You hot fix Singed in 24hrs hardly a fair amount of test time to see what made his win rate go up. Why arent these champs hot fixed? Did a silver Singed flip you into tower and ruin your fun? Or is it that Singed doesn't bring in the money like other champs? How come no hot fix on lethality? Jhin was was way overpowered for how long before nerfs came? But he was new so you had to keep him op so you could sell skins.
LostFr0st2 votesNo, Singed was a champ with a very high skill-floor. After his gameplay update, first-time Singeds were crushing games just by mashing buttons, so they hotfixed him. Now Singed has a respectable winrate.
Cho'Gath on the other hand is strong, but he's not crushing nearly as hard as Singed was. If his E is on cd he's a lot less of a threat, but people haven't learned to respect that yet.
Sensual Singed1 votesnever gave people time to respect singed. not even 24hrs and nerfed him win rate too high. these champs have even higher win rates but they arent nerfed.
LostFr0st2 votes? They are still getting pooped on by any Singed that has read the tooltips and has more than 5 games on him. The hotfix literally only touched his base health and scaling HP. That mostly affects laning. They just didn't account for his new passive helping him dodge more things. The ult cd super tiny nerf doesn't even count. It should have always been scaling.
He also synergizes incredibly well with the new 
and 
and he can now build damage which people still can't hammer through their heads that they will die if they sit in the poison.
It's something last experienced late season 4 if I'm remembering right.
Sensual Singed2 votesSo if an item is making him op we better nerf him but ignore the other op champs. And lets nerf his early lane since hes already weak there. Where are these first time Singed players that are destroying solo queue? Silver? Yeah we should nerf a champ because some brain dead opponent doesn't know how to walk the other way. Where are these first time Singed players destroying Darius, Kennen, Jayce, Vlad, and Panth in lane?
Jesuszilla1 votesWait wait wait, the running simulator has a high skill-floor? I think you have it mistaken. Singed is a rather simplistic champion to wrap your head around, the side effect of which means that his gameplay is rather straightforward and players can play around that, because he's limited in what he's going to do.
Champions like that tend to be harder to play at higher skill levels, not because they have a higher skill floor but because they are rather inflexible picks with clear weaknesses.
LostFr0st1 votesThe running simulator indeed has a high skillfloor. I believe last time Riot updated us (old) Singed was surpassed by pretty much only Aurelion Sol and Azir. This is due to his playstyle being unlike any other champ in the game, making it difficult to transfer any mechanics learned on other champs to the Singed playstyle. The update improved his skill-ceiling and somewhat evened out his skill floor by making items less of a noob trap and his base hp less punishing early.
Jesuszilla1 votesI'm sorry but Singed mechanics are pretty basic and the addition of grounding to his glue now has reduced that floor. He's a relatively easy champion to pick up mechanically and though he isn't quite as basic as say Garen, he's still not anywhere near a difficult to play or high-skill cap champion.
He's easy to play and relatively easy to master, especially compared to someone like Azir. I don't think there are many players out there willing to count Singed as "high skill-floor"
LostFr0st1 votesHis rework has shifted it, I'm sure. But that doesn't change that he was up there before since he had no true gapcloser and was heaving reliant on the game knowledge to know when and where to apply pressure. I hope they update us on where he sits now on that list. Udyr was up there with him back then for similar reasons.
I don't think there are many players out there willing to count Singed as "high skill-floor"
No, you're right, players won't call it out but it shows up in Riot's internal data. I was indeed surprised too. At both Udyr and Singed being there.
Jesuszilla1 votesGame knowledge that is important on every champion though. And sure, he doesn't have a dash gap closer, but he does have a movespeed steroid and a powerful ranged area slow. He has nothing innate to him that makes him special, knowing when to zone and capitalize on engages is something all champions need to know, as is movement.
And no, what are you talking about? Where is Riot saying Singed is somehow Azir levels of difficulty or comparable?
From what I can see is that there are three tiers of difficulty, which doesn't really give you an accurate spectrum of difficulty really, and singed sits at 2, Azir at 3. Where is this magical descriptor that shows that Singed is somehow high skill floor (which he isn't, just period)
LostFr0st1 voteswhole thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/5it89y/anivia_in_71/
select comments:
Phroxz0n:
I don't believe there's an aggregated list anywhere, but champion.gg used to have some semi close graphs. Taliyah is showing 80% winrate for 125+ games though, which indicates sample size problems (they just don't have the same volume of data that we get). Off the top of my head in no particular order, top 10 is roughly udyr, singed, azir, ryze, Vladimir, taliyah, Anivia, rumble, asol, gp, tf. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/5it89y/anivia_in_71/dbbm5bz/
Zirene:
Back around a few months after Azir release it was Azir, Rumble, Udyr in the 1,2,3 slots. Imo the champions that usually occupy the top slots have unique mechanics that you can't learn by playing other champions. Sometimes playing something like a Skarner or Volibear could prepare you for Udyr's style, but a lot of people don't get the whole "no ultimate" 4 stance dancing. Rumble self silences and aiming his ultimate was always considered a highly rewarding ability when mastered. And Azir took a lot of time learning to control the soldiers and you got rewarded heavily for landing hits, but if you misplaced your soldiers you got dunked on. The other thing to consider when looking at mastery curve is that the champion may be hard to learn etc. but they are incredibly rewarding to learn! Which usually means they are incredibly powerful in the hands of a master. Difference between Azir being 35% first play and 53% 100th play and someone being 29%-49% with a 20% jump but the champion is still meh even when perfected. https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/5it89y/anivia_in_71/dbbcnnq/
Jesuszilla1 votesSo the thread is talking about which champions are the hardest to master, as in which champions have steep learning curves. Singed may have a steep learning curve, but learning curve is not the same as high skill-floor, as he is easy to play difficult to master status.
Your original posts seem to imply that he is somehow difficult to play in general, which is simply not true. I still disagree with the characterization that Singed is a steep learning curve, his recent changes particularly as well as some of the past reworks have taken a lot out of that kit.
Furthermore the comments seem to indicate that what they are talking about is the difference between the base and ceiling of the champion, and that players who are good on a particular champion are much stronger than ones who are just average on that particular champion. The gap in skill between the floor and the ceiling, implying that he isn't a high skill floor but rather a high skill ceiling, which is something that I would agree with more than anything. Champions that have less going on tend to have a larger gap in higher skill tiers/between basic play and mastered play, because those players have to do more while working with less.
None of which you imply in your initial post either through miscommunication or such.
So if you are of the opinion that singed is generally very basic to get into, but has a steeper learning curve required to take your game to a higher level, then yes I agree. That's a philosophy I have had for many champions I play, champions with specific and limited types of kits tend to have these steep curves to higher levels of play. If you are trying to say that Singed is generally hard and that the skill-floor, or the base level of skill required to play said Champion is high, I disagree with entirely. he's easy to learn, difficult to master.
Furthermore what they are specifically talking about is this: http://champion.gg/champion/Singed/Top?league=platplus
There is a chart there called Win Rate % by Games Played, and they are referring to the difference in winrates as experience increases, certain champions spiked over time while others did not. The problem with that resource though is that it's taken from individual ranks, so you'd have to make decisions based on whether you accept all data from all ranks, specific ranks, combine that data, etc. This also only takes into account the current season. It's interesting though that some champions actually start doing worse with a lot of games played. So there is that as well.
I'd say it's a pretty big stretch these days to call singed high skill.
LostFr0st1 votesI think there's a decent middle ground here.^
I'd say it's a pretty big stretch these days to call singed high skill.
Yeah, idk about new Singed. Old Singed was a pain in the butt to even get farm on without proxying and dying for it. He lost all lanes walking into them.
New one... not so much^^" That probably slashed quite a bit off the floor.
Sensual Singed1 votesA rough quote from Riot Scarizard 1 year ago: "People think Yasuo Zed and Azir are the hardest champions in the game, [...] no it's Singed and Rumble".
Singed isnt a champ most people can just pick up and win with he has a very unique style thats why there arent many casual Singed players most of them are one tricks like myself. At the time of the hot fix singed had a 54% winrate in plat and higher. that is about normal for singed any lower typically shows a problem. If you noticed when Singed was played in lcs his win rate dropped down to 46% and his play rate went up.
The game should be balanced off the higher elos not lower. I get annoyed when my champ gets nerfed and others get ignored cause silver players dont know how to walk the other way or stand way out of position and then complain new Singed w is op. Back when Singed Suicide proxy singed was around is when he needed to be nerfed that was respectable cause that was stupid op. But he still loses lane to most match ups. But even in silver I had a 90% win rate on Singed with 60+ games because I knew my champ in and out I had over 600 games of Singed last season across 4 accounts. He requires a lot of experience to be good he one of the least micro intensive champs but he is among the highest macro intensive champs.
LostFr0st1 votesWhere are these first time Singed players that are destroying solo queue? Silver?
Ok, so I'll ask you this. Who is OP with and ?
Pretty much no one.
The Rioter in charge of releasing the update for Singed misjudged how much of a benefit he would have through his new passive combined with the AP itemization tweaks that same patch. He even apologized to the Singed mains directly on Reddit.
Because PBE games suck for balanced matchmaking, it wasn't possible to see any fine-tuning he would have needed.
So, instead of the designer erring on the side of caution and releasing him nerfed (which he was maybe thinking of doing), he gave Singed the ok and released him as-tested, knowing they could hotfix it if they needed to.
I'd rather they do that than release him nerfed and take 7 patches to buff them into something useful because of fear.
Jesuszilla1 votesYou understand that winrate isn't the only factor in changes right? It's entirely likely that Riot was already wondering how overtuned his new changes would make him and found that he still had too much durability for the movespeed. Hotfixes happen when there's a clear change to be made and they already have the reason do implement it in place. Those other champions are likely on the list for changes but the changes haven't been determined yet.
But clearly there's no bias here with that name and all...