Zyra nerfed again because of support

An Undead brat·Jun 29, 2016·7 votes·1,954 views

"The cycle of buff and nerf continues."

Welcome back to season 3

53 Comments

Succubús GFJun 29, 20166 votes

I will never understand why zyra gets nerfs in the first place, she was in a good spot.Riot just doesnt want plant lady to be okay to play :c

Insert Cuck HereJun 29, 20169 votes

if getting chunked every 3 seconds by a frost queens zyra support that has 50 ap is ok, then ok!

BlåbæretJun 29, 20162 votes

She's strong in lane, not so much outside of it. She's such an easy kill. Also get some MR. She also isn't very good mid because she's a free kill.

SnugglePuggle94Jun 29, 20162 votes

I would argue against that. I've beaten Zed, Kat, Fizz, Ahri, and other would be counters with Zyra. She's a good mid laner, just this season there is way too much damage and mobility across the board that she became an easy target. And it doesn't help that Riot likes to balance her for support most of the time when she was made a mid laner.

Zero Skill TankJun 29, 20162 votes

Riot doesn't "like to balance her as a support", they have to because of how strong she is as a support.

VekknaJun 29, 20161 votes

LOL. She wasn't strong as a support for, like, all of season 5. They literally redesigned her to make her a stronger support and weaker carry.

Succubús GFJun 29, 20161 votes

^OMFG the accuracy [slayer-jinx-unamused]

SnugglePuggle94Jun 29, 20161 votes

Because they nerfed her mid lane, that's why she moved to support, then Riot started balancing her there too just because she was able to do well there.

Lady HammerlockJun 29, 20167 votes

{quoted}

She's strong in lane, not so much outside of it. She's such an easy kill. Also get some MR. She also isn't very good mid because she's a free kill.

Actually with 45% CDR and item 3116 she basically hard counters juggernauts because they literally can't do anything about her

she kites like a monster and the only juggernaut with even the slightest remote shot at catching her would be Skarner

Hinagiku33Jun 29, 20163 votes

...I'm pretty sure that ANY mage can "hard-counter" Juggernauts after they get 45% CDR and Rylai's. That's 3 completed items to even make that possible. If you have to wait that long, then it isn't a hard counter - if it doesn't counter them in lane from Lv 1-3~ on then it's not really any kind of counter besides "counter-building"

Succubús GFJun 29, 20164 votes

ROFL and what about that lux that caught you in her q and proceeds to e,r with hmm 30-50 ap an manages to delete you? Ok :) EDIT- also the full ap sona who uses one q and procs passive and you die almost instantly) oopsie daisies

Insert Cuck HereJun 29, 20162 votes

early game sona and lux to a zyra LUL.

good comparison

An Undead bratJun 29, 20161 votes

Except yeah, Lux with TLD is great comparsion.

SnugglePuggle94Jun 29, 20162 votes

Dude, she has high damage, that's a no brainer. Every one knows that. Stop complaining about it because it won't change. Her tradeoffs for it is that she's incredibly squishy and slow. Make her waste her snare, jump in and she's dead. Bam, easy peasy.

An Undead bratJun 29, 20161 votes

Every 3 seconds? Lol that's like he Q CD maxed out and 40% CDR...

Itadaki SeiekiJun 29, 20163 votes

{quoted}

I will never understand why zyra gets nerfs in the first place, she was in a good spot.Riot just doesnt want plant lady to be okay to play :c

Her playstyle was extremely unforgiving.

I play Bard, I ban Zyra EVERY chance I get. Why?

Her poke is ALWAYS better than mine, AND she doesn't have to be close to do it. She can proc Thunderlord's via her plant and that is extremely unfair. She takes poking an enemy laner to a whole new level. Where as Bard/Sona/Karma/Hell even Lulu have to get close to poke, Zyra can just spawn plants and woops. There goes 30% of my health and a Thunderlord's proc.

:^)

Good spot, yeah?

SnugglePuggle94Jun 29, 20161 votes

Her tradeoff for that damage- she's squishy as fuck. Get some MR and fucking stun her, man. Walk over her plants so she can't spawn them. Easy as pie.

Itadaki SeiekiJun 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Her tradeoff for that damage- she's squishy as fuck. Get some MR and fucking stun her, man. Walk over her plants so she can't spawn them. Easy as pie.

Alright. You got me there. However, it's not worth the trade because she just E's and now you're slowed and taking unneeded damage from her Q. It doesn't matter if you walk over a plant because chances are her passive put one right next to your stepping on because RNG hates me. That or she just W's twice and then I'm half healthed because of how much it takes to kill them early game. =p

VekknaJun 29, 20163 votes

Bard kills plants faster than any other champ in the game. Because meeps. You literally 1-shot a plant if you have 2 meeps.

If she's standing next to her plants, hit Q.

SnugglePuggle94Jun 29, 20161 votes

Bait out her E, squash her plants, walk over her seeds. Done. She has high AOE damage, so no matter how much you complain she will always have it. You just need to build and play against her and really it's not that big of a deal anymore when you do.

Zero Skill TankJun 29, 20163 votes

This is so-called "Rengar syndrome" when champion gets reworked, but their playerbase insists on keeping their identity that Riot basically changes nothing and new version has all the problems of old.

New Zyra will eventually get forced into support role, just like old Zyra was, simply because she received 0 meaningful changes to playstyle.

An Undead bratJun 29, 20161 votes

You know what is the core problem? The deeply rooted top->jungle->mid->adc+supp habit. The thing is people can take ANYONE as a support, some like to take characters with high damage. That's not Zyra's problem.

Zero Skill TankJun 29, 20162 votes

But the problem isn't that people take Zyra as support and she has high damage, the problem is that when they do she outshines other supports, because she has high damage AND high utility. Zyra's current kit can't be balanced in both roles at the same time - just like the old kit, which was basically the same - so she will end up supporting.

manbearswineJun 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

But the problem isn't that people take Zyra as support and she has high damage, the problem is that when they do she outshines other supports,

You say that, but competitive(aside from NA that is, which is well, one of the weaker regions) disagrees with you, with zyra being mostly ignored outside of NA, and notably nearly completely ignored in korea.

Zyra has her issues and weaknesses, it's just that people in solo q have no intention to adapt to anything and zyra thrives on incompetance, which is common in solo q, but not always there... this in turn creates a problem, but that's not the point, there are clearly reasons to pick other supports over her(even before the nerfs), or at least the very best teams in this game seem to think that way.

An Undead bratJun 29, 20161 votes

How many times will I have to say this...? That's EVERY mage in support role! Why are they not getting nerfed?

manbearswineJun 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

New Zyra will eventually get forced into support role, just like old Zyra was, simply because she received 0 meaningful changes to playstyle.

Thing is, and what these boards love to forget(among other things), is that zyra's playerbase was/is mostly as a support.

Sure, you can say that right now she's seen competitive play as a support, and established herself a place there while also being clearly stronger, you'd have a point, but let me remind you that when the rework went live, and nobody really knew where she would be better and her pickrate skyrocketed as people were trying her out, she still kept the same old 4:1 support to mid ratio.

It's just so happens that mid laners are apparently very vocal about keeping mages in mid and out of the support role, and a vote on the boards is a vote, doesn't matter if you play the champion or not.

Riot made the right call keeping her as a support, there were bad decisions, though they are more related to winrate balancing than anything else.

Silly NeekoJun 29, 20162 votes

The only major nerf she is receiving is the fact that her plants do not auto target enemy champions. Thats like saying heimer turrets should auto target enemy champions even though he is completely safe and out of range of enemy champions.... it is going to how it was MEANT to be....an auto attack is needed to have it target, or nothing else around/closest target being an enemy champ....

The total and complete poke out of lane because her plants are not auto targetted by minions, so she is able to summon them under a hoard of minions, and then 3 of them suddenly appear and proc thunderlords, 3 ticks of frost queens claim, and often times with rylias's crystal scepter which (since each plant is single targetting) applies max duration and max amount of slow...... oh and did i mention it just HAPPENS to always target the closest champion even if it is in the middle of a minion hoard? And lets not forget the rapid fire boost from ultimate that slows, knocks up, and makes her plants explosive shooting gattling guns.

All the rest is pretty minor changes, her play style and everything else was not changed in her rework... it was how safely they can poke you from lane.

Think of it this way, if zed's shadow was up pretty much all the time and throwing shurikens, do you figure that is fair too? Minus the being able to trade places with it. It would be a lot more fair then Zyra's plants before this patch :)

An Undead bratJun 29, 20162 votes

Heimer's turrets actually attack you when you come nearby. Might be unintentional, but I never notticed they would do otherways.
Yes, that's bugfix. But I'm talking about the nerfs, aka seeds CD increased, which is a major thing (you don't play Zyra, do you? It has a huge impact.
I agree it's deserved. What bothers me, Rito (and you) claims it's because of support Zyra, that's the thing. Let me quote Rito: "Everything we tried improved her midlane." Sure. <title>
That Zed comparation is absolutely inaccurate (his shadows are untargetable and undestroyable, shurikens pass through units and deal WAY more damage).
Only idiots take TDL on Zyra because they loose so much damage late game which is not worth in early cause with ignite you can burst your enemy down on 3rd level.

I'm out.

Silly NeekoJun 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RiWAKqEP,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2016-06-29T11:23:28.553+0000)

Heimer's turrets actually attack you when you come nearby. Might be unintentional, but I never notticed they would do otherways.

Yes, that's bugfix. But I'm talking about the nerfs, aka seeds CD increased, which is a major thing (you don't play Zyra, do you? It has a huge impact.

I agree it's deserved. What bothers me, Rito (and you) claims it's because of support Zyra, that's the thing. Let me quote Rito: "Everything we tried improved her midlane." Sure. <title>

That Zed comparation is absolutely inaccurate (his shadows are untargetable and undestroyable, shurikens pass through units and deal WAY more damage).

Only idiots take TDL on Zyra because they loose so much damage late game which is not worth in early cause with ignite you can burst your enemy down on 3rd level.

I'm out.

Mmmk. My numbers will be cooresponding to yours.

I haven't really payed that much to Heimer's turret interaction with champions because if i got close enough to the turret, the heimer attacks me and sets me as the turret target. When playing Heimer the rare times I do, the turrets appear to kill the current target and then target the next closest unit and shoots that until A. they or it dies, or B. The target moves out of range. I could be wrong about that, im not 100% sure if thats what happens.
That few seconds just determines when your main form of poke/damage and when it is up. Yes, that does cut down her threat but only for a few seconds. Just while reading my number 2. post here you have taken about the same time as the time difference for zyra's passive. Same as any other cooldown increase (fizz E is a good example).... it will not change their actual game play. It will be felt, dont get me wrong, but it really is not a life altering moment. The bugfix is what will hurt her the most. Feel free to try and prove me wrong about that, but you will likely feel the effects of it and try to blame the few seconds that your seeds did not spawn. For the record, I do not play Zyra often at all no. I HAVE played her and I do play against her. The only difference that will really be felt is.... the bugfix and a SLIGHTLY slower plant up time.
I hope I did not give the impression i was ONLY talking about support Zyra. I played vs an AP zyra in TT who was wrecking everything in her path. When I talk about a champion I talk about them as a whole, in all maps I have encountered them, and in all situations I have encountered them. Support Zyra will not have a very different feel at all, she will still be the annoying safe bursting champion as ever gaurding the bushes from my prowling. I was meaning Mid Zyra is needing that nerf, which is actually just a bugfix.
Yeah I was stretching with that zed example a bit, but with 2+ plants attacking at once on an enemy champion (unless its yasuo), how many of your enemy mid laners will attack the plants? Unless they have a safe way to get rid of them... the enemy will not attack them. Thus almost making them similar to an AP shaco clone coming at you (Just stationary if you want to get technical). Either you kill it and get it over with, or you avoid it and wait for it to die by itself. If you are too close when killing it, you take damage you really hope you did not have to take. Think that might be a better example? Idk, makes sense to me but im weird and so not think like most people xD
As I still have yet be answered what TDL is the multiple times ive asked.... I assume you mean Thunderlord's Decree? If that is the case, then I will say that it is all about play style. You sound like you are more into sustained damage over time. Perfectly fine with that, it fits how you play and your preference. Thunderlord's is also just as viable because makes her more of a burst mage. Either way she bursts just fine if wanted, but same as with other burst mages, that little extra kick to the rear could be what kills, and what lets them survive for a chance to kill. Also it helps with poking in late game, while for example Deathfire's Touch helps with sustained team fights late game.

Peace out.

An Undead bratJun 29, 20161 votes

I know they should, I just never feel like they do when I play against him.
We mains will feel it, it's the thing of micromanagement.
But you were talking about FQC stacks and noone builds FQC anymore on mid. And this post was meant to be a reaction on what Rito said anyway.
Now that their AI is fixed, you will either have to walk into AA range (as I did everytime anyway) or just cast a plant. In the second scenario the plant won't attack you and you can kill it very easily. That means you can assassinate Zyra if she comes close, or just destroy plants. These are to clear counterplays (it is pretty easy to kill her, trust me), which now after the fixation devalidate the seeds nerfs (by my opinion).
Just no. Yes, I mean Thunderlord's, but it's just stupid. You walk to your lane, hit a Q and two plants attack. Your opponent is on half his health, but is alive, you won't kill him, he can regen back or just back. If this is better than kill him on lvl 3 instantly, on level 6 again (even WITHOUT TLD) and also have much much more damage late game, because EVERY plant attack procs DFT (8 + 0.25 AP per hit) + your full combo has bonus 0.75 AP ratio, which is dealt over 4 seconds, but who cares. With TLD you can hit ONE target for 180 (on 18th lvl) + 0.1 AP. Only someone REALLY stupid player would pick TLD, but most people did not count the numbers and TLD feels more satisfying, so they take it.

Silly NeekoJun 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sexy Bisex Plant,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RiWAKqEP,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-29T14:54:45.323+0000)

I know they should, I just never feel like they do when I play against him.

We mains will feel it, it's the thing of micromanagement.

But you were talking about FQC stacks and noone builds FQC anymore on mid. And this post was meant to be a reaction on what Rito said anyway.

Now that their AI is fixed, you will either have to walk into AA range (as I did everytime anyway) or just cast a plant. In the second scenario the plant won't attack you and you can kill it very easily. That means you can assassinate Zyra if she comes close, or just destroy plants. These are to clear counterplays (it is pretty easy to kill her, trust me), which now after the fixation devalidate the seeds nerfs (by my opinion).

Just no. Yes, I mean Thunderlord's, but it's just stupid. You walk to your lane, hit a Q and two plants attack. Your opponent is on half his health, but is alive, you won't kill him, he can regen back or just back. If this is better than kill him on lvl 3 instantly, on level 6 again (even WITHOUT TLD) and also have much much more damage late game, because EVERY plant attack procs DFT (8 + 0.25 AP per hit) + your full combo has bonus 0.75 AP ratio, which is dealt over 4 seconds, but who cares. With TLD you can hit ONE target for 180 (on 18th lvl) + 0.1 AP. Only someone REALLY stupid player would pick TLD, but most people did not count the numbers and TLD feels more satisfying, so they take it.

Well we are pretty much on the same page about Heimer turrets, so off to number 2!
Mains will feel it more than others for sure, but the overall feel will just be slightly slower. Every second does matter, but you will still be assassinating people at level 3, and again at level 6.
I still see FQQ from time to time on mid laners that do not have a hard engage but has a fairly hard cc (examples Zyra, Morgana). With the new FQQ update, I know they said champion offspring ( Heimer turrets, Zyra plants) will not turn the spelltheif's passive off... but I think I saw something about you can CS with it and not have it turn off? I can't remember that for certain due to reading it while tired, but if that is true.... I am assuming it will be seen in midlane for certain champions a bit more.
I agree, the seed nerfing may have been a little excessive, they should have just did the bugfix and seen what happened first. Even though I still do not believe it will be quite as felt.... I do believe they will revert it back within a patch or two. I will repeat again that my only issue with Zyra before apart from her ability to easily and effectively keep me from my bushes (her normal gameplay in otherwords, and I just really love my bushes ._.) is that bug that is being fixed.
It is all a matter of preference. Thunderlord's is 230+ at late game, and is instant BOOM kick in the rear. That 180+ with the DFT will be 60+ for 4 seconds, and same with early ignite, it can pretty much be HP potted away. DFT also does not stack, it refreshes but does not stack. If 3 zyra plants attacked at the same time, and only attacked once.... the Thunderlord's will win in the poke exchange. The DFT will win in damage overall, but if you think about it similar to a teemo mushroom (yes less damaging but still, bare with me im making a point).... Teemo places mushrooms all around the map, enemies step on them and take damage. Most of the time, the shrooms do not kill..... the damage just makes the enemy back, but when they keep hitting mushrooms they will eventually die and rather quickly. Thunderlord's is more like Teemo's blind in a case like this. Instant damage that makes you feel it. Often does more killing than the shrooms due to its instant burst........ is one actually better than the other? Or is it just a matter of preference? The mushroom damage will always do more overall and will still get kills just as fast if not faster in prolonged combat, but the blind damage pokes strong and hard instantly and makes the enemy run, because if they do not.... they will risk another shot and it could kill. The point I am making about the Thunderlord's vs the Deathfire Touch is both are viable, but in all honesty it is a matter of preference on which is actually better. You may not like thunderlord's for her, but others do. The Thunderlord's also is up almost every time her passive spawns more seeds, so you will be procing it every time you would normally be procing the Deathfires Grasp.

Ulquiorra995Jun 29, 20162 votes

inb4 5% AP on Q "compensation" for mid Zyra.

BisaknospJun 29, 20162 votes

i didnt mind the w nerf but the passive late game nerf was kind of dumb from 6.75 seconds to 8.5 is too much imo it doesnt sound like much but every plant matters late game

BeldairJun 29, 20162 votes

They were nerfing her probably because of how oppressive of an early game Zyra has in bot.

An Undead bratJun 29, 20161 votes

No shit, Sherlock! [slayer-jinx-wink]

BeldairJun 29, 20161 votes

No need for that.... You are the one making a post about nerfs and what not....

LadyRenlyJun 29, 20162 votes

good, because fuck bot lane zyra. if gutting mid zyra is collateral damage to make bot zyra easier to deal with, then it's a necessary evil

Handin Out NapsJun 29, 20162 votes

Zyra support is an auto win bot lane, it needed nerfs.

taleofsonataJun 29, 20161 votes

If Zyra Plants start executing minions she would be completely removed from bottom lane.

An Undead bratJun 29, 20161 votes

Would be so weird playing around and also OP waveclear...

Guy Fox TeemoJun 29, 20161 votes

Zyra mid is pretty oppressive and strong as well, they only reason she mostly sees bot lane play is that it's easy to abuse the free harass in a duo lane.

An Undead bratJun 29, 20161 votes

Alistar Anivia Annie Bard Chogath Karma Lux Nidalee Poppy Teemo Taliyah Syndra Trundle Velkoz

Noone of them has it.

Guy Fox TeemoJun 29, 20161 votes

None of them have what?

warpenguin555Jun 29, 20161 votes

They said they would balance her around Support and not mid...

An Undead bratJun 29, 20162 votes

They did. And it's stupid. There are many stronger supports that her, people are just often surprised, because they don't expect her damage and cry about it, but that was ALWAYS like this with EVERY mage that EVER went to botlane as a "support" (Lux, Annie, ...). Take Braum, he sheilds your ADC, which will kill the plants. Take Leona, which jumps on Zyra BOOM Zyra dead. She has clear counterplays, people only see her poke. So vulnerable to ganks also.

BeldairJun 29, 20161 votes

And yet a good Zyra is always prepared for that....

SaltyKrackaJun 29, 20161 votes

Yes, Zyra was nerfed again because she was completely fucking broken as a support. This is no great surprise.

Ozag the MightyJun 29, 20161 votes

Her lane controller makes me love her to death, I only play her as supp. Her poke makes the SEC's job much easier

Silly NeekoJun 30, 20161 votes

I will state this, Zyra support was not changed at all. So those complaining about support Zyra being more "manageable" now..... is severely going to be disappointed. As for mages that are supports that have obsurd poke..... Meet AP Blitzcrank. Full ap with Lichbane I have done over 3k damage in 3 abilities. You do not know pain until you fight a Lichbane Sona AP support either. The complaints about Zyra support are silly beyond reason because her damage output will be just like before, only a little slower.

Zyra is not broken by any means unless the Zyra is fighting...... well lets be honest, someone who just does not know Zyra lol