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I really wish Riot wouldn't change Abyssal Scepter.

Rins Thigh Socks··52 votes·3,475 views

Honestly, it had a good niche on a few AP mids (such as Vladimir, Ahri, Lissandra, Cassiopeia, Viktor, and Diana).

Basically, it allowed the champions with shorter ranges to survive getting poked constantly by heavy all ins with higher range while still being able to deal respectable damage themselves.

Now it's getting gutted (for mages only) to fit AP bruisers. Vlad could still probably use it (he'll probably want Visage if he needs MR or simply another high damage item). Rumble will likely love it. Amumu, Sejuani, and Cho'Gath won't get enough for it.

and all mages will get for MR is Athene's or being forced to go out of their way to buy a Banshee's.

Like, I understand that we're really short on MR items but do we really have to shaft one niche class to help another that frankly doesn't need anything short of nerfs right now? All 5 of the AP bruiser/tanks I listed are in a very good spot at the moment. They hardly need the upgrade in itemization.

64 Comments

LoLKiru16 votes

It was stated we'll be getting a new item to fill the high MR / AP niche that Abyssal Scepter occupied.

Rins Thigh Socks4 votes

{quoted}

It was stated we'll be getting a new item to fill the high MR / AP niche that Abyssal Scepter occupied.

Still, I don't like them waiting a whole patch (or perhaps longer) to fix something that could completely be avoided.

Like, it was ok when they did it with DFG because that was a pretty low counterplay item that wasn't needed in the slightest.

The problem with changing Abyssal is In certain matchups, you either get Abyssal Scepter or you lose lane. Hard.

Ever played (insert short ranged mage) vs. Annie? LeBlanc? it's disgusting.

LoLKiru5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Lover Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dLWds2Es,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-05-16T18:42:30.981+0000)

Still, I don't like them waiting a whole patch (or perhaps longer) to fix something that could completely be avoided.

Like, it was ok when they did it with DFG because that was a pretty low counterplay item that wasn't needed in the slightest.

The problem with changing Abyssal is In certain matchups, you either get Abyssal Scepter or you lose lane. Hard.

Ever played (insert short ranged mage) vs. Annie? LeBlanc? it's disgusting.

Completely understandable, it should be noted that the abyssal changes won't hit live in 5.10; so its possible we'll see them hit live in the same patch as the new MR/AP item (which is easily the best case scenario).

Wheatloaf1 votes

They did in fact state that their best-case scenario is being able to release both at the same time.

kagepaladin1 votes

I main mordekaiser and that is almost a key build item depending on if enemy adc get's alot of kills. normally i build linandry's sorc boots w/homegaurd will of the ancients abby scepter luden's echo and rabadans.

Rins Thigh Socks1 votes

{quoted}

I main mordekaiser and that is almost a key build item depending on if enemy adc get's alot of kills. normally i build linandry's sorc boots w/homegaurd will of the ancients abby scepter luden's echo and rabadans.

Try Boots, Gunblade, Rabadon's, Void Staff, Luden's, and one other item (perhaps your Liandry's or Zhonya's or Abyssal) if you want a glass cannon build. The only one of those items you can really replace is Luden's because it's more situational.

Also, if you want a tankier build with him, Abyssal + Liandry's + perhaps a Rylai's, Void, and Rabadon's will be good on the Abyssal patch.

kagepaladin1 votes

if i were to go tanky linandrys sorc boots wota thornmail+warmogs or thornmail+ spirit visage (normally visage) with a rabadans. i find it gives me some good balance. also my first starting out morde build was linandrys sorc boots void staff abby scepter rylais and rabadans. also we need to rename glass cannon morde because of his passive XD. also the reason why i build luden's is because it proc's on mordekaiser w when i throw it on a minion and walk it into the enemy team. Did i mention i play morde top? lol

Rins Thigh Socks1 votes

{quoted}

if i were to go tanky linandrys sorc boots wota thornmail+warmogs or thornmail+ spirit visage (normally visage) with a rabadans. i find it gives me some good balance. also my first starting out morde build was linandrys sorc boots void staff abby scepter rylais and rabadans. also we need to rename glass cannon morde because of his passive XD. also the reason why i build luden's is because it proc's on mordekaiser w when i throw it on a minion and walk it into the enemy team. Did i mention i play morde top? lol

No you didn't.

If you're going Morde top, I'd suggest a little tankiness as you're sacrificing a tank to go top so at least be nice enough to make up for it, ya know? That's what I do.

Then again I play Vlad top so my glass cannon is tanky without trying...

ANYWAYS, I'm not saying Liandry's, Abyssal, Rylai's, Void, and Gunblade is strong now. I'm saying it will be likely be next patch.

AFK Push1 votes

If you're going top Mord and need some extra tank/utility to make yourself useful if not ridiculously fed a item 3143 or item 3116 are both good last items for some "peeling." Only get randuins if you actually need to be tankier, because you are doing bad and their adc is fed as shit.

kagepaladin1 votes

i always went the super violent route when tanking with the aforementioned thornmail+warmog's since if i flashed into team i could easily 1v1 the adc with the combination of my abilities and my r giving me more time for my abilities to go off cd. ( dont use flash anymore though i use tp now) also not saying a fed adc is always a guarantee but i have seen ashe alot (my team and enemy team) and it seemed every time i saw one the enemy team's ashe was all really good and kicked our arse's lol.

AFK Push1 votes

not gonna lie, and I'm basing this off of your 3 games on mord in ranked but you are dying a lot which might be because you are rushing a thornmail instead of another AP item etc. You don't need items like item 3075 item 3083 on him, he already can't be bursted by the nature of his passive and with enough damage and cdr you can 1v1 anyone in the game.

kagepaladin1 votes

well their is a reason i don't play ranked, A: i don't know how to jungle even though i play 2 jungle AP Mages, and B: i can play ADC but my CS is absolutely horrible i'm basing my knowledge off of the 300+ summoner rift games i've played with mordekaiser since teambuilder came out. Also morde can't 1v1 anyone he wants to i've learned that the hard way trying to fight a hecarim XD, at least early game that is.

AFK Push1 votes

{quoted}

well their is a reason i don't play ranked, A: i don't know how to jungle even though i play 2 jungle AP Mages, and B: i can play ADC but my CS is absolutely horrible i'm basing my knowledge off of the 300+ summoner rift games i've played with mordekaiser since teambuilder came out. Also morde can't 1v1 anyone he wants to i've learned that the hard way trying to fight a hecarim XD, at least early game that is.

Early game hecarim is nothing but helicopter Q's you should be able to harass him with tons of E's for free. Mord can 1v1 nearly anyone considering his kit just makes him really hard to play against, he is even known to 1v2 when the enemy jungler ganks and you turn it around by killing one of them with ult etc.

kagepaladin1 votes

and i meant when hecarim ganks at level 6 is where my issue layed with him but i havent seen hecarim jungle in a few months so thats aside the point. also before tank meta i could ask the enemy jungler to gank so i could get a double, i know because it worked a few times XD.

AFK Push1 votes

{quoted}

and i meant when hecarim ganks at level 6 is where my issue layed with him but i havent seen hecarim jungle in a few months so thats aside the point. also before tank meta i could ask the enemy jungler to gank so i could get a double, i know because it worked a few times XD.

The tank meta has nothing to do with junglers never ganking top, it was the preseason changes to dragon like 4.20 or 4.21 whichever it was.

kagepaladin1 votes

I'm not complaining about my junler's ganking top normally my lane is so far pushed that they can't do anything, I meant as in me not seeing hecarim i just have not seen him in any recent games and by enemy ganking top I used to be able to ask now with tank meta i am a much more cautions person.

ABlueQuaker2 votes

I play a lot of AP Bruiser Mordekaiser Top and I give zero f*cks about this change to Abyssal. In fact, it's a pretty hefty buff to him.

Nilok1 votes

Then they should call that item Abyssal Scepter and call the thing on the PBE something new or retire the name 'Abyssal Scepter' all together.

Sohleks5 votes

I suspect Abyssal's being changed because the extra durability combination with the instant 20 flat teamwide magic pen... what I'm trying to say is the extra burst against squishies provided by the pen was huge coming from an item with defensive stats as well. Quite a powerful item; I really liked it for my Fizz and will miss it. Can't imagine what kind of AP/MR item can fill the void for AP picks with a need for extra durability.

Solidair33 votes

I like the change. What I don't like is their "do we need a replacement ap/MR item?" Mentality.

Yes riot. You do. Zhonya's is the only armor item, at least get us one Mr item

UPfreely3 votes

guess who i'm building the new abyssal on Garen

Worst Mid Ever3 votes

i dont get why they would even bother changing it, it isn't a strong or weak item and is crucial in certain matchups like vs leblanc because you can just buy the raw MR to survive without wasting gold on the mana regen that comes with chalice, and the counterplay has always been to outpush that champion because you probably went codex then roam bot lane and they can't really follow effectively because they have no offensive stats

on the other hand i dont even want athenes if i need magic resist, its more cost effective to just get a null-magic mantle then go morellos if i want cdr and regen with mr, and turn it into mercs later or banshees late game

99% sure this is just some ryze favoritism bs, riot loves to ruin mid lane and ap itemization in general just to buff him

kagepaladin1 votes

well their is a few midlaner's that benefit from the way abby scepter is made since they dont have to waste more gold buying something with useless mana regen when they got none. akali, kennen, mordekaiser, shen (i think).

Migrañaboy2 votes

I guess it's changed because:

-Flat MR reduction is pretty good against squishies. Enables insta delete to AP casters, which is something that Rito is been trying to change. -New item is % based, meaning that it's better against tanks in the long run. -Have an alternative sunfire tool for bruisers to "deal" against AP casters.

I guess that tanks can stack this item and sunfire?

Vistha Kai3 votes

Then Riot should also rework item 3134 item 3142 item 3136 item 3151 item 3020 .

Yes, as for now the effect is unique, but not named. Likely won't have the same passive as Sunfire or Cinderhulk anyway,

kagepaladin1 votes

So new item is % based... sound's like a void staff which lowers by 35%... wombo comba anyone :D.

Migrañaboy1 votes

Yeah, but takes time to reach the same reduction level.

AFK Push2 votes

It could also be stated that ap bruisers in general lack good itemization though. They generally just get pen items like item 3151 item 3020 item 3135 due to bruisers usually having better early/base damages. All of the items like item 3157 and item 3174 etc usually favor the ap carries due to having larger amounts of ap on these items. Another problem is that some of the ap bruisers are manaless making some items like item 3027 bad, this is why I am perfectly fine with abyssal being pushed towards more of an ap bruiser/offtank item. That being said, and the fact that abyssal is an aura item, the person wearing it should be able to stay alive long enough to make use of it for amplifying their damage and the other ap on your team (think item 3071 on ad bruisers). By design this item shouldn't be a go to on manaless ap carries likeKatarina, because it gives so little ap anyways. Giving another mr option for ap carries while giving the abyssal to the people who more appropriately use it is much better imo.

Dengeden2 votes

Not really all that niche. Everything that wasn't Ori or Xerath could build it. While I'm annoyed that I'm going to have to clutter up my inventory if I want more MR after Athene's, I still think it's good that Abyssal is becoming a bruiser item again.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Yeah, Ziggs totally can use Abyssal.

Dengeden1 votes

You know what I mean...

Champion Skin2 votes

Well... instead of reworking Abyssal I guess they could just make a new item... I guess but that would leave the game with more items and more options... and more things that could go wrong or something like that

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

At least wait until you see the new item they come up with before you decide... It could be way better. You have no way of telling yet.

NorthernDruid1 votes

When they release a new item it'll be time to evaluate the new item.

They still haven't fixed the lack of an item with high-AP(100-120+) and CDR.

And if DFG was an example we'll have to wait a few patches for an AP+MR item to come back. And even then there still won't be an alternative for getting more mPen for the mages who can't utilize Liandry's well enough.

Rins Thigh Socks1 votes

{quoted}

When they release a new item it'll be time to evaluate the new item.

They still haven't fixed the lack of an item with high-AP(100-120+) and CDR.

And if DFG was an example we'll have to wait a few patches for an AP+MR item to come back. And even then there still won't be an alternative for getting more mPen for the mages who can't utilize Liandry's well enough.

High AP CDR items aren't necessary.

Just get a Morello's/Athene's and CDR/lvl glyphs. You basically cap out at level 9. (well, you technically cap out at level 18 but if your jungler gives you blues you're at ~33%-40% for the rest of the game).

And let's face it. Before you say, "But I need my MR glyphs." those things are fairly useless. You negate like 6% of the damage your opponent does with them. And they get cancelled out fairly quickly.

The only time MR is really good on an AP is if you rush it. By 3-4 items you have to get Health because your MR is fairly useless.

But that's why I like Abyssal. It gives you a huge chunk of MR early so that you can survive to that many items and sell it for like a Banshee's or Rylai's.

NorthernDruid1 votes

I don't have CDR runes of any kind.

Plenty of AP champions don't have any use for Morellonomicon or Athene's.

And the cheapest source of 15% (which is what I want, to fill out the 5% from offensive masteries) is just shy of 4100 IP

At my current priorities of runes and champions to buy up I might start considering CDR runes over summer.

If I have enough rune pages to make a set including CDR runes.

One of the things that did exist in the game which was removed was an item which gave top tier AP and also gave CDR.

The item was not removed for this reason.

Riot haven't given us another source of high AP and CDR. And whether or not it's needed, it's missing from the game and most sources of CDR are either low CDR or involves mana Regen.

item 3115 is the only item that gives more than 10% CDR which isn't boots or a mana item.

Rock MD1 votes

Damn. This is well written and thought out.

+1

Lauricella31 votes

karthus bro

Freljordan1 votes

I also always get it on Chogath Katarina Rumble as is, the new change sounds cool, but they could just leave abyssal as is and then make that a new item

Cloud Potato1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Lover Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dLWds2Es,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-16T18:34:00.993+0000) Like, I understand that we're really short on MR items

item 3174 item 3060 item 3102 item 3026 item 3190 item 3156 item 3139 item 3222 item 3065 item 3091 item 3512

We aren't short of MR items. Mages do have limited choices in them, but Riot did say that they would look into a new item that fits them better, but we do have 'I need Mana Regen and CDR' and 'I need team support and pushing power' filled out, and AD champions are doing just fine building full tank items instead of damage/tank hybrids.

The Loveless1 votes

it's quite good. The short amount of time it was ready for testing on the pbe, it does a good chunk of damage, plus the health and mr are nice for survival.

Rock MD1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Loveless,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dLWds2Es,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2015-05-17T08:43:09.089+0000)

it's quite good. The short amount of time it was ready for testing on the pbe, it does a good chunk of damage, plus the health and mr are nice for survival.

The problem isn't that it isn't good anymore.

It's simply not good for a specific subset of mages who particularly liked the item.

The Loveless1 votes

But it is. I would still buy it on mages with shorter range than most who are also primarily dps. Also, as many have said, Riot is cooking up another MR/AP item.

Only Play Darius1 votes

Personally I think Katarina is going to get particularly hard. I usually rush item 3001 against AP mids, even moreso now because the HP nerfs means she needs all the damage mitigation she can get. Meanwhile the passive has amazing synergy with death lotus.

Dr Poro1 votes

Ikr, this new sceptre will be awesome for Amumu and Sej who are already pretty strong. I find it pretty strange that they decided to replace a fine item for it rather than making a new one.

I think an AP+Mres item is missing just like an AD+armor item is missing. Maybe this is intentional but it doesn't make much sense for me that there are AD+Mres item 3156 item 3139 and an (awesome) ap+armor item 3157 while the aforementioned aren't there (atleast AP has item 3174 which fits some of them, though.)

However, it's not that big of a deal, though since having atleast one defensive item isn't that bad, especially for ADs. ADCs and APCs do have some trouble finding a good early item that helps them when behind. Other than stacking item 1055 item 1056

ZzEslIolZQ1 votes

What abyssal did was give AP assassins a much easier time then they were suppose to have vs AP mages. The problem right now with the rework is that it's a blatant massive buff in the vein of cinderhulk to AP tanks and really Amumu and Sej need higher win rages they need it.

The Hexmage1 votes

Im feared that now Galio will be better with this, and that means nerfs

BremerdanGorst1 votes

Banner of Command ain't bad if you're worried about long ranged poke.

8 bit planet1 votes

As a Rumble main i'd like to know how the new rework helps him MORE? i'm legitimately curious

Firestartertot1 votes

I feel like it'll still work on ma mumu boi

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