Bring back assassin meta, tanks are unkillable again

Lord Macaroni·Mar 28, 2015·3 votes·1,744 views

At least you could kill assassins. Now these double bruiser/tank teams every game just dives blindly facerolling with 4k HP and 1 shotting carries with 1 damage item. See

39 Comments

AHeroNamedHawkeMar 28, 201514 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Macaroni,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T0L7Y9nK,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-03-28T06:00:22.016+0000)

At least you could kill assassins.

http://i.imgur.com/oduha3y.png[/img]

SEKAIMar 28, 20159 votes

Being able to 1 shot a tank, a frigging TANK, is something that should be expected?

You're not meant to focus them in the first place.

Sion, Nasus and Hec aren't even tank to my knowledge they just have the potential to be very tanky.

RivvyMar 28, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Being able to 1 shot a tank, a frigging TANK, is something that should be expected?

You're not meant to focus them in the first place.

Sion, Nasus and Hec aren't even tank to my knowledge they just have the potential to be very tanky.

..Did you just say you didn't believe Sion to be a tank?

SEKAIMar 28, 20152 votes

Idk while he has a lot of cc which is something of a tank's top iconic trait.

But none of them are reliable, the closest thing he has to being a reliable cc is Q's slow.

Hence why I define him to be a bruiser, who are can either be tanky or damaging and their cc isn't reliable most of the time.

Vicarious117Mar 28, 20151 votes

Having reliable cc isn't what defines a tank.

A tank is a champion that absorbs damage for their team, cc is just something that helps with this and why cc tanks are generally more effective. But Sion with his health stacking passive and his spammable shield, plus his afterdeath grace period he is basically the definition of a tank, not a bruiser.

Hecarim and Nasus could be classified as fighter/bruiser, just cause they aren't innately tanky and need itemization to get to that point, but Sion is most definitely 100% a full tank champion lol

SEKAIMar 28, 20152 votes

Tanks' main job is soaking damage and guaranteed disruption of enemy formation. A champ has to have both of them to be a tank, someone who can soak damage but the cc isn't reliable is a bruiser, someone who can cc but can't tank is a support.

That is also why Mundo is a bruiser instead of a tank due to his severe lack of cc, he is just a really really tanky bruiser.

One can argue Sion is actually pretty close to being tank as 3 out of 4 of his spells have cc attach to them, and he is tanky by default, and tankier as the game goes on. But one can also argue that none of his cc has certainty, the only one that is even remotely close to having it is his Q's slow portion.

Hence technically, while being close to be a tank he is on the same side with Mundo, he is still just some very tanky bruiser with incredible amount of cc load, but none of them are reliable.

Vicarious117Mar 28, 20153 votes

Leona and Alistair can tank just as well if not better then some jungle tanks like Zac and Maokai, Nautilus has recently become more of a support in pro play then a jungle champ yet he is still one of the best defined tanks in the game.

Having reliable cc has nothing to do with being classified as a tank, if you have a kit that is specifically made to keep you alive (not including mobility ofc), then you are a tank. The reason Mundo isn't classified as a tank is the same reason Aatrox isn't, they use their own health to deal damage and cc, thus they are not pure tanks meant to just soak damage. They become tanks through itemization and their regen, but due to the items being a necessity they are bruisers.

Sion can build some damage items and still be stupidly hard to kill because of his cc, spammable shield, and his passive that stacks health permanently. That is a tank, your cc being able to be avoided does not make a champ a bruiser, that's simply called counterplay, and the harder the cc the more unreliable it should be, again nothing to do with tank status.

All you have to do is look at the items a champ requires in order to be tanky. Champs like Sion, Alistair, Nautilus, and the like do not need tanky items to be tanky, sure tanky items help them perform their roles obviously but they will be hard to kill no matter what (as long as they don't fall behind ofc). Where as with champs like Hecarim, Nasus, Aatrox, Darius, and those kinds of champs if you build damage and don't get tanky items you will be imploded if you're not very careful, that's what makes them bruisers. It's not the cc, it's the itemization required.

SEKAIMar 28, 20151 votes

You got the idea wrong imo, the point of tanking is not just being alive, it's destroying enemy formation while being alive to do so, it has nothing to do with actual itemisation, since champ categorisation has nothing to do with them in the first place (as it's about something they do, not something they *can *do).

For tanks, what actually earns their title is their reliable cc and their large scale presence that forces the enemy team to mis-position, the soaking damage part is not their main definitive feature, it's more of the secondary thing for tanks. EDIT: Or I should say, they do both around evenly, slightly vary between different tank champions.

For those who soak damage well but have unreliable or insufficient team destruction abilities then they are bruisers, such is the case of Mundo, Garen or Olaf.

Sion is pretty much on the line between a tank or a bruiser but after all, I still define him to be the latter.

Sion can't build damage and expect to not die, that's not possible as his shield scales with his hp with a somewhat mediocre AP scale. The way way Sion builds damage is he maybe build 1 or 2 offense items and filled the rest of defense otherwise he would still get horribly murdered like every bruiser out there.

But as I said, categorisation has nothing to do with itemisation, at least not directly.

Vicarious117Mar 28, 20151 votes

Actually no you got the entirely wrong idea and completely missed my point. I didn't say a tank was a tank through itemization, I said if they do not require to itemize for it then they are a tank. And I'm not discussing whether that's fact or not ya know, I'm stating that is how you determine a tank.

I mean Blitz and Galio are both classified as tanks as well ya know, and why is that? Cause I mean they both only have like one form of cc, it's cause even when building damage they have ways of tanking up damage very effectively. But yes, when someone builds damage they cannot tank as much as when they build tanky, obviously, that's not what's up for debate here.

SEKAIMar 28, 20151 votes

Blitz has 3 cc and Galio has 2 while the other 2 are buffs. And both of them are not tank to begin with. Tbh I am a little unsure about Blitz but Galio isn't a tank that's for sure.

Don't follow Riot's current class definition, the old one used to be at least better.

Nowadays Riot says if you're melee who does damage? You're assassin. If you're melee who doesn't do tons of damage, then you're a tank.

No, just no.

Vicarious117Mar 28, 20151 votes

Well Riot classifies them as tank, and both Blitz's and Galio's Qs "aren't reliable cc," Galio's being only a slow anyway and Blitz's ult is just a silence, as in soft CC.

And sorry, but I'm more willing to accept Riot's classifications over some random dude on the forums who doesn't think Sion, well known for being one of the tankiest champions in the game, is a tank.

Not too mention they both do make for amazing tanks mid-late game due to both of their kits allowing for a ridiculous amount of damage absorption. Is that their best roles? Not really, but again due to their kits they can both tank a ton of damage, classifying them as tanks, and they both also have less cc then Sion, who we all know is a thousand times tankier then them both.

SEKAIMar 28, 20151 votes

That is why I was never talking about Riot's current definition of tanks, which to any player who played for at least 2 seasons it is a complete mess. I was talking about the older classification system which is more detailed and frankly, better.

You can keep thinking that HP = Tank for all you want, because some idiot in Riot abolished a better system in exchange for a worse one doesn't make it right.

Just like when Riot says "XXX champion is the most balanced" or "XXX is the most toxic", they are almost never true for the exact same reason.

I have already listed the differences between the classes for you, entirely up to you to take it or not, I can't make you.

EDIT: Silence is a soft cc? No, you don't know the power of silencing, especially when it's an AoE on Blitz. There is a reason why Riot is currently active in trying to get rid of a lot of Silence in this game.

Vicarious117Mar 30, 20151 votes

Never once said "HP = tank," nice assumption there. You trying to make me defend that instead of my actual point, which I made extremely obvious, because it's easier to not argue against someone who is right?

Also you haven't listed the differences between the classes, you have TRIED to, but you're wrong, and that entire statement of yours was incredibly hypocritical as well since I've done the exact same, only difference being that I'm right.

And silence is very strong, hence why Riot is systematically trying to remove it from the game completely as you say, but by definition it's a soft cc. Hard cc is when the person being cc'd cannot move, auto attack, use abilities, or anything. Silence is ridiculously strong but you can still move around while silenced therefore soft cc. I'm not arguing that it's on the same level as just a slow or something, cause it's far stronger, I'm just saying this isn't an argument or debate, it's defined as a soft cc.

Arcane AzmadiMar 28, 20151 votes

The term "tank" in LoL is somewhat misleading, confusing and, if you ask me, obsolete. I prefer the term "frontline" because it neatly sums up the champion's role- to stand between his team's damage and the opposing team's damage so that if the enemy want to take out his squishies they have to go through him first. They're more like linemen or linebackers in American football- a lineman's job isn't to stand there and let people hit him until he falls over, it's to keep the enemy AWAY from the ball (or when defending, to keep the ball from getting to it's "target", the enemy end zone).

SS EnforcerMar 28, 20151 votes

Sion is a tank.

Trash MammaIMar 28, 20153 votes

4k hp

item 3153 yess more more MORE

disregardableMar 28, 20153 votes

Seriously, there have been games when I built item 3153 item 3035 item 3006 item 3071 item 3072 item 3046 and I still could not 1v1 the tanks. It was honestly frustrating before and it is still frustrating.

SEKAIMar 28, 20153 votes

Because that build have almost 0 survivability, if you're up against someone with a lot of cc then lifestealing really isn't a good option, so if the tank has some form of sustaining damage like sunfire cape, then expect to get rekt in the end.

EDIT: Expended a bit.

However you should be able to win if it lasts long enough, unless you're against Nasus, but he isn't a tank so yer.

disregardableMar 28, 20152 votes

What do you call blood thirster...I main ADC, not assassins. I'm supposed to counter the tanks.

SEKAIMar 28, 20151 votes

ADC should win with that build against any meaty toons (or most), the only case you would run into some troubles is high sustaining ones like maybe Shen or Nasus.

Against genuine tanks like Alistar as an ADC in 1v1 that build should win.

disregardableMar 28, 20151 votes

The problem is with high damage tanks. Sion, Vi, Olaf, Renekton. The do a shit ton of damage to me, and then they either straight up kill me or run out of abilities and just walk away.

SEKAIMar 28, 20152 votes

All of them are bruisers, even Sion, due to all of his cc being unreliable.

So you kinda expect them to be both tanky and damaging at the same time (they just don't particularly excel in both category unless fed), and as an ADC you're not supposed to go 1v1 them in the first place. Especially Olaf, he was design to be the king of 1v1 to begin with.

AbyssphereMar 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T0L7Y9nK,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-28T06:45:40.931+0000)

The problem is with high damage tanks. Sion, Vi, Olaf, Renekton. The do a shit ton of damage to me, and then they either straight up kill me or run out of abilities and just walk away.

They're bruisers, not tanks (except Sion). I've seen an Olaf win against an AD Ezreal and Graves attacking him simultaneously, and this was before Cinderhulk. Bruisers tend to beat ADCs.

IcyPepperMar 28, 20153 votes

Even so, you shouldn't be 1v1, even late game. You got higher dps, but you take hits like a tissue. You won't benefit from lifesteal if you're cc'd.

From what I remember, the tanks initiate and try to get the focus of the enemy team, the assassins and AP nukes focus the adc with their range if at all possible, the support protects the adc (and secondary the team), and the adc deals as much dps as possible to the closest target that's safest to do so (typically the enemy frontline).

AMYS GRAVEMar 28, 20151 votes

Bloodthirster Is an AD item and doesn't help when you're stunned. You need a durability item. item 3026

zane yalgirMar 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T0L7Y9nK,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-03-28T06:28:37.653+0000)

Seriously, there have been games when I built and I still could not 1v1 the tanks. It was honestly frustrating before and it is still frustrating.

item 3031 item 3006 item 3087 item 3072 lastly item 3035 or/into item 3046

do not change that build order sell item 1055 after bt

Ashe Lucian

27/9/18 doe http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1774609947/211846831?tab=overview wp garen. you are my Nemesis look at player build youll see i swapped item 3035 too item 3139 with no hope of respawing fuck cc into a silence couldn't flash out warding op=[

MartyrofsandMar 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T0L7Y9nK,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-03-28T06:28:37.653+0000)

Seriously, there have been games when I built and I still could not 1v1 the tanks. It was honestly frustrating before and it is still frustrating.

So no IE which provides ADCs with their single biggest damage boost and you are surprised you didn't kill them? Also what ADC where you playing. If it was someone like Graves then its not surprising as he is not know for high damage scaling, more of a caster based ADC similar to EZ. Someone like Vayne, Kog, Draven, or Trist who have insane scaling would be far better for killing tanks.

disregardableMar 28, 20151 votes

Phantom Dancer/BT's damage is fine on its own. I generally have this problem regardless of who I play, I main Jinx though.

MartyrofsandMar 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The AFK Farmer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T0L7Y9nK,comment-id=0001000000020000,timestamp=2015-03-28T20:38:23.280+0000)

Phantom Dancer/BT's damage is fine on its own. I generally have this problem regardless of who I play, I main Jinx though.

Its really not. IE in addition to giving you additional crit makes those crits hit even harder. You should of dropped Cleaver for IE, especially if you had another melee AD who could use it better.

As for who you are playing I'm just gonna leave it at this. I don't tend to have a lot of problems with tanks when I play ADC and the only ADC I really play is Ashe. Thornmail and gromp hurt like hell I'll admit but if you position well, and build up your BT shield prior to fighting than you should be able to survive it. Now if they are beating on your face in addition to thornmail and gromp then yeah your dead. Like always you are going to need some help from your support.

MrSlowDieMar 28, 20151 votes

item 3031

you forgot the mandatory item for most ADC

disregardableMar 28, 20151 votes

Not really. There's not a whole lot of reason to bring it if the enemy team is by and large tanky as fuck.

Sion Chogath Swain Graves Alistar

MrSlowDieMar 28, 20151 votes

so do you think there's no reason to build 80 AD + 0,5 AD scaling on crit vs tank? better build BC that is a bruiser item, need to stack 5 times and calculated multiplicative with LW, not to mention only grant 50 AD?

item 3139 item 3026 item 3156 swains deals magic damage, thorn mail deals magic damage, gromp deals magic damage, sion has two magic damage, alistar has two, chogat has 3. These things also not a bad idea, scimitar especially if you caught in the snare

disregardableMar 29, 20151 votes

It was a made up team, mate.

MrSlowDieMar 29, 20151 votes

still useful vs magic damage

Luner HunterMar 28, 20152 votes

much salt such QQ

zane yalgirMar 28, 20152 votes

Ahri Nidalee MasterYi Velkoz Vayne MissFortune KogMaw Fizz Cassiopeia Diana Katarina Kalista Jax Trundle Annie Amumu Malzahar Xerath Ziggs Anivia Morgana

definitely not a anti tank cant choose any of those and have fun. -_- gotta have my op Akali Zed Leblanc Yasuo Khazix Talon

or i can ahve fun riot. -_- im bronze so meh. but as you can see fuck assassin meta.

<333333 Ashe Lucian KogMaw <33333333333 Velkoz TwistedFate

love those 5 and they suck hard in assassin bs meta

Only Play DariusMar 28, 20151 votes

Vicarious117Mar 28, 20151 votes

Honestly the issue with this is that the damage dealers for some reason think "well I'll just build MORE damage to try and counter this tanky initiation!" Which is wrong and the reason they keep getting caught and killed.

Banshee's Veil, Mercurial Scimitar, a Randuin's, Malmortius, etc etc etc. Even ADCs can build these items and honestly as a 4th or 5th item it should be a necessity to get that one appropriate tank/survivability item to deal with these tanky engagers. If you fall behind as an ADC don't think more damage will catch you back up, get some stats to keep you alive long enough to deal your damage!

And if you don't fall behind idc what you claim happens cause the truth is damage dealers can still kills these tanky champions just as easily. I still main Rengar and build him bruiser and when I get ahead a can still duel and kill those tanky junglers, as Talon I still shred through them, even when I play Galio I still chunk the sh*t out of tanks. It's all about itemizing correctly.