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Being strong early game doesn't mean you outdamage bad early game champions.

Rins Thigh Socks··159 votes·6,790 views

This is a common misconception on Boards. Power or (time in game)-strength is correlated, but not proportional, to raw dps or ease of function.

It's related to priority. Priority is the concept of, "What should we focus on fighting with/against first? Second? Etc."

In the early game, it's all about lane/wave priority. Take Viktor vs. Orianna. Viktor is objectively a stronger early game champion, but at level 3-5 if he gets in a raw DPS competition with Ori he will always lose. So what makes him stronger? It's that he pokes harder and has deadlier followup so you need to be extremely mindful of jungle ganks and the 2v2 fights.

What does Ori do if her jungler ganks? She shields him and then QW's. Then autos if she's close enough. She gets a quarter of your hp down and a small slow and then autos. Viktor will slow->stun you and chunk you for 1/3rd to half of your HP. That's much better for a jungler like Lee Sin to beat you down.

And since he's stronger he has priority in how he wants to manipulate the wave. This is the same way Pantheon is strong. Pantheon is strong early because he's like, "Huh. Right now I have priority and I want to keep this wave as close to the middle as possible." so that it's impossible to trade with him if you jump on his minions and he can freely poke you and force you off cs/exp. Same with Kog. Kog'Maw has almost zero lane priority so it's easy to force him off the wave. It doesn't mean if you get in a fight with him as Lucian you're gonna win, which is what a lot of people here think. It just means you're scarier for him to trade with if you play the matchup correctly.

Mid-game strength is almost always related to push/roam priority. If I'm playing vs. Syndra as Ahri I'm now weaker in lane because I can't push as hard but I can roam better, so I'm usually more of an asset at this point in the game. The exception is if I'm forced off the wave because their jungler ganks and puts pressure on me. But in a vacuum, I'm stronger because I can get to lanes more quickly and provide more deadly followup.

Late-game priority is either splitpush or teamfight oriented. TF is strong late-game because his splitpush is godly and in teamfights he can completely change the way frontliners charge the backline so they don't get kited and he shifts the way the support plays to peel the ADC and how the ADC buys items. Syndra isn't as strong, because she can't access the backline without flanking on an immobile carry and you can buy MR items if she's always going kamikaze so she trades poorly. LeBlanc isn't that strong because she can't stop pushes well and it's easy to stop her teamfight/flank. Vlad is strong because he can run into your backline and sometimes kill all 3 members with impunity.

tl;dr early/mid/late-game champs are so because they force you to play more around them at that point in the game than other champions in their class.

87 Comments

Slythion54 votes

wow...a legitimately well thought out and worded post. This was amazing dude

Rins Thigh Socks25 votes

{quoted}

wow...a legitimately well thought out and worded post. This was amazing dude

Mine usually are, I just haven't mastered the art of clickbait titles. 8)

Aeszarck9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Lover Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zd9bEYJi,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-11-16T20:34:48.315+0000)

Mine usually are, I just haven't mastered the art of clickbait titles. 8)

Don't master it. I appreciate it when a good post doesn't have clickbait.

Jet Sett17 votes

I agree with the general point, but unless the new runes made a major difference (and it's likely they have) Orianna pokes WAY harder than Viktor does early game.

Disembark14 votes

Ori vs Viktor was a bad example as of current. True in Season 6 but now Viktor is much much worse and Ori hasn’t been nerfed much.

Mogarl11 votes

Yeah, but I don't know that

"What does Ori do if her jungler ganks? She shields him and then QW's. Then autos if she's close enough. She gets a quarter of your hp down and a small slow and then autos. Viktor will slow->stun you and chunk you for 1/3rd to half of your HP. That's much better for a jungler like Lee Sin to beat you down."

has ever been true typically if Viktor tries to use gravity field in lane it just scares off the enemy laner (gravity field being too expensive with too long a cooldown to use offensively without getting anything out of it). Viktor having more to offer his jungler is more than a bit of a stretch since Ori has so much more utility.

Morgan le Fey1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, but I don't know that

"What does Ori do if her jungler ganks? She shields him and then QW's. Then autos if she's close enough. She gets a quarter of your hp down and a small slow and then autos. Viktor will slow->stun you and chunk you for 1/3rd to half of your HP. That's much better for a jungler like Lee Sin to beat you down."

has ever been true typically if Viktor tries to use gravity field in lane it just scares off the enemy laner (gravity field being too expensive with too long a cooldown to use offensively without getting anything out of it). Viktor having more to offer his jungler is more than a bit of a stretch since Ori has so much more utility.

Well obviously you don't use it before Lee ganks. You use it to block off escape routes. Viktor's W is usually (not always, but usually) about area denial. If they screw up and end up in that area anyways, they're pretty dead.

Mogarl1 votes

The problem is that in this situation Lee would have to be corralling the enemy towards Viktor. The fact that Viktor is able to cut off a meaningful escape route with Gravity field means that they already fucked up. a lot of other mages would catch them with their CC and kill them for that. Viktor cuts off an escape route.

On Viktor all you can offer your jungler is your pre-gank poke and trying to bait in your opponent by "mispositioning". If your opponent doesn't bite then they will never get close enough to even risk being near Gravity field. That's why it puzzles me that someone would claim Ori has less to offer their jungler than Viktor.

ms boost, slow, shield, resistances, and Ori Ult vs. Slow field that'll stun if they stay in it for an extended period of time.

Xion The XIV1 votes

I have to agree with this. Victor can be good when ahead, but when behind is kinda worthless. But with Ori even if she get's stomped in lane her Ult can make or break a team fight. Ori is just like Blitzcrank. In which you can miss 1000 hooks, but just 1 good hook will end a game, or at least make you lose an inhib.

WolfChases1 votes

Same as Vayne chunks you down faster than Lucian early game. :D Theres a video posted on reddit how Vayne top managed to chunk her enemy to below half hp with 3 AA-s without having Silver Bolts at lvl 1.

Rins Thigh Socks2 votes

{quoted}

Same as Vayne chunks you down faster than Lucian early game. :D Theres a video posted on reddit how Vayne top managed to chunk her enemy to below half hp with 3 AA-s without having Silver Bolts at lvl 1.

Vayne is definitely stronger than Lucian level 1. Lucian has a little poke and his passive but the rest is all short ranged autos. Vayne has an auto reset that can dodge skillshots that allows her to both outplay Lucian as well as most of the roster at the level 1.

At level 2 Lucian gets a massive powerspike.

Durzaka1 votes

It was also against a morde, who is made of tissue.

Lucian could have done that to.

So could Draven.

So could trist (after E damage).

Like 70% of ADCs could have chunked morde like that clip showed.

WolfChases1 votes

Too bad we are different region, I would like to show you in custom that you are wrong. Being tissue or not, being chunked down to half HP against ADC that uses NOTHING but simple AA.

Durzaka1 votes

It was not nothing but AA.

Vayne used Q, which is an enhanced AA.

Lucian with Q and Draven with Q can absolutely do the exact same thing.

WolfChases1 votes

You are comparing AD caster marksmans with right click overlord. But you are also right, Lucian and Draven should be able to do that, not Vayne, not at all. Vaynes early game simply isn't weak enough to compensate for her godlike rampaging late game and that is the fact. Vaynes is no different than Caitlyn early on yet Caitlyn is supposed to be early game lane bully.

Durzaka1 votes

Tristana can do it to with one ability.

Sivir could as well (although she needs to land a skill shot)

Dealing 300 damage in 2 AA and 1 ability is NOT something exclusive to Vayne.

The Ecdysiast11 votes

Well, unfortunately at high levels of play games average 20-25 minutes because one mistake can cost the match. So there may be a middle game, but late games are few and far between.

So it's dominated by early-mid game champions.

Rins Thigh Socks19 votes

{quoted}

Well, unfortunately at high levels of play games average 20-25 minutes because one mistake can cost the match. So there may be a middle game, but late games are few and far between.

So it's dominated by early-mid game champions.

Okay thank you for your insight. I need your advice though.

If you could tell me how in the fuck that relates to the topic at hand, that'd be appreciated.

PB4UAME7 votes

If it is all early game, then there isn't much of a trade-off is there? You have a descriptive post, he's raising normative questions. They go hand in hand. If you cannot see that, you may understand this situation a whole lot worse than you think.

Rins Thigh Socks6 votes

{quoted}

If it is all early game, then there isn't much of a trade-off is there? You have a descriptive post, he's raising normative questions. They go hand in hand. If you cannot see that, you may understand this situation a whole lot worse than you think.

Okay thank you for your insight.

Again, I literally only talked about determining priority. "This is what actually makes a champion stronger in the early game."

His statement was, "Well, unfortunately at high levels of play games average 20-25 minutes because one mistake can cost the match. So there may be a middle game, but late games are few and far between. The game is dominated by early-mid game champions."

I didn't say IF there was a mid-game. I didn't say IF there was a late-game. I described how to determine what champion is functionally better in those stages of the game.

So, since you're so keen to defend him, if you could tell me how in the fuck that's related to the topic at hand outside of the absolute broadest sense of both statements, that'd be appreciated.

Lit Corn3 votes

that actually is related to the topic , since you're speaking about what it should be in theory and he proves his own points with facts , that are actually related to the topic since you're speaking about game stages ...

Rins Thigh Socks3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lit Corn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zd9bEYJi,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2017-11-17T09:59:04.711+0000)

that actually is related to the topic , since you're speaking about what it should be in theory and he proves his own points with facts , that are actually related to the topic since you're speaking about game stages ...

My post was about when you look at late-game in a vacuum (so discounting all variables like skill level differentials), what makes one champion stronger than the other, not about the possibility of how easy or reliable it is to get to the late-game.

And his "facts" are meaningless drivel heavily pushed by emotion and 1-2 statistics that are related to his statement only through Monty Python logic.

Legit after I said don't try connect them in the absolute broadest sense of both topics, the broadest connector being game stages, you defend his statement by bringing up game stages.

Lit Corn2 votes

" If you could tell me how in the fuck that relates to the topic at hand, that'd be appreciated."

i told you how , thats all . Tho you're right too at this point .

Elipso Nite2 votes

He's talking about how because of games typically lasting no longer than 25 minutes it's very hard to be able to actually play late game champions in the fashion you are mentioning.

Rins Thigh Socks2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Elipso Nite,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zd9bEYJi,comment-id=00050000000000000001,timestamp=2017-11-17T14:24:22.104+0000)

He's talking about how because of games typically lasting no longer than 25 minutes it's very hard to be able to actually play late game champions in the fashion you are mentioning.

The post is about when the game hits late-game, this is how to prioritize what is and isn't good. Not whether or not you can play those champions.

Again, he went off on a completely different tangent and nobody really seems to be getting that.

PB4UAME2 votes

No, you just have far too narrow a conception of the discussion, and are arbitrarily limiting the scope of it to only what you want to talk about, which seems to only be repeating what you have already said.

Disembark10 votes

Wait you’re saying because I dash into twitch as Lucian, let him get 6 stacks of venom on me and I lose the trade DOESNT mean twitch is strong early??? Wtf bro?

You’re saying if I took short trades I would win? Nah b.

Guanxi9 votes

Cough Akali Veigar Irelia

Rins Thigh Socks8 votes

{quoted}

Cough Akali Veigar Irelia

What point are you trying to make?

That they're strong at all points in the game? That they're threats even when they're supposed to be weak?

Disembark2 votes

Lol Veigar is frickin awful early. Long ass cooldowns, coregraphed abilties, short range.

Rins Thigh Socks5 votes

{quoted}

Lol Veigar is frickin awful early. Long ass cooldowns, coregraphed abilties, short range.

I don't think any of the stuff I asked. I'm just trying to figure out wtf he thinks.

NodaYame1272 votes

{quoted}

Cough Akali Veigar Irelia

These champs fall under "DON'T FIGHT ME ALONE" champs with veigar being the weakest seen as he has to land a stun. The general idea of these champs is to leave them alone and (if you have a good team) fight them with people so you can efficiently stun them (or whatever) and do enough damage to kill them. They are a threatening set of champs that force you to pay attention to them or they snowball you into the ground, but I wouldn't want them to change. Not that i play them everyday but i like hwat they add to a game and they give the ability to solo carry most of the time when you get matched up with a toxic team.

Ebonbolt6 votes

But how am i gonna complain about those pesky vaynes if i apply logic?!No, if i walk into her in 2 minion waves 1v2, miss all my abilities i should still kill her.

The Ecdysiast2 votes

Well, there's also the fact that as an ADC at level 6 you can't target her by any means for half of a fight while she repositions.

PB4UAME2 votes

1 second stealth on a 2 second CD for 12 seconds is so busted on a ranged hyper carry who just needs to right click for all of her damage.

Morgan le Fey1 votes

{quoted}

1 second stealth on a 2 second CD for 12 seconds is so busted on a ranged hyper carry who just needs to right click for all of her damage.

It's strong mostly because it allows her easy repositioning, especially combined with her movespeed boost. Positioning is everything with ADCs, especially Vayne. Otherwise, as long as you have skill shots, it's not too bad.

PB4UAME1 votes

It ridiculously hard counters almost all melee champions, even after they have closed on to her, given how far she can go in that 1 second coupled with the dash. Bonus points for her melting you as well while you can't even hurt her.

Dope Solo3 votes

Great post. Yasuo Zed <--- still obnoxiously broken.

GripaAviara2 votes

Yes, sure what you are saying 100% applies to soloq where team coordination is for diamond +, the fking 2% of player base

Riot and this community forgets the game is played by silver and bronzies. With the 2% the game can't survive.

Rins Thigh Socks17 votes

{quoted}

Yes, sure what you are saying 100% applies to soloq where team coordination is for diamond +, the fking 2% of player base

Riot and this community forgets the game is played by silver and bronzies. With the 2% the game can't survive.

You play Fizz

you freeze lane near your tower level 3

if mage player walks up to wave you all in him and he die boom you get 300 gold.

Congrats it's now applicable to Bronze and Silver.

Succubús GF5 votes

IM FUCKING SCREAMING [sg-miss-fortune]

big boi edri2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ahri Lover Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zd9bEYJi,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2017-11-16T23:45:59.151+0000)

You play Fizz

you freeze lane near your tower level 3

if mage player walks up to wave you all in him and he die boom you get 300 gold.

Congrats it's now applicable to Bronze and Silver.

...

you freeze lane near your tower level 3

That's not a thing in gold league, much less bronze/silver. I have NEVER seen someone freeze the wave that was legit bronze/silver/gold.

ChallengerTier1 votes

That's because once they do learn to freeze, they climb quickly lmao.

I Do Not Recall2 votes

Well that's the problem with trying to over categorize everything, champions can be strong early mid and late game. They are what they are. Not everything fits in a neat box, unless you put boxes in boxes.

VivaLaKitten2 votes

one problem you're saying you can roam as a mid laner which is completely false as no one ever actually does that when theyre on my team :D

The Cane Master1 votes

Hello Urgot Darius Pantheon

starelementpoke3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Cane Master,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=zd9bEYJi,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-11-16T22:43:31.772+0000)

Hello Urgot Darius Pantheon

I mean, you're going to have a hard time making your way up to the carries as Urgot or Darius unless they're being kinda stupid. It's not as if they have a particularly strong dash. As for Pantheon , his real only way to get to the backline is his ult late game, and it's kinda hard to miss tbf.

Somebody Love Me1 votes

I do like your point. Is that why Kogmaw shits on Cait in lane sometimes?

Rins Thigh Socks3 votes

{quoted}

I do like your point. Is that why Kogmaw shits on Cait in lane sometimes?

Cait, as a champion, never loses to Kog'Maw in lane.

The problem is when players try make Caitlyn do something she can't/shouldn't do. That's when they lose.

It's like I say champions scale but that doesn't mean the player does.

Over Innsmouth5 votes

The problem is when players try make Caitlyn do something she can't/shouldn't do. That's when they lose.

That's Caitastrophic.

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