring up other things in his kit and completely avoid that while saying "no counterplay."

Except the clarity on W. The clone coming up to bat should be more noticeable than Ekko's ult ghost, just so you don't confuse the two. That is something I agreed on before.

Lost In TimeMay 30, 20153 votes

Because he's new.

Every champion gets QQ when they're new.

Nucleophilic atkMay 30, 20158 votes

Velkoz

Lost In TimeMay 30, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nucleophilic atk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tj7r9gcW,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-05-30T14:45:21.121+0000)

He's fucking ridiculous, it's a shame most don't know how to play him.

Brand level damage that kits as well as late-game Lux.

SexyTaylorSwiftMay 31, 20152 votes

He's ridiculous? Only if you are unable to dodge his 5 skillshots. Sure, his abilities are strong. But, he is immobile, has them as skill shots, and doesn't have reliable CC. He also has no escape or heal/shield of any kind. He actually has trade offs for his damage, unlike mobile champs.

RoyaiChaosMay 31, 20152 votes

He got it, it just died down quickly.

WheatloafMay 31, 20152 votes

If you don't QQ when you play Vel'Koz, you're using the spell wrong...

Dies to WolvesMay 30, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Because he's new.

Every champion gets QQ when they're new.

most champions get called trash when they're released

ElJanitorFrankMay 31, 20152 votes

No, most of them are called overpowered.

You didn't just join when Bard was released, did you?

Dies to WolvesMay 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

No, most of them are called overpowered.

You didn't just join when Bard was released, did you?

no, I play since closed beta. I meant to say most champions in the last couple of years.

ElJanitorFrankMay 31, 20152 votes

I'm going to assume it's your alt account since your level 11,

Here's my list of what the community thought at release/PBE state:

Ekko overpowered

Bard Sort of down the middle, most people thought he would be too situational.

RekSai Overpowered, though some were skeptical of the ultimate.

Kalista Overpowered.

Azir Overpowered, until his release hit and he had too many bugs.

Gnar Overpowered, some skepticism about not being able to transform on command, saw a lot of high level play.

Braum Can't tell from personal experience, I felt like people were more excited than anything.

Velkoz People thought he would be EXTREMELY overpowered, turned out to be maybe the most balanced champion in the game.

Yasuo Thought he was underpowered. Then he got buffed, people learned to play him, and ever since then people still thinks he's overpowered.

Jinx Can't remember too well, I'm not a huge adc player, though she is at the top of the list right now.

Lucian Underpowered.

Aatrox Overpowered

Lissandra Don't remember

Zac Overpowered.

That's about as far back as I'll go. Again, this is what the community thought at time of release, not what I currently think.

ChaoticPineconeMay 31, 20151 votes

bard was considered troll at release. the only thing people could do with bard is use the ult to troll your own teammates. of all the champions since i started playing (elise was just released), he was the one i saw least of.

Braum was pretty decent. nobody complained too much about the amount of peel he could provide.

lissandra was underpowered on release - low range and low ratios when ziggs/xerath/nidalee were popular mids. then Faker played her (i think at worlds?) and showed she could be competitively viable, as long as youre Faker.She got a lot of play during the "Zed/Leblanc/Talon" mid era.

And i have to say - all the champions you stated that the community thought were overpowered upon release got subsequent nerfs. the only time the community was flat out wrong was with Lucian.

Yasuo was an interesting one - he got a minor buff on release, giving him max flow when he ults. then he received a stream of nerfs since. He was NOT considered UP on release though - people were complaining about his ridiculous mobility using lane minions, his perma-shield, his wall, and his double crit chance.

ayNigerianPrinceMay 31, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dies to Wolves,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tj7r9gcW,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-05-30T17:58:48.119+0000)

most champions get called trash when they're released

Certainly......

YorukinMay 30, 20153 votes

Because every single time a new champion comes out, people will either have a bad experience against them and whine that they're OP, or have a bad experience as them and whine that they're UP. The main difference is usually how much damage they do; Bard's in a good spot, but his damage is incredibly low, especially with his ult eating up his power budget. He also has a super-high skill cap, which in most people's minds renders him useless. By contrast, Ekko has an actual damage output (he's an assassin, what do you expect?), and while he does take a lot of skill to play well, people who can pick him up quickly will inevitably make him slaughter people while everyone figures out how to counter him.

Honestly, a lot of the time these complaints stem from the fact that people need time to adjust to the new thing. Azir was considered really weak on release. A couple comprehensive bugfixes and a learning curve later, and they had to nerf his range just to bring him in line. In the long run, it's very possible that Ekko will need some number adjustments, but at this point he's only been out for two days. It's a little too early to say for sure how badly he needs those nerfs.

EternalDarknezMay 31, 20152 votes

one question op, with as much utility that he has...and as much mobility that he has...does he make up for it with low base damage and/or low scaling?

hint the answers no

PlsTouchMeGentlyMay 31, 20154 votes

{quoted}

one question op, with as much utility that he has...and as much mobility that he has...does he make up for it with low base damage and/or low scaling?

hint the answers no

No, I don't think he makes up for it with low base damage and/or low scaling. I actually think he makes up for it with how squishy and vulnerable to cc he is if he uses his abilities purely to maximize damage output. Also, if one actually knows Ekko's kit well it's fairly easy to counter. To be honest, I find Fizz with his troll pole to be a lot more annoying than Ekko. (Not calling for Fizz to be nerfed btw; I thought the power-shift to his ult was messed up and shouldn't have been done)

EternalDarknezMay 31, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sang Noir,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tj7r9gcW,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2015-05-31T01:31:07.539+0000)

No, I don't think he makes up for it with low base damage and/or low scaling. I actually think he makes up for it with how squishy and vulnerable to cc he is if he uses his abilities purely to maximize damage output. Also, if one actually knows Ekko's kit well it's fairly easy to counter. To be honest, I find Fizz with his troll pole to be a lot more annoying than Ekko. (Not calling for Fizz to be nerfed btw; I thought the power-shift to his ult was messed up and shouldn't have been done)

so he is allowed to have higher dmg, better utility, more mobility than someone like veigar because....he is vulnerable to cc? veigar is to but he doesnt have half the stuff ekko does lol

always funny to see people defending champ releases....like any of em came into the game balanced, gotta admit it makes me laugh when people can see he does more damage, has more utility, has more mobility than a burst mage but he is balanced b.c (insert dumb answer here)

ThewannabegamerMay 31, 20154 votes

Or you could avoid the telegraphed ekko ult, compared to the point and click Veigar Ult. Also this whole "He does more damge than Veigar QQ" is BS. Veigars Q still stacks and his ult can hit way harder.

ChaoticPineconeMay 31, 20151 votes

veigar's ult CAN hit harder, just as ekko's ult CAN hit harder.

Veigar can hit a single APC harder than Ekko can, sure. Ekko can hit multiple enemies (and enemies who dont build AP) harder. theres a problem with Ekko's ult, and honeslty it isnt the numbers (i havent seen one ekko land it consistently). Its that its telegraphed and easily avoided, therefore they put too much power in the rest of his kit - he can use it as an escape and still have enough damage to be relevant.

Yosuke ApperuMay 31, 20152 votes

A lot of champions have enough strength in their kits to kill without ulti(or including their ulti gives them an escape anyways) His total damage out put isn't even much higher than veigar's XD

delonixMay 31, 20151 votes

His total damage output isn't even much higher than veigar's, so why does ekko get so much other stuff stuffed into his kit?

Yosuke ApperuJun 1, 20152 votes

Giving someone possibly infinite scaling ap takes a lot of a power budget... look at nasus.. nasus without stacks is very not scary XD

Zair UmbrasMay 31, 20152 votes

"If you're low, don't chase him". No. If you don't have 3k health and over 100 MR while he has no void staff, don't chase him.

His kit is so damn easy to combo without even using his W. If you have to chase Ekko at all, your carries have to make sure there's at least two or three beef cakes between themself and Ekko because if he tosses his Q behind him while you guys are chasing him, he can then press R, get a second proc of his passive, have done 1.5x his AP and huge bases, then AA with a Lichbane, which would've also proc'd his passive, doing 2.7x his AP. Even without a Lichbane, he can do 2.2x his AP without even landing the 2nd part of his Q. If just the first .2x AP ratio part of it hits to slow the carry and his ghost is within about a 500ish radius, he'll pretty much go Annie on some one's ass and do her entire combo and all he has to do is land the first part of the Q on anyone who's chasing him. Any carry that even gets tapped by the first bit is dead. Instantly.

When we compare this combo to LEBLANC'S own combo... Well.. I'll start with Ekko's numbers with just this tiny combo that only utilizes one and a half abilities and a single AA.

Q's first damage. 160+.2x AP. We'll say he has 500 AP. That's 260 base. Then there's his R which does 500+1.3x AP, which is 1150 base. His Passive then gives him 15+(12xLevel) plus .7x AP, which at level 18 to make it easy is 231+350, 581. Add it all together, that's 1991. That's with 500 AP at level 18, which is a decent amount. Not too many items in.

Now, let's look at LB. Q does 310 plus .8x AP in total, which is 710 damage. R is 600 plus 1.2x AP, which is 1200, then her W which is 245 plus .6x AP, totaling 545. That combo would do 2455.

She does 500 damage, but has to use 3 abilities and has to be within the range. Ekko on the other hand is a little scarier where he does. It's a bit scary.

Now, I know most of you prolly are thinking 'LB does 500 more, that's a lot!', well... You can always E before pressing R on Ekko to help add in that as well, which does 170 base plus .2x AP, so an extra 270.

This champion is meant to be an in and out champion who zones his enemies, which is true because of how ungodly quickly he can destroy a carry. His ghost and his W pretty much describe pure death and are one of the scariest things in the world, but his kit is a little overloaded. Unlike LB, he has sustained damage on his W to execute. It does do 5% base with about 2%ish per 100 AP of Missing Health on anyone who's got 30% or less health. His kit is overtuned, it really is. It needs some nerfs, but not as extreme as some are saying. Like his W could lose a little bit of the ratio and be closer to 1.5% per 100 AP instead and a 1.2x or 1.1x ratio on his ulti, which could be compensated for slightly by making his Q do .3 on the first hit and .5 on the second rather than .2 and then .6 respectively.

3TWarriorMay 30, 20151 votes

okay, consider how large of a radius his ult has...it's huge. he then regains at least 40% of his hp while dealing say 3 to 4 hundred damage with only 100 ap that he would have at level 6, and if luden's is his first epic item, that suddenly becomes 4-500. He now has the power to take out more than 50% of a champion's health in one ability while being free to move as he pleases. If he dashes you, suddenly you take another 40% of your hp in damage

basically, this champ only has to hit 1 Q and then his ult and kit kill you instantly if you are in position. The most unhealthy champs are the champs that literally mean you have to back off or die. I like jayce because of this, but even he can't do that amount of ridiculous damage unless he gets a full combo off, which in and off itself is much harder to do

even Zed/leblanc can't do what this assassin can for free

Yosuke ApperuMay 31, 20151 votes

leblanc tho... q/w/..w away XD so much damage... Leblanc is even safer than ekko...... XD

Doctor DymentMay 30, 20151 votes

He ain't hard to lane against. I play mid lane just to get a few free easy wins off of new Ekko players.

DrackolusMay 31, 20151 votes

Welcome to Gameplay & Balance.

KilaneMay 31, 20151 votes

Wow really? what about cry for Azir nerf circle jerk.

let's compare one of shield escape + engage.

Azir W + E 100 mana cost total, 400 range distance, 15% max hp shield + 60 at cd lvl 1. CD: 19 / 18 / 17 / 16 / 15

Ekko W + E 70 mana cost total, 325 - 625 range distance, 150 + 0.8 AP shield at 15 sec for dash and 22 sec for shield. CD for W: 22 / 20 / 18 / 16 / 14 CD for E: 15 / 13 / 11 / 9 / 7

Do the math.

MidEvilKnight3kMay 31, 20153 votes

You have to wait 3 seconds for your shield on ekko, so comparing numbers so directly doesn't make any sense.

Dr PoroMay 31, 20151 votes

Problem is that he doesn't need his ult for damage. In most situations, his ult is used a ticket out of jail. He has enough AP ratios on his other abilities and 2 passives that he can just go in, kill a squishy and ult out. I think that would be fine if his ult didn't also heal him.

YennMay 31, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Poro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tj7r9gcW,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-05-31T09:08:28.786+0000)

Problem is that he doesn't need his ult for damage. In most situations, his ult is used a ticket out of jail. He has enough AP ratios on his other abilities and 2 passives that he can just go in, kill a squishy and ult out. I think that would be fine if his ult didn't also heal him.

His AP ratios and bases, minus his ult, are the lowest of any AP champion.

SEKAIMay 31, 20151 votes

Kits should be designed with counterplays in mind, and by that I mean pre-defined weakness, and not just relying solely on the enemy players' mechanical faults, that's capitalising, not counterplaying.

Kits that lack actual counterplay is just trouble in the long run, doesn't matter what's the champ's current position.

AFK PushMay 31, 20151 votes

Wait so you're complaining about this circle jerk like this kind of thing is new? Where were you for the pls nerf LeeSin and his overloaded kit circle jerk, where were you for the pls nerf Nidalee and her overloaded kit circle jerk, and it goes on and on with people complaining about champs like Zed Nasus Riven etc. I'm just saying this kind of "circle jerk" isn't new and to be expected when a new champ comes out and makes Yasuo look bad in how loaded their kit is. Also, just because everybody and their mother are hating on a champion because of how unfun or strong a champ is doesn't always mean that it is a "circle jerk," sometimes all of that hate is justified and the champ needs some fine tuning/nerfs.

PlsTouchMeGentlyMay 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Wait so you're complaining about this circle jerk like this kind of thing is new? Where were you for the pls nerf and his overloaded kit circle jerk, where were you for the pls nerf and her overloaded kit circle jerk, and it goes on and on with people complaining about champs like etc. I'm just saying this kind of "circle jerk" isn't new and to be expected when a new champ comes out and makes look bad in how loaded their kit is. Also, just because everybody and their mother are hating on a champion because of how unfun or strong a champ is doesn't always mean that it is a "circle jerk," sometimes all of that hate is justified and the champ needs some fine tuning/nerfs.

Just because it's a common occurrence doesn't make it any less ridiculous. And I honestly don't believe the Ekko hate is justified for reasons I've outlined elsewhere in this thread.