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My thoughts on Rengar

Grizzlpaw··37 votes·2,775 views

(This is taken from a comment i made on Helmight's video)

I agree that Rengar should remain a diver and be ballanced around the diver subclass.

What players often forget is that, even in his pre-rework state, rengar was best played as a bruiser. Black Cleaver, Titanic Hydra, Warrior or Bloodrazer. These kinds of semi-damage off-tank builds did well because it only extended his time to kill by a second at most, but you would be able to survive a fight quite well alongside the tankiness from W. Attempting to balance Rengar as an assassin would, therefore, require changes that push him further from his previous state, as that version of rengar, while he could function as an assassin, was played most optimally as a bruiser.

However, this version of rengar presents its own share of problems. Balance and Gameplay are often at odds with one another. The former often affects how "fun" or frustrating a champion is to play agianst, while the latter affects how "fun" or frustrating the champion is to play as. This new version of rengar is arguably more balanced than the previous, but his gameplay took a massive hit.

A significant portion of his power budget was placed into an unsatisfying crit on his ult. Various delays were added into his kit in order to slow down his kill speeds, which adds to the feeling of clunkiness, Bonetooth necklace no longer offers interesting rewards, combos, which were once an integral part of his gameplay, are now non-existant.

To paint a picture of what's going on here. Imagine if, instead of tweaking Riven's numbers, riot decided to balance her by removing her animation cancels entirely, adding a delay to her stun, and placing more base damage on her Q instead.

The result is a much clunkier riven who loses much of her identity as a champion. Perhaps this rework would put her in a more balanced spot and make her more satisfying to face. It's likely that she would be forced into tankier builds that don't kill as quickly in order to get maximum benefit out of the new Q, but the resulting champion would not be Riven.

Our complaint is that this version of Rengar simply did not do his old playstyle justice. It's sluggish, unsatisfying, lazy, and the gameplay compaired to the original is simply awful.

39 Comments

DragonShea5 votes

Renger being a diver fits him better, People have been bitching about him being too squishy as an assassin or toxic. And then Riot is like "hey, why not make increase the time it takes assassins to kill someone to allow people a moment to react." and boom it meant he needed constant nerfs until he got boned. Divers have to jump in and can't really get out of combat. Kha'Zix of all people can stealth to give people the slip but rengar can't. So I think he fits the diver mold better because he doesn't have a proper escape ability. Just his Bola's for CC.

Warkinge1 votes

And a cast time on each ability. That's a diver thing also?

Grizzlpaw5 votes

The cast times are a poor design choice by Riot.

You can make a perfectly functional diver/bruiser with Smooth quick abilities. For an example, look no further than Jax. E has a delay, but you gain the dodge chance and AoE damage reduction immediately.

You can also make a perfectly functional assassin while keeping cast times to a minimum. Talon and Kha are great examples.

Kadius2 votes

The thing about Talon is if he wants to kill a target without his R, there is delay. That's the genius about his rework. You need both parts of W and a Q to proc your passive which is a required to kill a target. Your W has a delay however, this means Talon becomes a dueliist without his R and has counterplay. However with his R up, W Q R AA instant passive proc, instant deletion, instant assassination. That's how every assassin should be balanced. They need their ults to oneshot, otherwise they need time to kill their target.

Warkinge2 votes

And the Old Rengar needed his ult also. Well in truth even now you need it. But not for the same reason since ennemies are alerted 500 miles before you even think about killing them.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

kind of kills his lore. and his theme however.

Grizzlpaw1 votes

Not necessarily. Rengar isnt the type of person to kill his target immediately and fall over from the slightest touch. Look at his scuffle with the Razorback in his lore. He's looking to fight and take down the biggest, strongest pray. (Note: Not jusy the helpless squishy hiding in the back.)

Shablagoo1 votes

Isnt that a skrimisher type then? Why a diver?

yesnobanana2 votes

Actualy in the lore he watches carefuly his preym But he isn't afraid and maybe even preffer to fight him head-on after he studied him my best example is Khazix. They fought for hours without regar tiring so i think it will even be better in terms of lore.

Shablagoo2 votes

Bruiser Rengar was like one of the many play-styles, no one wants him as a brusier or a diver we want him as an assassin which was the main concern of the rework.

Grizzlpaw7 votes

Unfortunately, that's part of the problem. The bread and butter of Rengar's old kit was his Q. It was smooth, fluid, satisfying, gorey. Old Q was a great ability, but Riot themselves have admited that his old Q does not belong on an Assassin. It's an instant point and click nuke on an auto attack, meaning it can crit apply on hit effects such as lifesteal. It's an auto reset, and you can land it from stealth. No other assassin in the game has this kind of an ability, and for good reason.

Meanwhile, divers and bruisers such as Jax, Cammile, Fiora, and Wukong all have similar abilites to Rengar's old Q.

Additionally, Rengar, even with full AD builds, played more like a diver than assassin. He would wait on the main initiator to start a teamfight, flank from unsuspecting angles, and then dive bomb a squishy target with hopes of killing them. Unlike assassins however, Rengar had no reliable way back out of a teamfight outside of killing the primary damage threats or blowing flash.

If we want to change Rengar into an assassin, we'll have to accept changes that push him away from the playstyle of his original kit.

So the question is, do we keep pressing Rengar as an assassin, or do we make a compromise in hopes of getting something resembling old Rengar back?

BobaFlautist2 votes

How is Talon Q different from old Rengar Q, based on those perogatives?

Rengooo4 votes
  1. not a basic attack, doesn't apply on hits, can't crit (properly).
  2. not the primary/almost only damaging ability in his kit.
  3. much longer cool down (not spamable dps).
AH Submarine1 votes

But his Q was an auto attack reset and could apply on hits and crit.

Rengooo1 votes

I am referring to Talons Q.

yesnobanana2 votes

Add to your list: Its his gap closer so you mostly dont get it to crit.

flomper5 votes

{quoted}

Unfortunately, that's part of the problem. The bread and butter of Rengar's old kit was his Q. It was smooth, fluid, satisfying, gorey. Old Q was a great ability, but Riot themselves have admited that his old Q does not belong on an Assassin. It's an instant point and click nuke on an auto attack, meaning it can crit apply on hit effects such as lifesteal. It's an auto reset, and you can land it from stealth. No other assassin in the game has this kind of an ability, and for good reason.

Meanwhile, divers and bruisers such as Jax, Cammile, Fiora, and Wukong all have similar abilites to Rengar's old Q.

Additionally, Rengar, even with full AD builds, played more like a diver than assassin. He would wait on the main initiator to start a teamfight, flank from unsuspecting angles, and then dive bomb a squishy target with hopes of killing them. Unlike assassins however, Rengar had no reliable way back out of a teamfight outside of killing the primary damage threats or blowing flash.

If we want to change Rengar into an assassin, we'll have to accept changes that push him away from the playstyle of his original kit.

So the question is, do we keep pressing Rengar as an assassin, or do we make a compromise in hopes of getting something resembling old Rengar back?

Old rengar. I didn't main rengar to main an assassin I mained him because he was enjoyable and had a decent skill cap. Call it an assassin or a diver just whatever brings back the closest we could get to him.

Shablagoo1 votes

I can agree with some points but him having a fluid q doesnt need to change, why can't they keep the fluent nature of it while making it conditional like, talon's or kha( both being conditional where talons q isnt his main source of dmg and kha getting thee full dmg from being isolated). They literally didnt even try to make him an assassin, which is really what pissed me off, this new rengar wasnt even close to being an assassin. They could've made his q conditional played with his ferocity mechanic, bleed something idk, ppl say his q is his main source but his e is really significant too.

His w shouldve been made an escape, instead of a bruiser ability its what keeps him broaderline bruiser. If they want to keep his theme, then he should either be a hunter(assasin), or a skirmisher( for his love of fighting strong opponets and finding worthy prey).

I really dont like the diver playstyle for rengar because so many diver playstyles are so linear, that makes them either toxic to play against, having to be weak to be properly balanced, having to build tanky( before it was a choice now you have to build tanky, but now you its the only successful build), and ultimately reducing the skill cap that he use to have. Also rengar is a bad diver anyway his new kit is perfect for a diver yet no one enjoy's playing him, meaning the pure diver playstyle isnt something we enjoy regardless.

loli nukes2 votes

Honestly the biggest hit to a healthy assassin pattern was the huge nerf to rengar ultimate. I know the new q is not as satisfying as the old clue but the point of the change was to give a slight delay to assassin patterns. Current rengar ult notifys enemies way before you are even close, the movement speed isnt as impactful, you dont gain fury to start a combo, and they can see you. Giving rengar %total ad, cc immunity was a mistake of power budget putting it into things that don't honestly feel good as a rengar player. I'd sacrifice bonetooth for a more satisfying rengar ulti any day of the week

Shablagoo1 votes

Your right man, like to be totally honest Rengar's ult is useless it isnt even assassin like. Which really speaks on the point about how they barely tried to make him an assassin this update. The rengar we had before and the rengar we had prior really arent even all that different in play pattern.

Before I would say rengar was more assassin like because his ult was alot more stealth like along with his burst, but ultimately he was a diver. The reworked rengar was not even close to assassin like but even more diver like, they have already made him a full diver after this rework. Which honestly confuses me as to why ppl are actually asking for him to remain a diver, do they really enjoy this play style? The only reason ppl enjoyed prerework diver rengar was beacuse of the one shot, you almost for sure got the kill with his lvl of burst, Im not saying rengar was easy but once the combo was mastered their was little to no reaction time, which everyone even we rengar mains agree is toxic their were counters but it was still toxic. This new rengar has little to no assassin qualities he is a pure diver yet no one enjoys playing him.

Also nothing in his lore shows any sign of him being a diver hunters, dont go into things with no escape, hunters are more assassin like, his fighting of the strongest prey shows a more skirmisher play style to.

NefariousQuack1 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile, divers and bruisers such as Jax, Cammile, Fiora, and Wukong all have similar abilites to Rengar's old Q.

It's very important to clearly separate Divers and Bruisers as they are not the same thing. Furthermore, it is not right to generalise Diver's as not having potential for very high burst, because there are quite a few exceptions to this such as Diana, Wukong and Nocturne. Diver's can mean going in to disrupt and try to stay alive, or can mean going in to burst someone and try not to get caught. Diver's are champions that go in but don't really have a way out, they are not necessarily tanky.

Additionally, Rengar, even with full AD builds, played more like a diver than assassin.

Here again you view diver more as a bruiser than as an assassin, but the definition of diver is very wide and Rengar was much closer to the assassin side of the Diver spectrum for a very long time.

Rengooo5 votes

"We want him as an assassin". This is the issue, I don't think people quite understand the weight of this all to familiar comment, Rengars kit required (and still requires) pretty damn substantial changes in order for 'assassin Rengar' to be maintainable, his old kit just didn't obey the theoretical rules and perameters of what is required to be a 'healthy' assassin.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku4 votes

His old kit was a divers kit... and yeah most here don't understand what an assassin and what's a divers. they just think about One shot as an assassin thing.

Kadius1 votes

Diana can oneshot people and was moved from AP Diver identity to an assassin identity because Riot realised that's how people preferred to play her, AP assassin not AP bruiser diver.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

She's Diver too, but np.

Aatrox Camille Diana Elise Hecarim Irelia Jarvan IV Kled Lee Sin Olaf Pantheon Rek’Sai Renekton Rengar Skarner Vi Warwick Wukong Xin Zhao

euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/taking-another-look-subclasses

Poske2 votes

Le blanc is a kite mage by Riot autistic classing lets not follow it

I DASH 2 SCREENS AWAY KILL A TARGET IN A 1.5 SECONDS AND GET OUT

SUCH KITE MAGE MUCH WOW

Warkinge2 votes

I'v been playing Rengar since his release. And i'v played him full damage 90% of the time. The remaining is for Ap/Bruiser.

I'm okay with Rengar being a bruiser as long as this pathetic Q goes out. Plus if you argue him to be a diver i dont understand the point of the indicator with 4000 Range AND a 0.3 cast time on this "Q". I'm sorry but this champion is now a mess. He is locked between his R wich is somehow Assassin cuz of his ult being a stealth~gapcloser and somehow Diver cuz of his play style and the rest of his kit mainly the W.

Rengar should and used to be like all other divers. If you go full damage you can nuke someone but you will die instantly. Rigth now if you go full damage you will lack damage (That looks weired? Well that's the point of have the indicator + 0.3 +0.25 cast time on an "Assassin lul"). If you go full Tanky you will lack damage. The only way he can be played is by abusing his bullshit neakless wich grants him the abilitty to scale his AD with Warrior + BC. To take a look to another diver, Diana is in the same stuation as old Rengar, Yes if you go full damage (Glass canon) you can nuke the ADC but that's what you will do nothing more. Or Noctunre who has the same gameplay as old Rengar even the same idea of combos. Yes if you go full damage you will nuke the Adc but that's it.

The Rework is a big fail.

Plus i'm okay with Rengar called Assassin or Diver as long as the Q comes back.

Greenjey2 votes

IIRC right after the Rengar rework went live, someone in Riot said they wanted to get rid of the crit on his ult and replace it with a free empowered ability. I'm wondering why this change never made it to the PBE, this seems to be a step in the right direction.

Rengooo1 votes

Probably because it would bring back the old jump + empowered bola combo, that shit was brutal.

Greenjey1 votes

True, but to be honest its easy to deny the free crit/free empowered ability with good positionning now that Rengar have a camouflage and must jump on a specific target with a big-ass mark on its head to get this bonus, while old rengar could just stack the ferocity then jump on the squishy, no matter what.

Arrow132 votes

It would be great, if rengar would get his character back. He should be smooth like Riven and have a high skill cap. Clunkyness just results in frustrated rengar players quitting league.

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

Imagine if, instead of tweaking Riven's numbers, riot decided to balance her by removing her animation cancels entirely, adding a delay to her stun, and placing more base damage on her Q instead.

That sound glorious actually.

figold6661 votes

Want assassin? Lower base damage and raise ratios.

Want bruiser? Lower ratios and raise base damage.

Want Tank? Gut ratios and add knock back to all of his abilities.

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

It's not as simple as you think. For the assassin, if you make the ratios too high, he could still go bruiser, since the ratio increase would allow him a large gain in damage from a smaller investment in damage items which would in turn, allow him to fill his damage quota with fewer damage items (and fill the remaining slots with defense items).

For example, a 100 base damage skill with a ridiculous 1.0 AP ratio. You can easily get 200 AP while going bruiser for a 300 damage skill in the assassin's situation.

In the bruiser's situation, he may have a 200 base damage skill with a lousy 0.5 AP ratio. He goes for the same build with 200 AP and still gets 300 damage. Just that, he probably would have a better early game that's all.

And if you lower too much and increase too little, it would just be a flat nerf rather than a change, which is not the goal here.

loli nukes1 votes

agreed its not so easily, rengar I believe should be balanced around a diver because thats his gameplay. For most assassins their mobility budget can be used in many different ways (talon wall jump, zed w and r teleport, katarina consistant dagger jumps, kha zix e) and while yes some of those r best used to increase dps, it is more flexible then similar tools dive champs have. Rengars mobility is in his passive leap and ultimate which if used as an escape tool requires genius thinking with camps/plants or flat wasting your ultimate. And in the current game wasting rengar ult to escape is severely hindering to his gameplay and sets him behind. Rengar honestly needs a more satisfying ultimate and the diver gameplay is already built in with his w.

loli nukes1 votes

I think the biggest change rengar should receive is that ulting should grant a full fury bar, which would bring back the double q, and make him stronger, maybe weaken empowered q a little in response, but the ability to get damage off from the start and then react to whether u need to get out, chase, or continue doing damage can be made then. Would help with diving much better especially cause ult was just flat out worse post rework and what made rengar strong earlier this season was the sure raw stats he got from passive and the cc immunity. kha is just a better rengar as of now and if u want the global diver warwick is your guy. I play all 3 of these champs and it has made me sad I have had to drop rengar for more consistent champs.

toastMonkey1 votes

Balance and Gameplay are often at odds with one another. The former often affects how "fun" or frustrating a champion is to play agianst, while the latter affects how "fun" or frustrating the champion is to play as.

Well put.

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