@Stashu, Cassiopeia in 4.21 and beyond.

Scampy·12/11/2014, 7:04:42 AM·21 votes·2,268 views

So I'll get right to it. She's powerful. Like, probably overpowered. On PBE I could consistently all-in someone at level 2 with ignite and if they don't flash it's First Blood almost every time. Her early, mid and late game poke are crazy and if you land Q-E-E-Q on a target, they'll probably have to go back.

And this all really, really scares me.

Cass is strong, yes, but she isn't anywhere close to what she should be. I'm worried that you'll look at the play rates, win rates, and people saying "yeah she's alright I guess" and decide she only needs a few tweaks, then call it quits. She needs more than a few tweaks, she still needs a massive overhaul on the passive and Miasma, and more power shifted from E to Q.

So lets look at the two big ones then. The passive is still a chore, still unfitting, and even if you make it strong enough and change the bonuses to alter gameplay more than just stat-boosts and heals, it won't be enough. The absolute best version of a Cassiopeia kit would never have something so reduntant and boring as a stacking passive. You tried that idea, it didn't sail well, and now you're trying to patch the holes in it as the whole thing's filling with water. Your job is to make Cass the best she can possibly be, and keeping the current passive will NEVER give us the best version of an evil poison snake mage. You're holding onto this thing for the sake of holding on. People may say they like it more once she's powerful, but that'll all go away when she's nerfed. Where will you be then? Probably changing other cool passives into boring stacking chores cuz we'll totally learn to love it even though it's torturing us, amamrite? What kinda Stockholm Syndrome shiet?

Miasma sucks. It sucks super hard. It's barely used for zoning (as it should be) and almost always used to poison for CS or poison for poke. We already have a spell for that, let's see what other stuff Cass can do. Maybe it corrodes and deals increasing damage to people who stand in it for a long time, maybe the projectile is way slower so it's not as abused in poking but better for planned manipulation of the enemy. Some people may think this is a minor point, but I think Miasma being able to be used as a quick poison takes a lot of value away from the skill it takes to consistently land Q.

You're not even close to done, Stashu. You've addressed the power concerns, and that should hopefully tide us over until we get more substantial changes to the passive and E focused kit we hate. But power issues weren't the concerns most of us had. We want our poison mage back, and what we have isn't a poison mage. Not even close. She still plays the exact same way as before, only with more damage, which could very well be taken away and who even friggin' cares about the bonus damage if it's keeping the champ from being more fun, GEEZ. Like, imagine if Zed's passive instead made his autos do 500 true damage on hit. It'd be crazy strong, but literally every fun part of his kit would have to be nerfed into the ground to compensate. Sacrificing fun gameplay (Q-focused playstyle, managing Deadly Cadance, kiting around a teamfight, etc.) for power (slamming the E key over and over again) is so damn stupid. Why do we have to keep explaining this? It isn't that hard to understand.

Oh, and if you reply to this and only cut out one section of it and ignore all the stuff about the passive (which is like, the biggest, most important thing you need to change about her) LIKE YOU ALWAYS D0... Well c'mon man, it's rude.

29 Comments

chumbler12/11/2014, 8:11:57 AM12 votes

The only acceptable outcome of this rework is reverting it and apologizing.

What is actually going to happen is Riot will throw numbers at her despite the entire thing being the most godawful design short of Lee Sin that the game has ever seen, just to get people to shut up. Whereupon they will nerf her to an even worse state than she is in now. There was absolutely no intention of making Cassiopeia a credible pick with this rework.

yellowbricks12/11/2014, 6:13:16 PM5 votes

Still a one dimensional fang spammer.

Still a boring shackle stack passive. No matter how much you polish the turd, it's still a damn turd.

But at least I can just start the game, go eat dinner, and then Cass will have full stacks when I come back.

Jamaree12/11/2014, 7:12:21 AM5 votes

Wait, why would her power be shifted from her E to Q, I thought that is what Cass players preferred, her many damage on her E?

Elphrihaim12/11/2014, 8:02:57 AM4 votes

The reason why E-focused Cassiopeia play existed was because E-focused Cassiopeia has the highest damage output (re: optimal strategy is this) of all Cassiopeia styles.

Most people that I saw play Cassiopeia, on the other hand, would stick to staying back, poking with Q and preventing engages with W. Not particularly effective, but interesting to play against as well as more likely than not fun for the Cassiopeia player.

Then she would charge into us for some Es in hoping we might die, but we just killed her instead :3

But later her team shielded for her, and she basically E'd through half of our team's combined HP.

Which didn't feel bad too lose to because the end of that teamfight was two people for them after protecting Cass with their life (even the adc was doing it >

AdgharKH12/11/2014, 5:44:33 PM2 votes

If this free week has taught me anything, it's that at least Cass's new passive is more interesting than Galio's.

Chortle12/11/2014, 5:08:10 PM2 votes

Stashu already said that Cass is high priority at the moment and is nowhere near done.

I think he has been improving with taking the community's feedback into consideration and cooperating with Cass players.

Cass is strong, yes, but she isn't anywhere close to what she should be. I'm worried that you'll look at the play rates, win rates, and people saying "yeah she's alright I guess" and decide she only needs a few tweaks, then call it quits. She needs more than a few tweaks, she still needs a massive overhaul on the passive and Miasma, and more power shifted from E to Q.

The passive feels far less like a chore than it's previous iteration and actually pushes the Cass player to be more aggressive as opposed to her previous "farm minions with your abilities" passive style.

I do agree that Miasma could use some love, but the increased damage on her Q has helped her significantly early and mid while being super scary late.

I do think that the "increased poison damage" should have a different indicator when it takes effect.

AHeroNamedHawke12/11/2014, 6:38:31 PM2 votes

Because an arbitrary "I can't run out of mana while spamming" passive was super innovative right

I guess I should be complaining that Yasuo's kit is built around his Q and that his passive is arbitrary stats, because in order to do anything as Yasuo you have to spam Q and stack crit, and E is only for getting in range to spam Q, and you can't hang back in a fight and poke as Yasuo

You're complaining about a champion having a primary dps spell and it's fascinating

By the way, a 235 + 0.45 AP spell on a 3 second CD is extremely far from 0 damage, and instead of Miasma directly killing the target it zones with the threat of being poisoned, slowed and eating 700 E damage

Stashu made Cass strong again and evened out her power spikes, while adding to her "poison mage identity" (this is starting to sound more like "mage Ahri" aka didn't exist)

So just for the rundown: Her passive requires actual thought beyond "well I can hammer my keys and not go oom cool", she doesn't poke as hard but has an extremely strong all in, and she still does a lot of DoT with her Q

If you listen closely you can hear Olaf weeping

xJLx MCHammer12/11/2014, 7:17:58 AM2 votes

She isn't a poison mage u twat

Kingsgrave12/11/2014, 5:01:31 PM2 votes

I shouldn't be able to push people out of lane as a top laner that never plays mages. I also should never be able to destroy people just by spamming W and E at them. You can completely ignore her Q and still destroy people. That is super problematic.

Tik11512/12/2014, 7:29:17 PM1 votes

Not sure how much of a right I have to suggest this stuff since I don't play Cass (I'm more of an Azir/Anivia mid) but ima do it anyway

I'd like Stashu to try TWO smallish changes to Cass

  1. Return her Mana reduction ether by stacks or by leveling up a skill, Cass's old passive stacked up to 4 times right? I think? Well she has 4 points in her current passive it could be used for, 0-99 you could only have 1 stack of the mana reduction, 100-249 = 2 stacks of old passive etc, just put the mana reduction on a skill (which? dunno i'll let the actual cass players discuss that)

  2. take 30% AP scaling off her E and split it between her Q and W - So it would be Q has + 30%, W has + 25% and E has +25%, this is where a cass player shoots me down and tells me this will make her entire kit weak but ima still try to explain

Current Cass is a 1 trick pony, she can only do damage in a specific order similer to Urgot, Hit them with 1 attack then mass spam another, this makes them predictable and has the problem all cass players are saying, the power is just in one skill, what this would do is sure, it would weaken her E and her late game slightly (though the passive she has currently can easilly keep her in hypercarry damage) and gives her Q and W so much needed power turning her back into a poison mage.

That hypercarry mentality, no offense Stashu , is an incredibly dumb idea for a mage that could already carry hard while also being THE DOT mage (like how You say how Soraka is THE healer), hell to me old Cass was very similer to Karthus in terms of playstyle and we all know how powerful he becomes late game.

Skia Asteri12/11/2014, 7:51:08 AM1 votes

She is fine now.

Xela Syab12/11/2014, 11:46:02 AM1 votes

people care about cass?

Blazing Tenshi12/11/2014, 12:30:05 PM1 votes

Cass still cancer to low range champs in lane. Hit Q, get movespeed, spam E, their now dead.