Just reduce the gold generation on Coin instead of the mana regen

Rins Thigh Socks·Oct 10, 2017·23 votes·1,029 views

Coin is a passive support item

that gets earns more gold than the items that encourage active play

this means they get items significantly faster than other supports

which ramps up adcs much faster, which, combined with Relic and/or Doran's Shield (on the adc), bypasses the laning phase into a good lategame

and adcs who have that much of an impact need a support that stays on them at all times, i.e. a utility support. In other words, it's an issue that feeds into itself.

I guarantee you all you'd have to do is touch the gold gen and you won't have to butcher the item until the mana coins return 15 mana at all points of the game just for it to be balanced.

29 Comments

DunkinNoobsOct 11, 20175 votes

They really, really don't want to nerf the gold generation for some reason.

SnakDatSmilesBakOct 11, 20172 votes

It's called coin, it makes sense to me that it's the best in terms of making coin. Now if the other two support items were reworked to be stronger in combat, then that might solve issues imo.

SpecterVonBarenOct 11, 20173 votes

Are we forgetting when it had the worst gold gen?

DunkinNoobsOct 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Are we forgetting when it had the worst gold gen?

I remember when the game was better, yes.

Zane ZephyrOct 11, 20174 votes

I think the gold should be something like 15/25/40, I think that would be a little bit better than it's current form without it being complete crap.

It kind of upsets me that there's cases like when I was playing brand support and I threw my W on their red buff bush before the minions spawned and got my procs off with spellthief's and thresh comes back to lane and has the same amount of gold as I do not even a minute later with zero effort and I constantly poked them and got my procs off every chance I got (playing against a jhin and thresh) and we dominated the lane but thresh got more gold than me during laning purely because he had a coin

AirKingNeoOct 10, 20173 votes

but that would be logical

AbibyamaOct 11, 20172 votes

Scarra said that you shouldn’t be gaining so much more gold by doing nothing and collecting coins

NiaphimOct 11, 20172 votes

The problem is the max range from which you can pick coins. It is so huge that it might as well not exist. I'd personally like it to be reduced significantly (basically to melee range). Right now the risk component in collecting coins is almost non-existent.

SuperCosmicHoboOct 10, 20171 votes

But... You can't get a relic shield if you got a coin...

Rins Thigh SocksOct 10, 20172 votes

{quoted}

But... You can't get a relic shield if you got a coin...

No the ADC gets Relic to bolster how quickly the support gets their items. It's a strategy used in high elo KR and competitive play.

SuperCosmicHoboOct 11, 20171 votes

If you say it like that, it's a different story.

Rins Thigh SocksOct 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

If you say it like that, it's a different story.

It's what I call the Reddit effect.

It's such common knowledge sometimes you (being me) forget people don't use Reddit or watch these competitive games and so they don't actually know these things.

SuperCosmicHoboOct 11, 20171 votes

I know that tactic since it came out. I just though ye meant two coin generating items on one champ.

NymzoOct 11, 20171 votes

The problem is that Coin is SUPPOSED to give more gold. It's the whole point of this item since it gives the worst stat out of 3.

It's not how much it gives, it's how you get the gold.

Rins Thigh SocksOct 11, 20178 votes

{quoted}

The problem is that Coin is SUPPOSED to give more gold. It's the whole point of this item since it gives the worst stat out of 3.

It's not how much it gives, it's how you get the gold.

No, it is an item designed for passive play and as such, it shouldn't give that much gold. It should give regenerative stats primarily because it's supposed to help you turtle to your powerspike because you'll be stronger than them once you finally hit said powerspike.

Letting you hit your powerspike before they hit theirs is just a silly concept. Especially if you play like a bitch all game until that point.

NymzoOct 11, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Lover Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TE7wuh9E,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2017-10-11T06:01:11.370+0000)

No, it is an item designed for passive play and as such, it shouldn't give that much gold.

Where did Riot even said it's suppose to be an item for passif supports? Or did you assume this because of Coin's old self?

Because if you look what Riot said:

Ancient Coin’s mana restore is meant to allow supports to use their abilities frequently, provided they’re willing to risk walking into the minion wave to pick up their coins. Odd as it sounds, Coin’s mana restore is so generous it’s disincentivizing supports from taking the intended risks.

At what point in this post do you see an item that tell you to play passif with it? Because Riot is clearely going for the opposite.

It should give regenerative stats primarily because it's supposed to help you turtle to your powerspike because you'll be stronger than them once you finally hit said powerspike.

... It can give stats of course but really weak ones since it's SUPPOSED to be a risk to buy this item in the first place.

Again, found me when Riot said it should be an item for turtling.

Letting you hit your powerspike before they hit theirs is just a silly concept. Especially if you play like a bitch all game until that point.

...Yes which is why it should be a RISK to buy this item. If you could, in any sort of way or form, prevent them from getting gold so easely, I could guarantee this item would be balance.

CatastropOct 11, 20173 votes

{quoted}

At what point in this post do you see an item that tell you to play passif with it? Because Riot is clearely going for the opposite.

Because the playerbase has always played the game to Riot's intended design right? The myriad of tank assassins and niche bs like Muramana Syndra say Hi.

Riot may not have meant for Coin to be a passive item, but it is. Coin supports will just sit in the lane barely graze the coin collect range to get their gold, they're in no way "walking into the minion wave to pick up their coin" because the collect radius is pretty generous for something Riot seems to think has risk.

XenomancersOct 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Because the playerbase has always played the game to Riot's intended design right? The myriad of tank assassins and niche bs like Muramana Syndra say Hi.

Riot may not have meant for Coin to be a passive item, but it is. Coin supports will just sit in the lane barely graze the coin collect range to get their gold, they're in no way "walking into the minion wave to pick up their coin" because the collect radius is pretty generous for something Riot seems to think has risk.

The level 2 range is much higher than the level 1. You can really punish the level 1 coin. I do it constantly on Sona. Usually I am rewarded with a kill. It's harder to zone the level 2 coin but you can totally do it if you have a lead. This is about game knowledge. I would have been totally okay with them nerfing the collect range - that seems reasonable.

NymzoOct 11, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Riot may not have meant for Coin to be a passive item, but it is. Coin supports will just sit in the lane barely graze the coin collect range to get their gold, they're in no way "walking into the minion wave to pick up their coin" because the collect radius is pretty generous for something Riot seems to think has risk.

That's what I'm saying: the main goal was to be a risky item but the general designed of both incarnations madeit the exact opposite.

Changing the way it makes gold or at least nerfing the radius that allow us to collect the coins would prevent that from happening but eh, you and at least two others people seem to not have enough of broken and uninteractive coin just yet.

Or you think nerfing the gold will balance the item when in reality, it will just be pushed aside for item 3303 since Janna and Soraka can actually use it (and it got buffed twice).

Rins Thigh SocksOct 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Where did Riot even said it's suppose to be an item for passif supports? Or did you assume this because of Coin's old self?

Because if you look what Riot said:

At what point in this post do you see an item that tell you to play passif with it? Because Riot is clearely going for the opposite.

... It can give stats of course but really weak ones since it's SUPPOSED to be a risk to buy this item in the first place.

Again, found me when Riot said it should be an item for turtling.

...Yes which is why it should be a RISK to buy this item. If you could, in any sort of way or form, prevent them from getting gold so easely, I could guarantee this item would be balance.

Riot doesn't determine what an item does. The stats it's given determine what it does. Then, you look at the target audience and determine from where the item should go. Since Relic is clearly intended for melee supports, and Spellthief's is designed to encourage poking in lane, that leaves one item and that's Coin. Coin is being used in strats where you passively push/shove and then pick up coins and rinse and repeat. It is very clearly being used in conjunction with shields, heals, and lane staying power. This, combined with the fact that most of these supports (Soraka, Janna, etc.) are much better late-game due to how they interact with their ADC (as opposed to having a support like Zyra), lends to a far more passive playstyle. Thus, it is the passive support item.

Riot is nerfing it not because it's passive but because it's TOO passive that it decentivizes gameplay. The problem is that the mana regen isn't what's primarily decentivizing gameplay. What does decentivize it is the rapidity at which a support gets Ardent Censer and allows the ADC to 1v2 the lane.

We can solve this, and bring back Spellthief supports, by nerfing the gold generation, so that champions whose primary focus in lane is farming up and carrying don't have quicker powerspikes than their early-game bullying counterparts.

Imagine this; if both junglers come bot and you have a Twitch with a BotRK vs. a Draven with a BF Sword, who will win? I can almost guarantee at equal skill it will be the Twitch. And because he has this lead he can extend it and Draven will fall behind, even at one item.

That's essentially what Coin users are doing. The only reasonable responses to this being to either reduce the range at which they can pick up the coins or to nerf the gold so that they're not getting more than champions that are going aggro or at least in poke range in lane.

Because frankly, it's pretty easy to manage mana, and unless they make the regen on it nigh nonexistent, you're going to find plenty of reason to use it since high elo players have a far easier time managing mana.

NymzoOct 11, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Lover Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TE7wuh9E,comment-id=0003000000000001,timestamp=2017-10-11T15:23:42.890+0000)

Riot doesn't determine what an item does. The stats it's given determine what it does.

No, there's also the design of the item in mind and Riot are the one who make items. You can give as much stats as you want on one item but if that item has a shit design, it will probably not end up following whatever design they had in mind. And Riot clearly has a specific design for coin that is not what it is right now.

So indirectly, they CAN decide how an item can be used but they just need to do their job proprely (which they didn't with coin).

Then, you look at the target audience and determine from where the item should go. Since Relic is clearly intended for melee supports, and Spellthief's is designed to encourage poking in lane, that leaves one item and that's Coin. Coin is being used in strats where you passively push/shove and then pick up coins and rinse and repeat. It is very clearly being used in conjunction with shields, heals, and lane staying power. This, combined with the fact that most of these supports (Soraka, Janna, etc.) are much better late-game due to how they interact with their ADC (as opposed to having a support like Zyra), lends to a far more passive playstyle. Thus, it is the passive support item.

Again, make a change of design and suddently it won't be possible.

Let's give an example of a redesign that I thought for coin, it may be really bad but that's not the point that I want to point out:

Ancient Coin still gives more gold out of the 3 support items, coins collected are not converted into gold directly. In order to do that, you need to get a takedown (kill or assist, probably assits since I see solo laners abusing this but whatever) for the coins to be converted into gold (basically some kind of Draven's passif for supports if you want).

Now, do you still think in this situation, a passive support like Janna or Soraka could manage to buy this item? In my opinion they could, but they would need either a very agressive adc like Draven himself or junglers for ganks.

Riot is nerfing it not because it's passive but because it's TOO passive that it decentivizes gameplay. The problem is that the mana regen isn't what's primarily decentivizing gameplay. What does decentivize it is the rapidity at which a support gets Ardent Censer and allows the ADC to 1v2 the lane.

Which again, could be prevented if the way someone makes gold could be prevented/slowed in any ways...

We can solve this, and bring back Spellthief supports, by nerfing the gold generation, so that champions whose primary focus in lane is farming up and carrying don't have quicker powerspikes than their early-game bullying counterparts.

With the double buffs that Spellthief had, you just gonna make Ancient Coin extincts if this nerf goes through.

Imagine this; if both junglers come bot and you have a Twitch with a BotRK vs. a Draven with a BF Sword, who will win? I can almost guarantee at equal skill it will be the Twitch. And because he has this lead he can extend it and Draven will fall behind, even at one item.

That's an entire issue that you are talking about right here: you are talking about Adc itemisation being cheap that allow them to get their ''late game'' more earlier.

Also yes Draven will fall behind... that's the whole point of this champ: snowballed or be snowballed on, this champion is a gamble to play.

That's essentially what Coin users are doing. The only reasonable responses to this being to either reduce the range at which they can pick up the coins or to nerf the gold so that they're not getting more than champions that are going aggro or at least in poke range in lane.

For me, the two other items have some kind of risk to get the gold.

A good nerf would be that you have to literally step on the coin to get the gold. Only then would I consider the item balance since it has a clear risk.

Nerfing the gold doesn't remove the lack of risk, you are only delaying the inevitable by a few minutes at best.

Because frankly, it's pretty easy to manage mana, and unless they make the regen on it nigh nonexistent, you're going to find plenty of reason to use it since high elo players have a far easier time managing mana.

Tbh, we alrady have Meditation. I see no point in mana coins in the first place.

SnakDatSmilesBakOct 11, 20171 votes

I agree with this. I think coin is fine but the other support items should be reworked.

YuGiHoOct 11, 20171 votes

why would supports care about an items stats when it can jive them the most gold to buy other items. the coin fixes supports worst and longest running issue and thats gold income

NymzoOct 11, 20171 votes

{quoted}

why would supports care about an items stats when it can jive them the most gold to buy other items. the coin fixes supports worst and longest running issue and thats gold income

Why would you care about stats?

Coin neither gives ap or health, by far importants stat for enchanters and ap ''supports'' or catchers and warden respectively.

Let's say for example you go in lane as a warden with vs a Draven and any kind of all-in support that you want.

If you bought item 3301 , yes you will have a better income but you are a greater risk of getting slaughtered by Draven when they will all-in.

But if you bought item 3302 , the extra health can help you survive or turn the fight around and relic still gives you a nice income.

That's just an example but I hope you get the point.

YuGiHoOct 11, 20171 votes

When i take Coin as a support botlane i know im not going to win any fights. so long as you play passive and focus on defense the lane should conclude without casuistry on either side till you complete censor. When you get censor you win, playing bot as janna/lulu/rakan is really that simple.

you dont need the stats if your item choice puts your opponent on a clock to lose

It Hertz When IPOct 11, 20171 votes

Other way around. Coin is supposed to give the LEAST gold, because it involves the least interaction out of all of them.

And that's how it worked until Riot reworked it to involve picking up dropped coins, which they thought would be harder than it actually ended up being, and buffed gold gain accordingly.

CatastropOct 11, 20171 votes

I was so confused about this nerf, the mana regen is perfectly fine as it helps to sustain the passive playstyle of the champions who would even buy coin in the first place. All this does is make it so that some of them might actually run OOM(not like this wasn't happening already), but that won't matter because they're still getting close to a laner's amount in gold.

YuGiHoOct 11, 20171 votes

will they run oom? or will they rush towards their items that involve a item 3114 faster than anyone else?