About marksmen

InTheory·May 1, 2018·2 votes·1,976 views

I really want to collect your thoughts alltogether, independent of whether or not you are a marksmen main or not, play them ocassionally or fight them constantly. It is possible to have oposing opinions on that topic, but I want to collect all views about that topic:

What do you think makes marksmen easy to play? What do you think makes them hard to play?

What makes marksmen successfull? What makes them unsuccessfull?

What makes them fun to play? What makes them unfun to play?

What makes them fun to play against? What makes them unfun to play against?

20 Comments

KaìjuMay 1, 20184 votes

Marksmen are both simple and hard. What people fail to realize is that yes right clicking isn't that hard, but what makes it hard is the stutter stepping at high attack speed. If you can't stutter step at 2.0+ attack speed, you aren't mechanically compitant. It's a role where everyone wants to kill you and yes they are overloaded right now, but I guarantee most people who say it's broken and easy have never played a game where their support doesn't give a fuck about them. Playing ADC in a fight where nobody wants to peel for you is the most annoying thing, because you just get killed over and over. The role is easy in that it probably requires some of the least macro play, but it's hard in that you are so dependent on your team. Everyone says ADC can just 1v5 but that just true. "Oh they just stand there and drain tank" like no, clearly you've not tried to duel Olaf who actually is, a drain tank. Or Jax who has a dodge and gap closer, or Malphite with his dumb ads damage scaling with armor and attack speed slow, or any of the other plethora of champions that can walk up to an ADC and ruin them. People on the boards assume that the ADC will always have a perfect support but that isn't true at all, because sometimes the support will flame you for something and suddenly you have to explain to a Soraka where she should be standing when she's purposely standing out of XP range, or a Thresh who has only landed 2 hooks in 10 minutes, or a Leona who doesn't look at map and starts a dive as the jungles shows up. ADC is powerful yes, but support is what enables the ADC. If your support sucks, you're gonna have a really shitty time.

InTheoryMay 1, 20181 votes

Follow-up questions:

If you can't stutter step at 2.0+ attack speed, you aren't mechanically compitant.

Do you think that high AS is an important part of marksmen's identity or could you imagine a world were less attack speed with more impactfull attacks could open up the class for more players in that regard?

Playing ADC in a fight where nobody wants to peel for you is the most annoying thing, because you just get killed over and over.

Being focused all the way comes with the imense damage output. Do you think that lowering the damage output and increase their very own defense/survivability would lead to higher satisfaction for both sides that is not about "burst or being burst"?

ADC is powerful yes, but support is what enables the ADC.

Do you think there is or there SHOULD be a change in their design that makes them less reliable on supports while also reducing their synergy - lowering their value when having a really good support (in comparison to other team members) while increasing their own agency when not having one or even playing a solo position?

KaìjuMay 1, 20181 votes

I think some champions could be made to have lower attack speed with more impact yeah. To use extremes, a champ could be or imo should be balanced to either be like Jhin or rework Kog. You either need to work on timing with few autos or mechanics with high attack speed.

Absolutely. Being shackled to someone who may not perform to do well, feels horrible. That's the agency problem. Marksmen players, some of them, don't like being limited by their teams intelligence to notice maybe they should peel for the carry. I would absolutely take a damage nerf for more self survivability, as it makes more marksmen like Vayne, who I think is a great concept. High skill, good self reliability. Just lower the raw nuke damage so it's DPS and let marksmen work like Vayne, using their skill to outplay rather than "Janna pressed E R."

Yes, I want that to be the design. Teamwork should be important to win. Teamwork should not be mandatory to make your own pick have any value. Every person should contribute to their team, but no one person's contribution should depend on someone else's ability to ENABLE that contribution. An ADC currently had 80% carry power for example, but only if they have a good support. What it should be is that as the damage carry, they should have 25% carry power, maybe 35% if they have a good support, rather than either 10% or 80%. You know what I mean?

Edit: To give my credibility, I am silver 4, yes. However I also really like the game and as such watch high elo players, like to study the game as a developing thing, and am aware I am pretty bad, however having friends in both high and low elo get opinions on my own skill and my ideas and views that can be debated and talked about fairly. I have about 877k mastery on Ashe alone, with a lot of time also invested into Sivir, Cait, and MF. Unless I take a break, I play almost exclusively ADC and have played matchups from meta as shit to Panth support to Renekton Rengar bot. I have experience with what I'm saying. Silver 4 or not, I have experience and that cannot be dismissed with "Oh your X rank."

InTheoryMay 1, 20181 votes

Edit: To give my credibility, I am silver 4, yes. However I also really like the game and as such watch high elo players, like to study the game as a developing thing, and am aware I am pretty bad, however having friends in both high and low elo get opinions on my own skill and my ideas and views that can be debated and talked about fairly. I have about 877k mastery on Ashe alone, with a lot of time also invested into Sivir, Cait, and MF. Unless I take a break, I play almost exclusively ADC and have played matchups from meta as shit to Panth support to Renekton Rengar bot. I have experience with what I'm saying. Silver 4 or not, I have experience and that cannot be dismissed with "Oh your X rank."

I'm the last person who disregards players' opinions based on their ranks - actually a lot of low rank players have a far more differentiated and unbiased opinion than many high diamonds/master players here on boards. I didn't look into the ranks of people that contribute into that discussion here and I'd not ask for it either. Thanks for your ideas !

Mob PiruMay 1, 20183 votes

What do you think makes marksmen easy to play? - I wouldnt call them easy to play its the hardest role to master

What do you think makes them hard to play?

the amount of focus you get all game, you always need to be vigilant for that tp and 4 man dive bot. no other lanes deals with that. and how you have no say about who wins lane. aka bad support your going to be playing catch up the whole game. the only thing the adc controls is there positioning and dmg output the rest is up to the team. Another thing is the fact that anyone can 1v1 you in the early game. and even later. USually a adc will die if a tank is chasing them comes to mind.

What makes marksmen successfull? - a support that is actually good, and a team that peels for them What makes them unsuccessfull? - a support who doesnt ward or peel and a team that forgets they have a adc.

What makes them fun to play? - i like to do the most damage in the game and i love the outplay potential of adc like Ezreal Vayne Kaisa Kalista Lucian

What makes them unfun to play? when tanks are meta. Cant kill em and cant run from em.

What makes them fun to play against? its fun to kill the adcs that think they can outplay u and then find out they just got blown the f up and also usually once the adc is dead the teamfight should be a easy win which means towers and hopefully the game.

What makes them unfun to play against? idk i main adc but i guess people are salty that our autos do alot of dmg but they fail to realize how easy it is to kill a adc or zone them off the fights

InTheoryMay 1, 20181 votes

Follow-up questions:

the amount of focus you get all game, you always need to be vigilant for that tp and 4 man dive bot. no other lanes deals with that. and how you have no say about who wins lane. aka bad support your going to be playing catch up the whole game.

Don't you think that's also the other way around and worse?

a support that is actually good, and a team that peels for them

Could you imagine marksmen synergizing less with supports, decrasing the power of duo lanes while increasing their own agency and opening up solo positions for them and how would you rate such a change?

Mob PiruMay 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Follow-up questions:

Don't you think that's also the other way around and worse?

Could you imagine marksmen synergizing less with supports, decrasing the power of duo lanes while increasing their own agency and opening up solo positions for them and how would you rate such a change?

Yeah it can go either way bad adc or bad support maybe just biased cuz i play adc.

but fact of the matter is u have more auto filled supports who may be bad at the role then bad adc mains.

i think the biggest issue bot is lack of communication between players who are meant to work together more exclusively then other players

I also dont mind the dependance for adc and support. Im not gonna sit here and say adc arent an issue we are, Especially champions like Kaisa Vayne but i think it has more to do with the players themselves not being able to find ways to work with each other bot. So perhaps there should be a bigger incentive for supports to stick with their adcs. maybe new item that synergies with the adc like zekes was amazing it forced supports to be with us.

Dead flag bluesMay 1, 20182 votes

"What do you think makes marksmen easy to play?"

No ressources-management past 5 minutes (for most of them)

"What do you think makes them hard to play?"

Positionning, but like any other champion. They also get focused a lot, and some are mechanically harder ( Vayne Kalista

"What makes marksmen successfull?"

They are way too polyvalent, sieging, taking objectives, wave-clearing, team-fighting, literally every single role

"What makes them unsuccessfull?"

Tbh, apart from the player being bad, I don't see anything

"What makes them fun to play?"

Some have fun kits, once again like Vayne Kalista , but I simply hate this class

"What makes them unfun to play?"

Getting always focused, getting 100-0'd by an assassin who's a bit ahead, even if you're ahead too

"What makes them fun to play against?"

100-0'ing them with an assassin / burst mage [slayer-jinx-wink]

"What makes them unfun to play against?"

Missing a skillshot is way too punished against them, because they can keep auto'ing you while you have to wait for cd's (and late game, most of them deal the same damage as your skillshot with one aa)

InTheoryMay 1, 20181 votes

Follow-up questions:

Positionning, but like any other champion. They also get focused a lot, and some are mechanically harder

Getting always focused, getting 100-0'd by an assassin who's a bit ahead, even if you're ahead too

Would you sacrifice their overall value for the team in order to be less threatened by enemy focus?

They are way too polyvalent, sieging, taking objectives, wave-clearing, team-fighting, literally every single role

If you were to cut what they provide to their team: what would you leave and what would you remove?

Missing a skillshot is way too punished against them, because they can keep auto'ing you while you have to wait for cd's

Could you imagine marksmen being more dependent on hitting skill shots or similar in order to gain their total damage output and how do you rate such an attempt?

Dead flag bluesMay 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Would you sacrifice their overall value for the team in order to be less threatened by enemy focus?

Nope, there should always be a priority target in a team, if it's not them, it would have been someone else

If you were to cut what they provide to their team: what would you leave and what would you remove?

Wave-clearing and sieging (apart from a few dedicated to this job Caitlyn for instance)

Could you imagine marksmen being more dependent on hitting skill shots or similar in order to gain their total damage output and how do you rate such an attempt?

Nope, simply having aa dealing less damage and with a higher "cd" between each attack ( Graves Jhin are the perfect example, and yet still deal too much damage atm)

AR URFMay 1, 20181 votes

I think the problem is Twitch KogMaw Ezreal Jinx Jhin MissFortune . these champs make the role seem easy to play, but in reality the champs that actually require kiting to maximize their potential like Vayne Draven Ashe (arguably) etc. Those champs make the role hard and people often times confuse mechanical skill with a champ just being very strong.

Mob PiruMay 1, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=AR URF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TT16QMNE,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-05-01T16:00:42.293+0000)

I think the problem is . these champs make the role seem easy to play, but in reality the champs that actually require kiting to maximize their potential like (arguably) etc. Those champs make the role hard and people often times confuse mechanical skill with a champ just being very strong.

the only adc i can say that are just over the top right now was and always still is Vayne the true dmg proc is insanse with PTA that amount of burst she does its like her lane phase is being a bully something Lucian should be doing not her.

InTheoryMay 1, 20181 votes

Thanks for both of your input - but I want to ask to not drift into a marksmen X is too strong or stronger than others.

Individual balance is shared among all classes and usually doesn't help when trying to define what is good design for a class and what is not. It'd be more helpful here to share your thoughts on what makes an individual marksmen having a good design/gameplay pattern outside of strength.

AR URFMay 1, 20181 votes

{quoted}

the only adc i can say that are just over the top right now was and always still is the true dmg proc is insanse with PTA that amount of burst she does its like her lane phase is being a bully something should be doing not her.

Vayne is the staple of shredding tanks. I don't know why everyone has a problem with Vayne shredding tanks, but are just fine with Nasus building up a ton of AD and almost one shotting. Or Rammus dealing more damage to the enemy than he is receiving just by letting ADC's auto attack him.

Aerial Queen LizMay 1, 20181 votes

What do you think makes marksmen easy to play? The fact that most of them are auto attacks reliant, and have little to no skillshots except for a few oddballs Ezreal , you also get your own support whose job is to protect you

What do you think makes them hard to play? You gotta build glass cannon to be effective while being aware that the enemy team will focus you over anyone else on your team. Having a bad support also makes your lane really difficult, especially when facing a good one, and unless you're duoing it's a coin flip every game.

**What makes marksmen successfull? **DPS. They are the class with the highest DPS, they can melt tanks and destroy squishies as long as they stay alive. They also are the best class for taking turrets and objectives.

What makes them unsuccessfull? Falling behind or having no peel from your team, especiall vs champions like Zed or Leblanc an ADC can't really fight an assassin without help from their team or without burning summoner 7 summoner 4

What makes them fun to play? Being one of the highest damage dealers, and high skill expression (positioning and surviving while dealing as much damage as possible)

What makes them unfun to play? Not having much cc on most of them, giving them a really hard time on team comps with low cc, and being so dependant on having some sort of frontline or enchanter.

What makes them fun to play against? They're squishy. They're greedy for farm, and you find them all alone in a side lane a lot of times, they're fairly easy to kill by themselves (and most of them when they die they type in chat about how that one champ is broken or how their team is useless etc)

What makes them unfun to play against? a fed ADC feels more like an assassin right now, and with a good tank and support by their side there's little counterplay

InTheoryMay 1, 20181 votes

Follow-up questions:

you also get your own support whose job is to protect you

What do you think needs to change that marksmen are less dependent on having to duo up and be better successfull on their own?

You gotta build glass cannon to be effective while being aware that the enemy team will focus you over anyone else on your team.

How do you rate marksmen itemization being optimized towards full glass cannon builds instead of putting like one full defensive item to give up some offensive power while being much harder to kill when focused?

Being one of the highest damage dealers, and high skill expression (positioning and surviving while dealing as much damage as possible)

What contributes most to the high skill expression?

Aerial Queen LizMay 8, 20181 votes

What do you think needs to change that marksmen are less dependent on having to duo up and be better successfull on their own?

As long as marksmen stay in a duo lane, they will be in a 2vs2 and that makes their laning dependant on how good their duo laner is, regardless of what champion it is. Other than that, some champions have no mobility at all and need peel from their allies to survive, marksmen like Lucian or Quinn are completely fine in a solo lane as we've seen. I don't really think it can change for some of them, though.

The only defensive items a marksman can build and actually use effectively right now are item 3071 item 3026 and item 3156 . Anything else is considered trolling, and for good reasons: Sacrificing damage for defensive stats on an AD carry means your dps will be lower than the enemy, and that might decide a fight, two fights, or the whole game.

What contributes most to the high skill expression?

Being a squishy target everyone wants to blow up, with the potential to do the highest damage output is what makes it probably the hardest role to master.

FurriesAreHotMay 1, 20181 votes

Easy Play: at face value, you’re Damage is right clicking. So technically, yes you right click to damage, and give a newb 6 items and he could face roll other noobs.

Hard Play: knowing how to position yourself to attack your target without being blown up, kiting (less relevant right now, but it still stands), Synchronizing your character and your support to play against the enemy carry’s character and support, and finally, you’re a glass cannon alone.

Successful: High ranged Damage, usually occampanied by a support to aliviate weaknesses, typically doesn’t fall off

Unsuccessful: If you fall off you might not recover (depends on champion/situation), without team play you can get CC chained/assassinated.

(SUBJECTIVE) Fun: Feels good to play, consistent auto attack output gives a nice feeling, kiting a tank and watching them struggle, often get really fucking fed

(SUBJECTIVE) Unfun: Lack Of Team Play can you CC’d/assassinated so often you feel hopeless and don’t want to play, if you fall off hard enough you do 0 damage to tanks and squishies alike, RAKAN STEALING MY PENTA (joke)

(SUBJECTIVE) Fun Vs.: Very easy to pop, everyone loves popping squishies,

(SUBJECTIVE) Unfun Vs.: A hyper fed carry can appear nigh impossible to defeat, sometimes you play a champion who just gets shit on by the enemy carry’s Champion, some carries are really obnoxious to lane against (Like MF, for me atleast)

I think I was fair in my judgement, if you disagree please tell me how my ADC main status clouds my thoughts. (For real, if you disagree, discuss it!)

InTheoryMay 1, 20181 votes

Follow-up questions:

at face value, you’re Damage is right clicking. So technically, yes you right click to damage

knowing how to position yourself to attack your target without being blown up, kiting

How do you rate the tradeoff of having less skill in a champion's kit for a higher skill expression in positioning?

High ranged Damage, usually occampanied by a support to aliviate weaknesses

Do you think marksmen should gain better agency on their own with the tradeoff of working fairly worse in a duo?

Feels good to play, consistent auto attack output gives a nice feeling

Can you go into more detail about that? Is it more like "the enemy can't trade back", "the enemy can't reach me" or something else?

FurriesAreHotMay 1, 20181 votes

I think positioning is just the surface of it. You gotta think fast, and make important decisions with large consequences if you choose wrong. Kit is still a piece of the Champion pie, though not as skill-intensive on its own, weaving it into your play will never be the same across 2 marksmen.

How would you make a change that would increase Marksmen agency, but specifically reducing Duo efficiency? I can't think of any myself, but I'm open.

It's hard to explain why playing Marksmen feels fun, for me atleast. But the auto attack output was more mean't to say watching the enemie's healthbar steadily decrease is just satisfying. But sure, there are times where a Marksmen can be dominating a trade, that would feel good on any character.