Full tank = tons of damage #ritologic

Trias000·Jul 1, 2015·8 votes·3,934 views

Why are there champions that can build no damage items whatsoever and still deal ridiculous amounts of damage, but Graves can't have a cigar?

36 Comments

Ouroborous HDJul 1, 20154 votes

what about those champs who build full damage but can tank 5 people. and graves cant have a cigar?

Trias000Jul 1, 20151 votes

There are no such champions. But if there were, that would mean they are op as fuck.

Ouroborous HDJul 2, 20153 votes

so you are telling me that riven cant build full damage then tank five peoples damage due to her shield having a 1:1 scaling and being on a approx 3 second cd.

Trias000Jul 4, 20151 votes

You try that and see how that works for you. If it does, you'll be in challenjour in no time ;)

7ha7guy777Jul 2, 20152 votes

Tryndamere, kayle, and poppy can

Trias000Jul 3, 20151 votes

For 3-6 seconds, using their ults. That's something different than Garen spinning around the map and killing everything in his way, while it takes half an hour to kill him.

TrídentJul 2, 20155 votes

Tryndamere Kayle Poppy

They're not OP.

Tryn and Poppy are considered toxic by some people, however.

Only Play DariusJul 3, 20154 votes

Because if they don't build tank items, they get melted before they even reach the enemy.

NemeBroJul 3, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ra0uFYiN,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-07-03T05:50:01.418+0000)

Because if they don't build tank items, they get melted before they even reach the enemy.

This is basically why Nasus is allowed to do so much damage by building almost or full tank. He has to walk to you to deal his damage. Even wither doesn't keep him from being kited in a team fight.

Only Play DariusJul 3, 20153 votes

{quoted}

He has to walk to you to deal his damage

Thank god, someone who actually sees a champions weakness instead of cries about OP. I swear to god it seems like there's 10 new QQ threads for my favorite champ Nasus each day I check the boards. It's the same with Darius , yes he is aggravating in lane but outside of it he's useless because the most he can do is walk towards you and hope he doesn't get kited. If Nasus and Darius had the kind of initiation Sejuani Amumu have that lets them get into the middle of the enemy team, yes they would be absolutely broken. But they dont.

NemeBroJul 3, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ra0uFYiN,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2015-07-03T05:58:48.309+0000)

Thank god, someone who actually sees a champions weakness instead of cries about OP. I swear to god it seems like there's 10 new QQ threads for my favorite champ each day I check the boards. It's the same with , yes he is aggravating in lane but outside of it he's useless because the most he can do is walk towards you and hope he doesn't get kited. If Nasus and Darius had the kind of initiation have that lets them get into the middle of the enemy team, yes they would be absolutely broken. But they dont.

I've always felt that Darius' weakness outside of lane was overstated, to be honest.

He's not the best teamfighter, sure, but he's not nearly the worst either. He's a pretty solid peeler. I've killed many a Zed who tried to assassinate my carry.

Yeah though, Nasus has noticeable drawbacks (the biggest one being that if your team is hard feeding really early in there is literally nothing Nasus can do to fix this if the enemy team capitalizes on that advantage), as does Darius (who is more or less my main in the top lane).

Only Play DariusJul 3, 20152 votes

Peel yes, both can use their pull/wither to protect their team. But that's them responding to you. They are not the one calling the shots in teamfights.

khorneyJul 1, 20152 votes

umm becuase its a concept you can make any champ in the game full tank and still deal the damage on there moves because its a matter of outlasting

Matthias9119Jul 2, 20152 votes

Okay, I'll bite. Which champs deal "ridiculous" amounts of damage while building full tank?

3TWarriorJul 2, 20153 votes

a lot of the actual tanks do

mundo(his early game is bad), chogath, amumu, vladimir(somewhat since his hp scales with ability power and has tons of escape potential), blitzcrank early game, darius every stage of the game, diana built tanky..., Galio(high burst damage but high cooldowns too), garen, gnar(he's usually built tanky and gets a large boost once he is in his mega form), I dont know how people with gragas do it but he can do it and gets 20% damage reduction for a few seconds, hecaRIP, jarvan IV, leona's damage stays pretty high but it's not really on the same scale, maokai's is fairly good, nasus has hardcore infinite scaling but his team usually suffers for this, nautilus can chunk quite a bit of hp, sejuani(lol), shyvana is fairly tanky but I don't see enough of her to really know, Sion does insane damage depending upon build and has infinite hp scaling, Swain...for the master tactician, how is it bright to just walk right into the enemy team and heal off almost all damage you take? XD he's not really even that tanky but his kit lets him be so unless he is specifically focused down, Vi does some very good damage while built tanky and it's typically her preferred build, Volibear...lol, the guy builds entirely tanky and you can watch your hp bar disappear...his only weakness is that he's melee ranged, Warwick can sustain near infinitely and nearly kill if not kill a carry, Zac can jump onto anyone he wants and can chunk up to 20% of someone's hp at a time (with a realistic ap build, if you wanted more you'd be losing too much of his hp) and do even more than that with his abilities, then the 20% chunk is back in 5 seconds max

yorick shouldn't really be mentioned because he is played very little and his damage falls off late game, but if he can actually get to a target, he can hit fairly hard, have a large amount of hp, high sustain and he can revive a carry as his "damage" for 10 seconds

Matthias9119Jul 3, 20156 votes

Well, um, you just listed almost a third of the champion roster, and half of those aren't tanks, and a bunch of them are absolutely terrible when actually built full tank (which is "all defensive items", not "they built something with HP on it in a couple slots"). But let's see what you've got here.

mundo

If you build him full tank he has essentially zero damage output other than the %health on his single-target cleavers.

chogath

If you build him full tank the only real damage he does is the flat true damage on his ult. He's a good disruption tank with the silence+knockup, but he's not gonna kill anybody by himself.

amumu

If you build him full tank he does 3% of max health per second with his damage aura, plus 350 base damage from his ult. This is not "ridiculous" damage.

vladimir

Vlad has no defensive steroids and is generally much better building AP/spellvamp than loading up on HP. 3k bonus health gives him all of 75AP, not enough to do "ridiculous" damage (other than the damage amp on his ult if the rest of his team is attacking you).

blitzcrank early game

Blitz built full tank does pathetic damage in the mid-to-late game. He's a disruption tank and/or support. (Bruiser Blitzcrank is terrifying 1v1 but not nearly as hard to kill.)

darius

Darius is not a tank. He's a fighter, and because his ult doesn't scale he can build pretty tanky and still do reasonable damage with it. But he does a lot more damage with everything else if he actually builds some armor pen and AD.

diana

Diana, again, is not a tank. She's can build like a bruiser and do okay damage while being tanky, but she doesn't delete people when built full tank like she does when built glass cannon AP.

garen

If truly built full tank, he doesn't do much damage outside of his ult, at least past the early game. But because of his ult and dealing reasonable AOE damage in teamfights he can get away with building pretty tanky.

gnar

Eh... he is listed as 'tank' as his secondary role, but it's very situational. For how tanky he is in Mega Gnar form he can deal a lot of damage as Mini Gnar. But if truly built full tank his damage is subpar.

gragas

Gragas is sort of a weird magey bruiser thing, and can get away with building pretty tanky. But he doesn't really deal insane damage when built full tank.

jarvan IV

Jarvan does pretty lousy damage outside of his ult when built full tank.

leona

Leona has one of the lowest damage outputs of any tank. CC like crazy, sure, but her damage doesn't really scale, especially when she builds full tank.

maokai

Maokai does terrible damage when built full tank. Impossible to kill when his ult's active, sure, but not much damage.

nautilus

Nautilus has terrible damage when built full tank. Great single-target lockdown, terrible damage.

shyvana

Shyvana does moderate AOE damage and poor single-target damage when built full tank.

Swain

Swain does absolutely terrible damage if you build him full tank. Nobody does this. With a sorta-tanky AP hybrid build (which is what people usually do) he does decent damage and has decent survivability from his spellvamp.

Vi

Vi is not a tank. If she builds full tank her damage is not great and it's hard for her to actually set off her W because her AS is so low. I play her a lot and she's MUCH better as a bruiser unless nobody else on the team can tank.

Warwick

If he really builds full tank, WW is very hard to kill but does very little damage.

Zac

Zac does pretty bad damage if you build him full tank.

The ones that actually do some damage:

Volibear

Yep, that %health execute with HP scaling hurts like a bitch even when he's really tanky. But everything else he has deals poor damage if he builds full tank.

sejuani

Sej does decent damage when building tanky, because of the HP scaling on her W. She's much more valuable for her initiation than her damage when built this way, though.

hecaRIP

Hec can do decent damage even building tanky because of his passive. I wouldn't say it is "ridiculous", but it's higher than you'd expect.

Galio

I'll throw Malphite and Rammus in here too, since they all get offensive scaling of some sort from defensive stats. However, Galio is massively dependent on his ult when built really tanky, and Malphite's and Rammus' ults do very little damage when built tanky.

nasus

Nasus is a unique case with his infinite scaling, since he can build full or almost full tank and, in a long enough game, still deal absolutely insane damage. But he has to farm for 30+ minutes to get there, longer if the enemy team focuses on shutting him down.

Sion

Sion's damage building full tank is lousy. However, his stacking-HP mechanic means that he can build several offensive items but still become very hard to kill by the end of a long match. Again, it's sort of a conditional thing, because if he goes all offense early on he's extremely vulnerable.

3TWarriorJul 3, 20152 votes

some of these I agree on, others, not so much

I would make an argument for Diana, but my memory of the match in question is not that good, especially with riot's server issues running around

NemeBroJul 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Okay, I'll bite. Which champs deal "ridiculous" amounts of damage while building full tank?

Nasus certainly can. It just takes a while to get there.

Matthias9119Jul 3, 20153 votes

I mentioned him in my reply below as a special case.

TLDR, these were the ones I agreed could (at least potentially) deal significant damage while building very tanky:

Voli (HP scaling damage) Sej (HP scaling damage) Hec (MS scaling damage) Galio (MR scaling damage) Malphite (Armor scaling damage) Rammus (Armor scaling damage) Nasus (infinite damage scaling) Sion (infinite HP scaling)

However, all of them have noticeable drawbacks and/or noticeably lower damage with most abilities when building extremely tanky.

NemeBroJul 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I mentioned him in my reply below as a special case.

TLDR, these were the ones I agreed could (at least potentially) deal significant damage while building very tanky:

Voli (HP scaling damage) Sej (HP scaling damage) Hec (MS scaling damage) Galio (MR scaling damage) Malphite (Armor scaling damage) Rammus (Armor scaling damage) Nasus (infinite damage scaling) Sion (infinite HP scaling)

However, all of them have noticeable drawbacks and/or noticeably lower damage with most abilities when building extremely tanky.

I should probably mention that Sion also deals damage that scales with his opponent's max HP.

Matthias9119Jul 3, 20153 votes

Very conditional. He has to be in your face, and you have 3 seconds to pop the shield before he can detonate it. I'd say Amumu has a stronger case on those grounds than Sion -- but Amumu's W aura deals a LOT more damage with some MPen and AP.

IMO it takes more than "has an ability that does %HP damage" to qualify as "does ridiculous damage while building full tank".

Surr20plzJul 2, 20152 votes

Give graves his cigar back.

IcyPepperJul 3, 20152 votes

How do you expect to survive if you don't build any defensive items?

Either kite, get peeled, or build some defenses if you want to go toe-to-toe with tanks. You're not supposed to be in melee range if you're a glass cannon ranged carry, so use that range!

Trias000Jul 3, 20151 votes

Good luck kiting Garen or J4

Mecha MaIphiteJul 3, 20151 votes

Kiting j4 is understandably difficult for champs with low mobility but if you can't kite a garen then you're doing something very wrong.

Trias000Jul 4, 20151 votes

Tell me, how to kite a champion that can easily have nearly 50% tenacity, shrugs off any slows, has a speed boost, and silences you on top of that?

BluePolarizerJul 4, 20151 votes

by using any one of your dashes, positioning behind your team or terrain, and essentially, getting better.

SaltyKrackaJul 2, 20151 votes

I'll tell you the name of the game, boy.

It's called riding the gravy traiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnn

TrídentJul 2, 20151 votes

Stop. Phreak. Puns. Pls.

3TWarriorJul 2, 20151 votes

okay then, let's look at tanks throughout history

modern tank: can blow up a building or another tank from X distance away and takes nothing less than another tank or a high explosive to take it out

ancient tank: heavily armored fighter typically equipped with large weapons to inflict maximum damage and might even have a shield to negate many things such as arrows or swords and would take no less than an axe to cut into their armor

Fish tank: Tahm Kench (XD )

lol, couldn't resist

the point is, tanks are supposed to deal heavy damage on the front line along with the infantry or initiators and reckless people going into a fight

let's say someone has a rocket launcher (on in league's case, a caster), typically that weapon will be very bulky and require setup time, hindering the "caster's" movements and casts(hence cooldowns)

but just like the rocket launcher, mages are supposed to take tanks down from afar along with the initiators(tanks and fighters) and support peel (carries)

the real rito logic is how some assassins (zed) can kill tanks in seconds whereas people built for damage and mages take roughly 3-5x as long...and that's a tank, not a squishy, his supposedly prime target...

a carry that takes armor pen items will also need a lot of gold...zed doesn't seem to need anything but the armor penetration

Trias000Jul 3, 20151 votes

Well, if you wanna compare it to the real life tanks (really?), then why fighters can't fly around the map dropping missiles and dodging all damage? It's only logical.

3TWarriorJul 3, 20151 votes

actually, that's exactly how the fighters work, typically very mobile, get to their target, unleash their combo and either get out or take out their next target

like master yi, riven, and many others

Trias000Jul 4, 20151 votes

But they can't fly. Your argument is invalid ;)

3TWarriorJul 4, 20151 votes

Kayle can XD