Stashu, you lied to us. Again.

Scampy·Jan 14, 2015·35 votes·3,414 views

You said you'd keep working on Cass until she was as good as she could be. Now you've got Rioters coming on the boards and saying they don't see the point in changing her because she's strong, and pre-rework Cass players are facing our worst fear. We were so scared that as soon as she became strong, Riot would say "B-b-b-but her win rate is good! So clearly you all love her! My work here is done!"

Lo and behold, Stashu lied to Cass players again. Who would have friggin' thought.

67 Comments

junglerboy16Jan 14, 201511 votes

"Cuz all that really matters is balance. Screw fun."

The TL;DR: for whenever someone doesn't like a change and Riot doesn't want to change the change.

ChortleJan 14, 20159 votes

Fun is unique to the player. Some people thoroughly enjoy Cass as she is currently

junglerboy16Jan 14, 20154 votes

Oh, I'm not saying anything about how fun or unfun she is (I didn't play old Cass, and I still don't play new Cass). My point is that sometimes, Riot has to say that balance takes priority over fun if the fun in question (old Cass) was broken. New Cass could be the most fun champ in the game, but some people would still always want the old one, just like I wish I had sniper Xerath back. But both of their old kits were broken and un-fun to play against when strong, and miserably worthless when weak. It is probably for the better that they are changed, but for a select few, Riot always will have to put their foot down and say balance before fun.

Mr Wright IIJan 14, 20154 votes

so, wait,do you think, shifting power is gonna make her stronger? idc if they got rid of the CRD on her PASSIVE cause its worthless(but for her ult which you almost have up 24/7 cause you BUILD CRD?) make her e weaker, we are gonna be spamming it as is, aka, smart cast her q and e and you'll insta win the game

junglerboy16Jan 14, 20153 votes

What the Heck? I didn't say anything about her kit at all! I just said that it seemed like RIOT was saying it wanted to favor balance over fun for old school Cass lovers, I never said anything about them being right about her being balanced, just that Riot was probably right about needing to change old Cass.

Never in my post did I say ANYTHING EVER about making her stronger with these changes, all I said is that RIOT was attempting to make her less toxic.

The reading comprehension so OP...

OrbvJan 14, 20153 votes

The end goal wasn't "actually" to make her less toxic. They wanted to have something to add to the Shurima event and then add a playstyle they did not see in the grand scheme of the game. In doing so, they got rid of the identity of a champion that most people were okay with to have one that is very polarizing.

OJ191Jan 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Fun is unique to the player. Some people thoroughly enjoy Cass as she is currently

is that fair to the people who enjoyed Cass as she was though.

If a rework managed to make far more people enjoy her than previously sure, but you can't really say that at all for this one.

DryditchJan 15, 20152 votes

If you want to make that argument, stop talking about Cass, and start taking about Viktor, Skarner, Sion, and Karma.

Full scale reworks change champs. Accept it and move on, or waste your time arguing with a company that clearly doesn't want to keep champions in game if they aren't popular.

OJ191Jan 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If you want to make that argument, stop talking about Cass, and start taking about Viktor, Skarner, Sion, and Karma.

Full scale reworks change champs. Accept it and move on, or waste your time arguing with a company that clearly doesn't want to keep champions in game if they aren't popular.

I already did with Karma.

Skarner had issues where he was either too good or useless, and wasn't even changed that much anyway. It sucks for those who liked the permaslow playstyle, but it was necessary to allow skarner to actually be good (if only they would follow through with balance passes more often).

Sion was an unfortunate necessity because of his split playstyle. With the way it worked, it's not like an AP Ezreal where they can just tweak AP ratios if it becomes necessary, the AP playstyle was directly infringing on his AD and vice versa. Whether the AD hypercarry playstyle needed to go is another question, which I did speak out about, but it WOULD have been very hard to balance so I can't ENTIRELY fault Riot for losing it.

I'm not sure what your beef is with the Viktor changes, the most significant change of the entire rework was the change of his ultimate silence to a channel disruption, and the hex core changes which basically everyone who cared about viktor already agreed needed to be done in one way or another anyway.

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.'

DryditchJan 15, 20151 votes

Good points in rebuttal.

I'm a former AD Sion Main, and I am highly salty about the loss of my old ult.

Skarner is in a pretty good place, but people who mained him are still extremely angry.

I don't have a huge issue with Viktor, but again, people who used to main him have spoken out. (I honestly like where he is)

All I was saying was that if you want to go the route of saying "is it fair?" then you have to address all reworks, not just Cass's rework. It's the single argument that annoys me most about the Cass fanbase.

And yes, I know the poem. We read it every year on Yom Hashoah.

OJ191Jan 16, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Good points in rebuttal.

I'm a former AD Sion Main, and I am highly salty about the loss of my old ult.

Skarner is in a pretty good place, but people who mained him are still extremely angry.

I don't have a huge issue with Viktor, but again, people who used to main him have spoken out. (I honestly like where he is)

All I was saying was that if you want to go the route of saying "is it fair?" then you have to address all reworks, not just Cass's rework. It's the single argument that annoys me most about the Cass fanbase.

And yes, I know the poem. We read it every year on Yom Hashoah.

The thing is, old cass was loved by both the fang users and the poison users. It managed to pull of a happy medium of sorts.

While very strong with a skilled player, the mobility meta caused it to be pretty well balanced if not slightly underpowered.

But the main BS thing is that they changed it seemingly solely so that they could put her in a bloody shurima event and/or for lack of popularity.

And then instead of trying to get that happy medium back, Stashu kept loading more and more power into her twin fang. And then when people complained about that, instead of giving back more direct power to her poison he shoved more and more numbers down her throat until she's now widely considered to be borderline close to blatant OP.

Sion NEEDED a rework, that it went away from AD hypercarry is sad for people who liked that style, but some sort of rework did need to happen eventually for the sake of him having a cohesive kit and playstyle.

Skarner NEEDED a rework, tanky permaslow (note the emphasis on tanky, Ashe doesn't typically have the same problem because of how squishy she is, old skarner was already building tank AND got a ton of shields as well) is very unhealthy for the game (and for skarner) mainly because it's too binary - either skarner is tanky and damagey and speedy enough that he permaslows you to death, or he isn't and he sucks.

Viktor, I don't know how they came to the decision exactly, but pretty much every Victor player I knew (including myself) said that his hex core system could be better and should allow for upgrades in some way. We were sad to see his silence go but everyone has been losing silences so...

HawkefireJan 14, 201510 votes

Well I think it is safe to say that Stashu has now become the worst dev working at Riot. Downright disappointing, I had hopes that he would listen but it seems he went and actually turned out WORSE than RiotScruffy did (who seems to have learned somewhat from his mistakes with Skarner and Rengar).

I hadn't thought a dev could do worse than Scruff did during the early phases of the Skarner Rework, but congratulations Stashu, you done and did it. Nicely done, truly excellent phenomenal A-Grade work.

Now excuse me as I walk away from this keyboard shaking my head in disgust and disappointment.

JamareeJan 14, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Well I think it is safe to say that Stashu has now become the worst dev working at Riot. Downright disappointing, I had hopes that he would listen but it seems he went and actually turned out WORSE than RiotScruffy did (who seems to have learned somewhat from his mistakes with Skarner and Rengar).

I hadn't thought a dev could do worse than Scruff did during the early phases of the Skarner Rework, but congratulations Stashu, you done and did it. Nicely done, truly excellent phenomenal A-Grade work.

Now excuse me as I walk away from this keyboard shaking my head in disgust and disappointment.

What exactly is so wrong with the rework? Like legit? I don't see the problem, is it that she is more focused on one skill now?

HawkefireJan 14, 20156 votes

Communication is what is wrong with it, and most likely a very large helping of hubris. The rework significantly damaged an integral and important part of Cass's identity, even after the recent buffs.

People have been asking for the same thing ever since the rework began, and mind you, there was no warning when it began, it was simply launched with very little forethought or foresight. Yet during the entirety of this issue, those people have been largely ignored, or when they were responded to they were given blank, useless PR statements. I could make a very long list of what went wrong with this rework, and what is still wrong with it if you would really like me to do so.

JamareeJan 14, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Communication is what is wrong with it, and most likely a very large helping of hubris. The rework significantly damaged an integral and important part of Cass's identity, even after the recent buffs.

People have been asking for the same thing ever since the rework began, and mind you, there was no warning when it began, it was simply launched with very little forethought or foresight. Yet during the entirety of this issue, those people have been largely ignored, or when they were responded to they were given blank, useless PR statements. I could make a very long list of what went wrong with this rework, and what is still wrong with it if you would really like me to do so.

Well, they can't listen to the community 100%, because her fan base doesn't want her to be balanced, they want her to be a perfect champion with no flaws that can be played in every way. Listening to the community is necessary, but not blindly. I remember a few Cass players before the rework mentioning how they wanted her E to more so a focus then her Q, should we ignore them over other Cass players who prefer focus on her Q? You have to realize that you and the people who don't like the current direction aren't the only Cass players, what of the ones who truly prefer her more now more then ever?

AbyssphereJan 14, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Well, they can't listen to the community 100%, because her fan base doesn't want her to be balanced, they want her to be a perfect champion with no flaws that can be played in every way. Listening to the community is necessary, but not blindly. I remember a few Cass players before the rework mentioning how they wanted her E to more so a focus then her Q, should we ignore them over other Cass players who prefer focus on her Q? You have to realize that you and the people who don't like the current direction aren't the only Cass players, what of the ones who truly prefer her more now more then ever?

You are wrong. Her fans do not want her to be overpowered - right now I literally think she is too strong and don't want that because she will be murdered. She has some weaknesses that really shouldn't be there (stupid wind-up on ult) but any weaknesses taken away should definitely also have something taken away (i.e less damage, or something) in exchange. Nobody wants her to be stupidly powerful.

And the people who wanted more focus on her E pre-rework were wrong anyway. Her E WAS a big focus of her before it, it was the main reason she was such a lane bully (you could stay at long range gradually getting poked to death or you could go in close and get murdered in two seconds flat). The only thing Twin Fang needed to be a more popular playstyle was the QOL fixes she received but it was a perfectly viable first max, just as Noxious Blast was. The problem is that pre-rework both E and Q were catered to.

Noxious Blast doesn't necessarily need to be the focus of her kit but it should be of equal importance to Twin Fang, which it was before. But the rework has shifted massively in the direction of Twin Fang. Pre-rework the fans of both styles were happy but now only one is.

JamareeJan 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

And the people who wanted more focus on her E pre-rework were wrong anyway.

How is wanting the focus of power on one skill wrong as opposed to you wanting the focus of power equally between two?

5G8Nri0B54Jan 14, 20154 votes

I speak with bias but who the hell isn't biased in some way? Anyways, you look at this with only one perspective, and that is of a Spike. All Cass players opposed to this rework are...well...all the rest.

You're correct that some people would prefer Rambo over a Poison Mage. But what do you think Cassiopeia is supposed to be? The poison spreading poison mage? Or a nam vet trapped in a lamia's body?

In this case, the question stops being about whether the QW Cass would have been stronger or E Cass would have been stronger, but a question of which is more fitting of her fantasy.

Riot can appeal one group and give the other group the middle finger. In this case let us assume there is a draw in terms of balance and desire to be Sylvester Stallone or Semiramis.

But objectively, what isn't a draw is which of Cassiopeia's abilities, her style, fits her better.

Also, balance is a RED HERRING. ANYTHING can be balanced if Riot just puts the time to adjust the numbers properly.

A lot of us didn't give a rats ass how UP she was. None of us want her to be OP. You can fix that by shoving lots of numbers down her throat.

rinsujoJan 14, 20154 votes

As much as it sounds weird, No we don;t want our champs to be perfect (Former Sona main here. I feel you, Cassio mains. I feel you.) We want them to stay true to their identity as a champion. You can have a choice between E and Q - it depends on what you want to level. Case in point, Udyr. is his balance perfect? No. Can he be played as either Tiger or Phoenix? Yes. That's what Cassio players want - the ability to choose how they want to lane. Again, was Cassio perfect? No. Could she be played either way? I think so (I didnt play her, i'm not sure). Did she need tweaks? Not really - the issue was scripting (iirc), not the champion. Did that get fixed? Nope.

FluppetsJan 14, 201520 votes

There is a strong divide amongst Cassiopeia players between an E-centric and poison-centric playstyle.

Where Fangers like her risk/reward playstyle where poison is a facilitator to get in close and deal damage with Twin Fang, Poisoners like to play safe and poke from afar with Poison and enjoy whittling down an opponent, seeing their life tick away from poison.

Shared between Fangers and Poisoners is a disdain for a Passive that uses basic Stats (AP and CDR) to force a scaling on her. Delivered in a way that doesnt mesh with her gameplay and/or fantasy: stacks.

This discussion as well as her undertuning and bugs upon release of the rework have overshadowed the biggest and most positive of all changes: her QoL fixes, which are really big I cant emphasise this enough.

SmokingPuffinJan 14, 20152 votes

Really high quality summary of player feedback here. Kudos.

5G8Nri0B54Jan 14, 20154 votes

There is a strong divide amongst Cassiopeia players between an E-centric and poison-centric playstyle.

The most important thing to note is that both sides existed apathetically. The divide was always there, but just apathetic because one side's enjoyment had no bearing on the other side's.

The rework nuked one side to oblivion while the other side took the remnants of the nuked half to fortify their houses.

How OP or UP she was has ALWAYS been a Red Herring.

FluppetsJan 16, 20151 votes

True.

I do think the QoL fixes would've pushed the E-centric playstyle on the forefront anyway, regardless of the Rework.

Penguin EclipseJan 14, 20159 votes

Stashu is not even trying to communicate or listen. He simply does not care what the community thinks.

SmokingPuffinJan 14, 20157 votes

You said you'd keep working on Cass until she was as good as she could be.

Stashu has quite a good track record on continuing engagement with a rework post-launch. I don't think anyone at Riot has done it better, in fact.

Now you've got Rioters coming on the boards and saying they don't see the point in changing her because she's strong, and pre-rework Cass players are facing our worst fear. We were so scared that as soon as she became strong, Riot would say "B-b-b-but her win rate is good! So clearly you all love her! My work here is done!"

Cassiopeia can still use some tweaking, but that's what it's going to be. Riot isn't going to move away from the E-centric kit they've chosen. Expect tweaks to how the passive scales, maybe some power smoothing (less late, more mid?), but don't expect Riot to change their mind about nerfing Cass poison damage.

I think they are probably pretty content with the results here. That doesn't mean you will be, unfortunately.

Lo and behold, Stashu lied to Cass players again. Who would have friggin' thought.

Dude, devs are people. If you want people to help you, you can't be a well of negativity like this. You haven't even given him the space to fail to live up to your expectations, and you're already trashing the guy.

JamareeJan 14, 20156 votes

Well, they think she is good, and they think she is as good as she can be, so not really lying, you just don't like the current results.

AbyssphereJan 14, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Well, they think she is good, and they think she is as good as she can be, so not really lying, you just don't like the current results.

He specifically said he was going to continue working on her after 4.21 and it wasn't the finished Cass. Either he lied or he saw a stupid win rate and decided she's good enough. But win rate isn't what's most important.

JamareeJan 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

He specifically said he was going to continue working on her after 4.21 and it wasn't the finished Cass. Either he lied or he saw a stupid win rate and decided she's good enough. But win rate isn't what's most important.

There is still time, on top of the fact that she isn't going to be the same as before, that just isn't going to happen. While win rate doesn't mean everything sure, it is a step in the right direction, and having one over 50% is pretty good, anymore and she would become permaban in solo queue.

OysterothJan 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

There is still time, on top of the fact that she isn't going to be the same as before, that just isn't going to happen. While win rate doesn't mean everything sure, it is a step in the right direction, and having one over 50% is pretty good, anymore and she would become permaban in solo queue.

All I've ever seen asked for is that some power be moved from her frankly ridiculous E to her depressingly underwhelming DOTs.

Cuz1972Jan 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

He specifically said he was going to continue working on her after 4.21 and it wasn't the finished Cass. Either he lied or he saw a stupid win rate and decided she's good enough. But win rate isn't what's most important.

Yeah what's most important is taking all of our different and conflicting opinions and merging them all in one champ.

AbyssphereJan 14, 20155 votes

The sad thing is, now that Cass actually has a very high win rate you get all these people coming on the boards downvoting the Cass fans just because they want their OP champ. "I can get easy wins with her, leave her alone!!!". May as well be Lee Sin players.

I mean her power level WAS a big problem pre-4.21 because even if the style was good you can't have fun with constant losses. But her being strong does not solve all the problems with the rework at all and when she gets nerfed all the people who are happy with their OP champion are just gonna disappear anyway.

xl Kirito lxJan 14, 20155 votes

If she remains in her current state, she's just Ryze 2.0. Finding the best chain, then spamming it non-stop.

InbredFeederJan 14, 20154 votes

Cass is perfectly fine as she is.... are you asking to give her more power then, a MS passive boost, aoe slow, reset and aoe stun?

OysterothJan 14, 20155 votes

Nobody wants more power in her kit. People just want it shifted to a more balanced play style.

squirrelahJan 14, 20154 votes

cass is annoying as shit to play against if you are melee.

Earthlord JazzJan 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

cass is annoying as shit to play against if you are melee.

I remember one Rioter saying Cass has been pretty good top....I wonder why...

On another note, I'm a huge fan of both the old and new Cass since I primarily maxed E first and went Fang style. However, I completely respect all the other Cass players that maxed Q first and when poison style. It's almost like Cass had a divide in players, than one half got completely shut down. She was damn fun to play as and even I would find myself going poison route just to have a good time. I would lose more often, but I had immense pleasure in landing Q with old Cass. I do hope Stashu can find some way to enhance Cass' poison without having her go close for a "mano y mano" so others can get that playstyle again.

AbyssphereJan 14, 20153 votes

{quoted}

cass is annoying as shit to play against if you are melee.

...Welcome to mages.

rinsujoJan 14, 20152 votes

So is anyone else who's ranged. Unless you're zed/fizz.

doubleguacJan 14, 20154 votes

Can you elaborate on why you're not happy still? She's incredibly strong at the moment. Her power curve is much more manageable. She still does a lot of damage with twin fangs, but she has regained some of her DoT. What exactly is the problem?

Obviously the initial rework was awful, but Stashu has been very involved with the community trying to fix it ever since. At this point, I feel like people aren't going to be happy until the rework is just completely reverted. She's not going to be exactly the same as she was before. All things considered, I think Stashu has done a good job listening to community feedback and incorporating as much of it as possible into her rework.

yellowbricksJan 14, 20158 votes

{quoted}

Can you elaborate on why you're not happy still? She's incredibly strong at the moment. Her power curve is much more manageable. She still does a lot of damage with twin fangs, but she has regained some of her DoT. What exactly is the problem?

Obviously the initial rework was awful, but Stashu has been very involved with the community trying to fix it ever since. At this point, I feel like people aren't going to be happy until the rework is just completely reverted. She's not going to be exactly the same as she was before. All things considered, I think Stashu has done a good job listening to community feedback and incorporating as much of it as possible into her rework.

He did nothing to address the fun factor.

Stacking is not fun.

Pressing one button to do all your damage is not fun.

Having your other skills just be a thing to help you use your one damaging skill is not fun.

Being pidgeonholed into one skill order is not fun.

I don't care about her strength. Her passive could blow the enemy nexus up at 500 stacks and I would not care, because it's just not fun.

When asked to give the poisons some strength, he put it on the E for some retarded reason, making the overloaded skill even stronger and doing nothing about the real issue. He just threw numbers at his problem and it somehow worked because not many here actually care about anything other than what fotm champ they can ride to victory this week.

The Queen ViperJan 14, 20153 votes

{quoted} Can you elaborate on why you're not happy still?

Her passive is still bad... like, really really bad. If the stacking doesn't go, she will end up being a niche champion (like Nasus), even more so than what she was before the rework.

Not to mention, she's not a mid-laner anymore... she simply cannot compete there.

EfficientDynamoJan 15, 20152 votes

In addition to what other people have said about her power loaded E and weird passive, she is no longer useful as a zoning mage. You would intuitively think that a mage with 2 AOE DOT spells, one of which applies a slow and sits on the map for a bit, would be great for zoning. But her poisons feel like they only exist to set up other things (move speed from Q, slow from W, reset on E from both) rather than for actual damage. Who cares if you eat a Q or W if you are confident Cass can't get a couple E's in?

She definitely is reasonably powerful though. Although she isn't very good in the current meta favoring assassins, as her ult hitbox is very narrow close to her and isn't reliable if you get dove by a Fizz/Kat/Zed/Talon.

CaptnJakSparrowJan 14, 20154 votes

Cass is pretty weak until the 30-34 minute mark, then she power spikes into stupidity. OVerall though, she's pretty boring.

SexyTaylorSwiftJan 14, 20153 votes

Hello, I believe I have an answer to your question. After the rework, people bought Cass and skins. If they were to put any more effort into her, they would not sell her and skins to people that have already bought her. Therefore, they don't want to waste time on something that isn't going to give them maximum money.

warpenguin555Jan 14, 20153 votes

uhg another one of these...

atleast i can understand the nerf Lee Sin and J4 threads.

this comment has been hidden due to low rating from raging cass fans who dont realize nobody cares so they have to flood the boards to get attention

(pls downvote this im getting a skin if i get 15 downvotes)

AguamagicianJan 14, 20152 votes

no, give him nothing but upvotes. NOTHING BUT UPVOTES!

JunkοJan 14, 20152 votes

Didn't see that coming

5 Stacks GGJan 14, 20152 votes

cass is borderline op atm... the fuk you talking about?

are so bad that you need her to deal 10k dmg at level one??

Sire HippingtonJan 14, 20154 votes

this has nothing at all to do with how powerfull cassio is. It's all about the playstyle, the fantasy she delivers and if her current patterns and powercurve are good.

Rightnow, cassios lategame is damn overpowered, her early is strong vs melees, other than that she still doesn't feel great, so the powercurve isn't really great atm. She previously was a cunning poison mage that was great at zineing and kiteing, slowly withering enemys down and subtilely dealing alot aoe in clashes, with an optional but viable playstyle as twinfang-machinegun. Now only the machinegun path exists as viable option, while the other playstyle was much closer to her lore... The machinegun playstyle, especially with the new sutain on E, is more binary aswell, either you get focused and explode due to beeing extremly squishy and rather shortranged, or you shred everything appart(atleast lategame)

Also, her passive still neither fits any of those playstyles nor her lore(atleast not as much) and overall doesn't add much to her other than artificially bending her powercurve towards lategame while also makeing her more snowbally. in the end, the passuve is actually the main problem off new cassio, and stashu said he would work on it, as it feels not like building up power, but more like freeing your self from shackles, landing poison for stacks doesn't feel really rewarding, it rather feels punishing to miss it, and that is problematic.