Here in England we have this initiative I see as "you said, we did," showing how organisations have responded to their clients and customers to improve their PR and create a more positive experience. Seeing as how incredibly player focused Riot is especially in recent months, and how obviously busy they must be making the game as enjoyable as possible, I'm taking the liberty of setting up one here so Riot can let everyone know what an amazing job they're doing:
Cindikle76 votesWhen did people actually say they wanted a Cass rework? Riot didn't like her style of being a lane bully. So they made her a lane bully.
Most Veigar fans didn't want him touched. We all knew it was coming though. And I'm going to wait at least a couple bigger patches before I call it a failure.
Flawless Fetus47 votesMost Veigar fans didn't want him touched. We all knew it was coming though. And I'm going to wait at least a couple bigger patches before I call it a failure.
Well, when they said the DFG reliant champs would receive compensation I was expecting some changes. I wasn't expecting nerfs though. I think that caught everybody off guard.
SpecterVonBaren16 votesHard to expect when this is the kind of thing we were expecting.
Lich Bane gets nerfed, Fizz recieves.
V4.4:
Seastone Trident
Active AP ratio increased to 25% from 15%.
It's not much, just a minor buff, compare that with what they did to Veigar....
Isomodia5 votesIf you have been following Riot's design philosophy at all for the past two years or so, you'd have noticed they are removing ranged point and click stuns. Taric will get his soon as well, and people will cry about it, too.
chumbler13 votes[{quoted}](name=NTGL Iso,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TEm4kp4r,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2015-03-04T07:03:51.533+0000)
If you have been following Riot's design philosophy at all for the past two years or so, you'd have noticed they are removing ranged point and click stuns. Taric will get his soon as well, and people will cry about it, too.
Riot's design philosophy is, you might notice, complete dog shit.
Raptamei9 votesWhen did people actually say they wanted a Cass rework? Riot didn't like her style of being a lane bully. So they made her a lane bully.
Most Veigar fans didn't want him touched. We all knew it was coming though. And I'm going to wait at least a couple bigger patches before I call it a failure.
That goes for pretty much any rework. Riot is reworking champions even though no one asked for it and the resulting champion is always boring and usually useless. (But has "counterplay"!)
Sakuri Ono46 votesRiot Said: "We're going to offer balancing and Ranked queue for Dominion."
Riot Said: "Dominion players need to strive to build a bigger community before we'll follow up on our promise."
Riot Did: Murdered the only tools Dominion players had to build that community, the forums. Also scattered the tournament community and spat in the faces of the players who did THEIR WORK for them. Additionally structured Boards to make it impossible to promote the mode via Streams or long standing posts thanks to the Reddit structure. Then for giggles made sure the URL for 'Maps and Modes' is actually "/Summoners-Rift"
1st HanarSpectre24 votesYou don't have to look very far into Riot's story to find disappointment. From beta promises yet to be fulfilled (Replays/achievements) to things finally delivered several years after the facts (Spectator service, beta icon rewards, a working forums back in the days/etc...) to PR nightmare (pantheongate/the great 6300 IP lie/etc..
Now here's the deal. I firmly believe that all of Riot's employee on an individual basis care very much for the game and do try to do their best in whatever fields that they are, but as a whole, Riot is an unorganized mess of a company. You have a giant beasts with multiple mouths saying conflicting things constantly while multiple tentacles take away and give sporadically.
Thryale3 votesI think ppl fail to realize how large of an undertaking replays would be.
I'm fully aware that it's possible via 3rd parties. But you need to realize that if riot were to do so themselves, they are going to want to do it all in house, and storing millions of replays for any length of time is going to consume a huge amount of space, not to mention it can easily overload network traffic and bog things down if implemented improperly.
And these are just a few observations from someone completely inexperienced with the process. I'm certain there are far more variables involved that is preventing this from being done anytime in the new future.
Sozan58 votesWhy would they want to store any replays on their servers?
They can store it directly on your HDD - you know... like every other game (even Warcraft 3, in which original Dota was created had replay function) AND even the 3rd party programs do (Lol replay and baron replay save the replay directly on your HDD).
Eedat22 votesOh, its time for this thread again already?
Sweetie Brella63 votesAs long as Riot continues to act like what they're doing is acceptable, yes. Yes it is.
Lao Fu the Tiger14 votes[{quoted}](name=Sweetie Brella,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TEm4kp4r,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-03-03T19:24:02.324+0000)
As long as Riot continues to act like what they're doing is acceptable, yes. Yes it is.
It is acceptable. You just aren't patient.
Tank junglers are getting HUGELY buffed in this upcoming patch. Likewise, the jungle creeps are getting nerfed to reasonable levels so junglers aren't dying during their first clears.
Veigar has been active in one patch since his rework. For barely more than a week. That doesn't mean they're ditching him, or leaving him to die. It means they wanted to really test a change (however good or bad it was) and get actual, physical data before doing further exploration into what is to happen to him next (whether that be nerf, buff, or no action). That's perfectly fair. That's how real world data gathering works. Internal testing, deployment, then maintenance. One can argue that the internal testing was bad (and I agree, it was rushed and not well thought out, in my opinion), but that's simply how the system works. There simply is no better data-gathering method than deploying something live and seeing the results.
The case with Ahri was a huge backlash by the community and incredibly overpowered success, despite even some PBE players saying they hated the changes. To be fair, the exact same thing COULD have happened with Veigar when he was deployed.
It hasn't happened yet, and therefore more review is necessary as to what can make him good again.
Kazaashi7 votes[{quoted}](name=Lao Fu the Tiger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TEm4kp4r,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-03-03T22:09:36.695+0000)
It is acceptable. You just aren't patient.
Tank junglers are getting HUGELY buffed in this upcoming patch. Likewise, the jungle creeps are getting nerfed to reasonable levels so junglers aren't dying during their first clears.
Veigar has been active in one patch since his rework. For barely more than a week. That doesn't mean they're ditching him, or leaving him to die. It means they wanted to really test a change (however good or bad it was) and get actual, physical data before doing further exploration into what is to happen to him next (whether that be nerf, buff, or no action). That's perfectly fair. That's how real world data gathering works. Internal testing, deployment, then maintenance. One can argue that the internal testing was bad (and I agree, it was rushed and not well thought out, in my opinion), but that's simply how the system works.
But its affecting my ranked games now.!!!!!!!1 QQ, blah blah blah, [insert some emotional response because someone cannot handle being worse at a video game than they think they are.]
Anidan21 votesExcept.. that is a viable complaint right now. It's affecting literally everyone in the game with the champion because of the half-baked implementation.
I have no clue why you're making it sound more personal than it is.
Kazaashi1 votesExcept.. that is a viable complaint right now. It's affecting literally everyone in the game with the champion because of the half-baked implementation.
I have no clue why you're making it sound more personal than it is.
Because people need to be patient and get a feel for how a champion works after a rework. How can new strats and builds be found in under a week?
Maybe you just shouldn't play a post rework champ in Ranked?
Anidan11 votesI understand that people need to be patient, but even so the current iteration of his E was very, very obviously poor implementation. Even if it was going to happen inevitably (and it was), they could have given Veigar something at least to help his horribly crippled E. And thankfully, he has some buffs on the way from PBE, but that doesn't change the current situation for people who actually enjoyed him. It's hard not to sympathize with them, because what if your favorite champion never suffered that kind of gutting change before only to have it happen seemingly out of the blue? Now, I'm not saying it hasn't happened to your favorite champion or anything, but still. Just kind of understand that making it sound more personal doesn't help, even if it may be true.
Not that telling them to be patient helps either.
Though, I will say that even in light of this change, at least Veigar players were unified in understanding the problem. Lee nerf bandwagoners can't even get that much straightened out.
Lao Fu the Tiger2 votesBut its affecting my ranked games now.!!!!!!!1 QQ, blah blah blah, [insert some emotional response because someone cannot handle being worse at a video game than they think they are.]
To a degree, yes.
People crave balance. But they don't realize truly balancing a champion in the best possible way takes time.
If Riot tried to balance absolutely everything in one patch, then made reactionary changes immediately, this game would be absolutely terrible.
I'm willing to wait a patch, even two or three or sometimes four, if that means my champions are getting the attention they need rather than the gut-reaction changes the community unduly demands.
GloriousKaiser9 votesNobody is denying that good changes take time. Were not being impatient.
But: Riot doesn't provide enough insight on PBE. All they do is patch changes and then what? Nothing. Were expected to just accept these without a hitch.
Why does the community constantly have to badger Riot for commentary on their decisions? Why can't Riot give PBE commentary where it's heavily overdue?
People don't just say "Don't nerf Veigar". They're asking "WHY?"
We need more context. Riot doesn't speak to their players unless THEY decide to hold AMAs, THEY decide to answer for balance questions on less contreoversial issues.
Riot prides itself on amazing community interratio: Trust me, I've been here since S2, that's simmered down to a joke.
Nobody would cry if Veigar got changed the way he did WITH COMMUNICATION. Riot doesn't even talk much anymore. They just nerf and push patches.
How hypocritical too. If a key component to ultimate victory is to communicate with teammates, how come Riot can't properly communicate their thoughts on PBE?
Flawless Fetus2 votesI think the biggest issue is how they said he'd get compensation. There's more to this than 'why did they nerf Veigar?'. They advertised buffs and then cut his penis off.
Learnding7 votesOh, its time for this thread again already?
Oh look, another snobby self entitled ass kisser?
Eedat3 votesoh look, another whiny little crybaby that is going to complain about the free game RIOT provides for us?
Learnding13 votesoh look, another whiny little crybaby that is going to complain about the free game RIOT provides for us?
"oh, hey guys, since our game is free that entitles us to lower the quality of the game, but keep playing it because it's free".
Everyone on this forum knows my points are valid, EVERYONE. If you yourself deny any point that I make, you're literally an ass kisser, you don't want change and you want this game to run into a wall and crash. My points clearly bring up everything Riot does wrong on a fundamental level and every excuse they make can't justify it. THEY have the money to make change, THEY have the man power to pump out the content the community craves.
Creating a clothing line with shitty cotton fabric then charging 85$ because it glows in the fucking dark isn't content, it's a cash grab. If I wanted glowing clothing I'd blow a load all over my hoodie then expose it to a black light. Look at any company, ANY. Bethesda as one has bombed games in the past and they still offer reliable and cheap clothing and electronics to clearly show they care about the community, they literally have a custom created clothing line CHEAPER than the shit Riot offers, CUSTOM.
Bethesda and Valve are two companies Riot should be taking notes from, not Blizzard; of all the fucking companies. Blizzard created the most popular MMORPG in the world and to this day continually gripe customers with expansion. Bethesda? They are the cornerstone of the RPG element, Valve? They're the cornerstone of PR reliability and loyal customer compensations, they literally manage 4 or 5 extremely popular gaming lines actively, and 2 of those are played world wide, and they STILL on a daily basis show they care about their customers, they still show they are dedicated to bring the masses the best they simply can create.
Riot? They manage the most successful MOBA gaming experience to date, and they can't even figure out how the jungle works. You're telling me right now, Riot in the current state, is in the right? You're telling me Riot with their multi-billion dollar profit can't pursue a line of community created content, you're telling me Riot can't sit down for 50 seconds and revise; maybe some of the shit they created really isn't what the community needs? You're telling me that on a weekly basis nerfing and buffing literally everything about League of Legends is the correct path they should be changing. Do you even think 2-3 years down the road? Are you honestly sitting here and telling me you'd want this shit happening over another 2 year basis? Constant jungle changes because someone played Karthus in the jungle?
I still don't understand to this day why Riot isn't embracing niche choices in any form, they actively show they are completely against it, they are actively showing they want a stale, stagnant meta that never drives off the beaten path. Just because a couple losers hated AP Tryndamere because he has too much sustain, that justifies that entire side of his kit be stripped to leave Tryndamere in a pool of champions, "maybe", getting reworked? Get out of my face with that bullshit. I wan't to play AP Sion, I want to play AP Tryndamere, I want to play AD Leblanc. I want to see these picks, I want to see these choices actively being focuses as a bold point Riot brings to the Moba experience, not some Chinese kid who spends his entire life getting good at Zed. Faker and all these professionals you see? Those people are going to be forgotten memories, gones, nadda, cya. What's going to leave an imprint? The game itself.
URF mode was that chance, it was that golden opportunity Riot had to grab the attention the public wanted. It was a mode that gives everyone wacky stats and revolves around going crazy and having fun, So they removed it, called it a joke and gave us bots that use their skills more. OH, YIPEE! Poro King! I can toss creates that I had no idea even existed since the League of Legends lore is pretty much summed up around a backwards haiku and a mentally challenged kindergardener spitting on a piece of card-stock. What's next? Nemesis Draft, oh that sounds eerie, dark and magnificent, I wonder if it has to do with the Shadow Isles? Nope, it's draft pick and you give the enemy team support champs, GOOD LUCK! Wow, I had so much fun ripping my hair out because the integrity of the game is to troll. Wait, Wait. What about that 1v1, 2v2 mo.... Nope, 3 people said it would be a bad idea since the current content Riot has is clearly better and more efficient.
There should be no point in any game where one solid point of the champion pool is cast aside simply because it doesn't fit in the meta, it should never happen point set match. If your intentions are to create a champion that dies in a few weeks and is never played, don't create it. At this point and time, League of Legends brings nothing to the Moba experience, and I don't really think Dota 2 can carry Riot's losing grip on their mess of a product, I simply can't see this game living another 2-3 years. Dota? They'll be here for years, YEARS. That game ain't going no where and the sooner you realize that Dota 2 is CLEARLY the predominate game; even though it is harder. The sooner you'll get your head out of your ass and take a stand on this shit. You can argue all day on how League of Legends is GREAT! and how it's so clean and NEW! Dota 2 is simply going to outlast, all there is to it. The game is going to evolve and League has nothing to pressure it.
There's going to be a Dota 3 and 4 by the time League finally realizes Urgot is actually a champion.
Eedat4 votesEveryone on this forum knows my points are valid, EVERYONE. If you yourself deny any point that I make, you're literally an ass kisser,
I have never seen such an obvious troll. Fuck it, I'll bite one more time
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Don't believe me? How about we ask an industry expert what he thinks about Riot?
He goes on to say:
"My conclusion was that League of Legends gives too much away for free and it doesn't sell power. Riot could sell exclusive premium champions - they could, but there would be a Riot in the customer-base...*** If they let me change League of Legends I could double its revenue, and they could afford to lose 60 per cent of the customer-base and still do twice as much money.***"
"This is my key recommendation here: League of Legends is an exception. It should not be a role model for your monetisation system... You shouldn't look at League of Legends if you want to learn about good monetisation. Riot can afford it. You might not."
So tell me more about this money mongering RIOT games that give nothing to the community. RIOT gives **MILLIONS ** in potential profit away to its fans every day yet all it gets is angsty teenagers bitching up a storm about the game RIOT gave them for free. Want to refute the industry expert's points? List some reference then? How about your qualifications? Your experience in the field?
Just going to assume the obvious here. You don't have any. Just another elitist, entitled keyboard warrior frantically typing away his "facts" and "theories" that are based on absolutely nothing but what will get him upvotes from random circlejerkers on forums
i'll patiently be awaiting your attempt at a rebuttle using any actual factual information or credible sources
"MUH DOTA!!!!! MUUUUUUHHHH DOOOOTTTTTAAAAAAAAAA" 
Learnding6 votesI have never seen such an obvious troll. Fuck it, I'll bite one more time
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Don't believe me? How about we ask an industry expert what he thinks about Riot?
He goes on to say:
"My conclusion was that League of Legends gives too much away for free and it doesn't sell power. Riot could sell exclusive premium champions - they could, but there would be a Riot in the customer-base...*** If they let me change League of Legends I could double its revenue, and they could afford to lose 60 per cent of the customer-base and still do twice as much money.***"
"This is my key recommendation here: League of Legends is an exception. It should not be a role model for your monetisation system... You shouldn't look at League of Legends if you want to learn about good monetisation. Riot can afford it. You might not."
So tell me more about this money mongering RIOT games that give nothing to the community. RIOT gives **MILLIONS ** in potential profit away to its fans every day yet all it gets is angsty teenagers bitching up a storm about the game RIOT gave them for free. Want to refute the industry expert's points? List some reference then? How about your qualifications? Your experience in the field?
Just going to assume the obvious here. You don't have any. Just another elitist, entitled keyboard warrior frantically typing away his "facts" and "theories" that are based on absolutely nothing but what will get him upvotes from random circlejerkers on forums
i'll patiently be awaiting your attempt at a rebuttle using any actual factual information or credible sources
"MUH DOTA!!!!! MUUUUUUHHHH DOOOOTTTTTAAAAAAAAAA"
So you took a factual excerpt from a company that also has proven on many a basis that they are in the business for a easy cash grab. "Lets use a video from Ubisoft to clearly justify my invalid incoherent point on how Riot gives out millions of dollars of free IP boosts and skins that are a different color". Like do you even watch anything to do with gaming culture, or have you been under a Dwayne Johnson for the past decade? Like I read the first two sentences on how you actually think Ubisoft is this shining example of a great company. They literally created the biggest bomb for a gaming series to date. They put a review embargo on all Professional reviews to ship a known shippable, because they clearly knew the game was defective.
"Lets use Ubisoft as a comparison on how a company should be doing business".
Let me +1 your clearly failed rhetoric. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0
Eedat3 votesAnd there we have it. No credible information. No credentials. No sources to list.
The only rebuttle you have is "LULZ NO YOU'RE WRONG" before throwing the exact insult I used back at me. You're argument is literally down to "I AM RUBBER, YOU ARE GLUE!"
Back under your bridge troll. And please, not the bridge in the Howling Abyss. There has to be a bridge somewhere in MUH DOOOTTAAAAA that you can crawl under. Have at it.
Learnding5 votesAnd there we have it. No credible information. No credentials. No sources to list.
The only rebuttle you have is "LULZ NO YOU'RE WRONG" before throwing the exact insult I used back at me. You're argument is literally down to "I AM RUBBER, YOU ARE GLUE!"
Back under your bridge troll. And please, not the bridge in the Howling Abyss. There has to be a bridge somewhere in MUH DOOOTTAAAAA that you can crawl under. Have at it.
http://www.giantbomb.com/forums/assassin-s-creed-unity-639664/ubisoft-s-being-surprisingly-honest-about-unity-s--1499892/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gavcvi19q1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgpzT5V5Mgs http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.865244-Ubisoft-Posts-Laundry-List-of-Assassins-Creed-Unity-Issues?page=1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Di6K0x_GC3s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVeVL5X9Feg http://www.joystiq.com/2014/11/26/assassins-creed-unity-ceo-apologizes-for-bugs-offers-free-dlc/ http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sica1s http://www.engadget.com/2014/11/24/broken-video-games/
I hope that long list of information towards the Known Shippable AC:Unity can help you, because your little walnut sized brain cannot simply Google search.
"hurr durr, i dunt even know what known shippable means, cuz i ramble on how my credible source was 1 guy explaining how u shuld charge everything to make more money"
Eedat3 votesOk here we go. You mentioned Bethesda as a company that "Riot should be taking notes from". Lets take a peak at the history of Bethesda using its deep pockets to bully lesser companies for complete bullshit reasons
http://www.forbes.com/sites/alexknapp/2012/03/16/bethesda-and-mojang-settle-scrolls-lawsuit/
Bethesda sues Majong literally for using the word "scrolls". Literally for using a single English word
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/bethesda-legal-team-pressures-fortress-fallout-dev/1100-6425334/
Bethesda sues indie game developer Xreal for using the word "fallout" in one of their upcoming games. Again, literally for using a single English word
http://www.destructoid.com/interplay-bethesda-s-fallout-mmo-lawsuit-is-absurd-191299.phtml
and who can forget the ongoing bullshit lawsuit over the Fallout MMO where Bethsda licenced the Fallout brand to Interplay, then immediately turned around and said "no no no, we only licensed the name and not any of the actual content."
The list goes on and on. They're not known for being the most litigious game dev company for no reason.
So using your logic, Riot should use its deep pockets to start bullying around the game devlopement world because Bethesda is apparently such a poster child. That sounds like a fantastic idea to me! Take notes Riot please
dunder kill5 votesBethesda really is a horrible role model for business ethics. The quality of their games has gone down drastically over time as well.
Morrowind > Oblivion > Skyrim
Skyrim was dumbed down beyond belief.
Caustic Crusader11 votesCan't wait for Rito to pop into this thread and begin a serious discussion regarding the many mistakes explained in this list, given that they obviously listen and care and, you know, don't completely ignore their customers.
Dr Easter10 votesWell... the camera people asked http://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2h4lrp/semi_locked_camera_request/ See how poor what Riot did is, how good it should be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUn2vhPlQuc And people asked here in the boards and also in the PBE for Riot NOT to release the camera as it is now. But as many times when they have a chance to do something right they look like have pleasure in messing it all. Let's not talk about abandoned alternative modes...
Graidon8 votesMy favorite part is how half of the people complaining about Riot, INCLUDING the OP.....have the DJ Sona icon.
Clearly Riot is so evil and bad and oh so yucky in not listening to the community that you took a stand and chose not to buy....wait.
Sweetie Brella4 votesI can't stay mad at Sona for what Riot did (even to her)
Also, I bought the RP before Riot decided to see how many champions they could drive off a cliff with one patch.
I don't honestly think Riot is evil or bad, I just think they're going about all this the wrong way. They should iterate on their changes more and perhaps try to get better data, when instead they're just throwing rudimentary fixes at the wall and seeing what sticks. I expect better from them.
Zuphlas7 votesThis list is a bit short
Audiomancy14 votes
: Is that...a SHORT JOKE?!
SmokingPuffin6 votesThere was a chance for this idea to be constructive, but your statements are just too biased to facilitate a useful conversation.
Sweetie Brella13 votesYou're probably right, but honestly if Riot were willing to listen to reason or at this very least justify their more controversial decisions, threads like this wouldn't exist at all.
This is as much an expression of exasperation of Riot's attitude as anything else. If I believed being more objective would help, I would have made more effort to do so. As it is, I still have yet to receive any satisfactory arguments for my main points of contention.
SmokingPuffin8 votesIf I take your four points in turn:
**Jungle diversity **-- Look at the PBE changes. Riot is working on jungle tank viability right now. The problem we've had here is that Riot's design staff is looking at the long term vision and locking in the changes they know are eventually needed. They haven't been thinking much about what that does to the game in the short term. I think they now recognize that is a problem and will be changing their rollout strategy for these kinds of things.
Cass rework -- This was an impossible design problem to solve. Cass had two half-kits and neither worked well. On the one side, you had the poison mage that poked well, and on the other side you had the snakebite spam mage that was good for allins. You can't actually be good at both of those things in the same kit and have it be healthy. Riot was always going to have to choose one or the other, and either way they went, a big chunk of Cass players were going to be upset.
Veigar rework -- Same basic problem as the jungle changes. Riot knew that anything they were going to do with him was going to involve nerfing E, because it's an ult on a 14 second cooldown. They didn't know how much else they'd have to add to make him balanced after. So they decided to release him to live with the nerfed E. They underestimated how pissed off we would be about the crazy insane levels of broken he is now; I think from their perspective, he was already broken, and having him be more broken for a patch or two wasn't expected to be a big deal.
Lore -- This one basically comes down to a lack of trust in the story and art department. Once bitten, twice shy and all that. That's not unreasonable given the past here. However, you have to understand that the constraints of backward compatibility were a big reason why lore was getting so bogged down.
Many of the champion designs and stories they wanted to tell were incompatible with the old lore -- for example, why in the world would Yasuo join the League? Yet obviously they wanted to make Yasuo, because his spaghetti western sort of archetype is awesome. So, they decided to just break with the lore, because it was hindering them more than it was helping them tell the stories they want to tell.
Audiomancy8 votesJust regarding the Cass rework, why did they feel she had to be changed at all? What was wrong with her playstyle of poking until you have an opportunity to strike? Why did they have to make her into an all-in, button-mashing DPS bruiser...thing?
As for Veigar, they really should've known better than to release him as he was. Even though several Veigar players made countless threads detailing what was wrong with the rework and what should have been done instead, Riot decided to ignore all feedback on the subject and go ahead with it anyway. That's the worst part. The fact that they were told so many times that what they were doing wasn't right for the champion and they just cast everyone's opinions to the side and pretended that they knew better.
SmokingPuffin4 votesJust regarding the Cass rework, why did they feel she had to be changed at all? What was wrong with her playstyle of poking until you have an opportunity to strike? Why did they have to make her into an all-in, button-mashing DPS bruiser...thing?
The basic problem with Old Cass is that opposing laners are in a no-win situation. She's good at poking. She's good at all-ins. She's good at defending herself from your all-ins. The tradeoff for this with Old Cass is that she's awful outside of lane. This sort of play pattern isn't healthy for the game.
With New Cass, the laning pattern is clear. You get hit by poison, you back the hell off. She misses poison, that's your opportunity to go aggro. Both long-range and short-range champions have windows to make hay against her.
I don't think bruiser is the right description. I think she is now an AP ADC.
As for Veigar, they really should've known better than to release him as he was.
I'm 99.9% sure that Riot knew they were releasing a terrible Veigar. What I don't think they knew is how terrible he was -- was he a 45%, 40%, or 35% win rate sort of champion? The last time they tried to do this thing, they made Ahri, and they way overshot on power level. Way overshooting is much worse for the game than way undershooting, so this time they just aimed low enough that overshooting wasn't possible.
Audiomancy5 votesI never saw an issue with Old Cass. She was very vulnerable to poke (unlike new Cass with her E Heal) and had very specific opportunities for counterplay. If you let her take your health down low enough to the point where she could finish you off, that was nobody's fault but your own. Even her ult is literally countered by right clicking away from her. The laning pattern for New Cass is exactly the same as the old one except NC lands poison and hopes that her numbers are high enough to finish you off. Her idea of poke is 'land poison > EEEEEE'. It's not fun, nor is it healthy.
SmokingPuffin6 votesI never saw an issue with Old Cass. She was very vulnerable to poke (unlike new Cass with her E Heal) and had very specific opportunities for counterplay.
Very few champions could poke with Old Cass Q. 80% AP ratio on 3 seconds cooldown at 925 range. That's a better poke than Syndra had (60%, 4s, 900), and Syndra got nerfed pretty hard for having it.
Even her ult is literally countered by right clicking away from her.
Cass R was the healthiest part of her kit. No coincidence that's unchanged from the previous design.
The laning pattern for New Cass is exactly the same as the old one except NC lands poison and hopes that her numbers are high enough to finish you off.
If you're laned New Cass like you laned Old Cass, you're doing it wrong. Just a few examples of what is a really significant playstyle change:
Her idea of poke is 'land poison > EEEEEE'. It's not fun, nor is it healthy.
Fun is subjective. Clearly lots of people dislike New Cass. New Cass is considerably healthier than Old Cass, though.
chumbler6 votesVery few champions could poke with Old Cass Q. 80% AP ratio on 3 seconds cooldown at 925 range. That's a better poke than Syndra had (60%, 4s, 900), and Syndra got nerfed pretty hard for having it.
Cass R was the healthiest part of her kit. No coincidence that's unchanged from the previous design.
If you're laned New Cass like you laned Old Cass, you're doing it wrong. Just a few examples of what is a really significant playstyle change:
- Old Cass often pressed Q with no real intention of following up with E. Some players even maxed Q first and played her as a poke mage.
- New Cass often last hits with E, and is rewarded for doing so with additional mana
- New Cass thinks QEEQ is a really good trading pattern. Old Cass thinks that's pretty silly.
Fun is subjective. Clearly lots of people dislike New Cass. New Cass is considerably healthier than Old Cass, though.
Oh look, you again sucking up to Riot. Pro tip: Riot doesn't know a fucking thing about game health, and parroting anything they say regarding it makes you an idiot as well. There is nothing "healthy" about a champion who had a lot of clear counterplay and had to work around real limitations getting gutted and transformed into complete dependence on one skill with trivialized resource management except when she actually needs the mana, which shoehorns her into a strict build on top of how she's already being forced into a strict build by her complete joke of a passive. The Cass rework was utter trash and anyone with half a brain knows it. Riot just threw numbers at it until the idiots shut up and then nerfed her from that for literally the exact thing they claimed to be fixing.
There was nothing intelligent or well designed about the Cass rework, period, and her current state is far less balanceable and way worse for game health unless you use Riot's definition of game health meaning only their favorites get played.
MidEvilKnight3k5 votesI am sure glad you aren't the one doing reworks.
Your "admit Riot is stupid and I am right" attitude is amusing. You should actually try reading where Riot talks about what they believe is healthy before you say that their vision is wrong or they missed the mark. Once you know why they are doing what they are doing you may a) agree with them, or more likely b) actually have a basis for real arguments.
As a small hint, having only one viable build does not make a champion unhealthy, although I would agree that it is not ideal.
chumbler5 votesI am sure glad you aren't the one doing reworks.
Your "admit Riot is stupid and I am right" attitude is amusing. You should actually try reading where Riot talks about what they believe is healthy before you say that their vision is wrong or they missed the mark. Once you know why they are doing what they are doing you may a) agree with them, or more likely b) actually have a basis for real arguments.
As a small hint, having only one viable build does not make a champion unhealthy, although I would agree that it is not ideal.
I do read what they post about game health, and it is both stupid and wrong and, when rarely not wrong, they are lying about what they actually intend to do. Evidence: What they actually do.
Señor Karthus4 votesTo be fair, they are buffing tank junglers a lot in next patch. Cassio is a more viable champion now (even if I agree she lost her essence) and I couldn't care less about the lore in LoL. What they did with Veigar is unforgivable though.
Caustic Crusader17 votesAs a former Cass main, Cass' rework made her viable only because they buffed the fuck out of her when they saw that her performance was like a 44% win rate. It also sucked any enjoyment from her previous style of play, both as and against, and funneled her kit into one ability, which is boring as fuck to use and was already complained about as the least fitting thing about her in the first place.
Audiomancy5 votesAmen.