Nerfing Thresh intelligently

The5lacker··5 votes·1,108 views

So it's been pretty apparent since his release that Thresh is good. Really good. Like, "Blitz only with a competently designed kit" good. And try as Riot has they haven't been successful at curbing this rather impressive juggernaut, despite their best attempts. And by best attempts I mean they've done some damage tweaking and nerfed his shield, the least important aspects of hits kit.

I know riot loves extolling the "buff the strengths, nerf the weaknesses" but that's a stupid method that only works in a world of pure numbers. Sometimes a champion's main strength can be too strong. And for thresh I think his core problem area is, and has always been, his Q.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we should remove the skeleton man's hook in its entirety. But there's one little feature that I've always been concerned about: his multiple pulls. Thresh's hook is, in addition to all of its other goodies, a 1.5 second stun. That's ridiculous. On top of his Flay this is an insane amount of lockdown from vision range, and it isn't something that's healthy for Thresh to have.

So, to give people a bit more breathing room while the bogeyman's got them, I'm thinking we remove his ability to simply hold on in favor of making the tether a bit longer and a bit more...slow-oriented.

Q - Death Sentence Hold Still! : Thresh's hook no longer stuns for 1.5 seconds, instead suppressing the target for the short initial pull (roughly 0.25 seconds). Tether now remains attached for up to 2.5 seconds and enemies are slowed by 40/45/50/55/60% while tethered. Enemies that go beyond 1000 range break the tether, but Thresh maintains vision of the tethered target while it holds. Short a few links : Range reduced from 1100 to 1000.

19 Comments

USG Morta1 votes

can thresh still reclick to jump on them? because if not then it loses its main uses of engaging.

The5lacker1 votes

I don't recall saying I removed Death Leap.

Sailor Mint1 votes

Compared to release Thresh, the current iteration is a shadow of his former self.

His matchups went from mostly favorable to almost entirely skill based. You can't be a terrible support and expect the champion's raw power to win the lane for you anymore.

The5lacker1 votes

Well that was because release Thresh had, in addition to a high degree of utility, really good base numbers.

And people need to stop defining "skill" as "dodging every skillshot" because by that definition Blitz is an entirely skill based matchup.

Sailor Mint1 votes

Well that was because release Thresh had, in addition to a high degree of utility, really good base numbers.

And people need to stop defining "skill" as "dodging every skillshot" because by that definition Blitz is an entirely skill based matchup.

Well, as far as Blitz is concerned, you either list his matchups are skilled based or unfavorable. A Sona that doesn't get hooked completely destroys Blitzcrank in lane.

Skill match up does in fact mean heavily punishable if you mess up.

Torm1 votes

I don't think they need to nerf his Q. Its a very slow wind up with a huge delay on it. Every time I get hit with a thresh Q I blame myself, not the thresh.

But I do agree that thresh is way too strong, and has been since release. I feel the unnecessary power is in his lantern, mostly because the enemy team has no way to stop him from getting clearly dead allies to safety at no cost.

I think the enemies should have the ability to break thresh's lantern by doing one of the following things:

  • Give it health
  • If an enemy grabs it, it dies
  • Three autos and it dies, like a ward
Sightless661 votes

the enemy team has no way to stop him from getting clearly dead allies to safety at no cost.

Stand on it. People can't click it if you stand on it.

Torm1 votes

I dont think that works anymore. You also used to be able to place a ward on it so people would attack the ward and not click the lantern.

Riot also removed that...

Sightless661 votes

It works. They removed the ward thing because that was stupid. A yellow trinket should not completely counter a skill. They did not remove the standing on it. I do this to people all the time and people do it to me all the time. Stand on the center of the lantern, and people can't get a ride.

The5lacker1 votes

Don't really see how that'd help at all as typically Thresh won't throw it at you for you to attack. It's usually a quick rescue over the wall.

Torm1 votes

It wouldn't be meant to stop thresh lantern every time, its so you now get a chance every time to stop him. For example a 1 second stun would give you enough time to break the lantern before an enemy takes it, giving counter play.

The5lacker2 votes

Counter play is only counter play if it's actually reasonable to pull off.

"Attacking the lantern that's going to be up all of three seconds from well outside of even your vision range" is not reasonable.

Torm1 votes

Why do you say the lantern is outside of vision range? Do you feel the only time a thresh lantern is used is by a thresh that is hiding behind a wall and throws the lantern directly on top of the player that needs it?

When I see a thresh throw the lantern, its normally a little out of reach because the thresh, like the player, is trying to escape. If there is that moment where the player has the run to the lantern, you now have a real chance to stop them.

Do you really feel making the lantern breakable would not reduce thresh's power?

Sightless661 votes

So, first, having a tether that is equal to the cast range of the skill is generally a bad idea. It makes it way, way too easy to break. I know he has a short pull, but since you're lowering the pull distance, it really is barely displacing them. If it's going to be valuable, it needs to be something that isn't easy to casually walk out of, let alone counter completely with mobility skills.

Second, that's a pretty weak skill. It obviously majorly guts his initiation by lowering the stun and displacement, it guts his laning because a slow is nowhere near as good as a stun, and it significantly hurts his peel. It's also adding another slow onto a kit that already has two. That's just boring. And why lower the range if you're making it a mediocre initiation skill? It already won't be effective against anyone with a dash. Making it shorter range is just adding insult to injury.

If Thresh really needs nerfs, we should test that "Thresh would be played if he didn't do damage" thing people keep saying, because right now his damage isn't exactly bad. Do what we did to Blitz. Cut base stats and damage until he's a liability in sustained trades, not an asset. That allows him to maintain his playstyle, still be useful, and most importantly still be fun (let's be honest, your rework idea isn't really aimed at that). Mess with the E passive numbers and hit the pretty high damage the ult does.

The5lacker1 votes

It still has the initial pull to get them within the tether range.

Don't see how it's a week skill as it still has the jump with is both the focus and main strength of the skill. The 1.5 second stun was not the main strength of the skill. It was an excess strength that needed to be trimmed.

How does my rework make him "less fun?" I've removed his ability to lock someone down for 1.5 seconds with a single ability in favor of a longer tether to grant a wider range of engagement for him.

Sightless661 votes

The initial pull happens over more than .25 seconds. You'd be lowering the distance significantly. More than enough to walk out of or use a mobility skill our of easily, before Thresh can actually get to someone with his jump. You'd need to significantly increase the speed of the pull in order to have it cover the same distance. I don't see the 2.5 seconds of slow realistically being used against anyone who has any mobility skills, unless they were advancing into them. To give a comparison, think of Karma's tether. It has the same tether range as cast range, and it sucks for initiation even though she has a slow and a speed boost to help it. The reason is because it's easy to quickly break the tether even with basic movement. You need a significant positioning advantage on them to get it off unless it's being used defensively. Thresh's lowered pull wouldn't give him this kind of advantage.

The 1.5 second stun was a major, major, major strength of the skill. First, it serves as disruption in fights. Second, it actually is a major component of initiations, as it gives more time for your team to begin reacting, and for you to actually jump to the target (if you jump and he moves, you follow him). The stun is a major focus of why his initiation works. The jump into flay is significantly weaker for engages than the actual stun portion of the skill, because the stun is actually more effective at preventing movement and escape than the flay is.

To make this clear, I think you significantly underestimate Thresh's travel time when he jumps in. With the lowered displacement and stun time, it's going to be much easier for enemies to get out before Thresh can get in. It will also be much easier for them to get out even if Thresh jumps and flays, because they'll be further away from the follow-up and they'll have an extra 1.25 seconds to react. That's a lot of time to escape. If they have a mobility skill, that extra slow Thresh has won't be a factor.

As for less fun, the way I see it is that you're majorly gimping his initiation potential. You have absolutely not granted him a wider range of engagement. You've granted him a defensive slow. The most effective case will be using this to help someone kite away, not using it to engage. That's what tether abilities do. They work for zone control, but Thresh already has multiple abilities that work for that. This just cuts his initiation and hard disruption potential in exchange for something he already does more than well enough. That's fucking boring.

In order to make your idea work, you'd need to increase some combination of the initial displacement, the tether range, the actual effect, his jump speed, the strength of his flay, and the skill range. One thing I can tell you is that you have no justification for reducing the cast range if you're so thoroughly gimping the initiation potential. If anything, the range should be going up.

If you want to hit excess strength, hit damage. It's still high because it's barely been touched. His autoattack range could be reduced to make it much more risky to use his E passive. Let him be punished for missing a hook like Blitz is instead of still being able to trade well. Gimp those, not his core mechanics. It worked for Blitz, it can work for Thresh. If anything needs to be done with his hook, I could agree that the stun going to 1.25 seconds might be reasonable given the strength it gives in lane fights. Major reworks to cut his initiation potential aren't needed.

I read your changes, and I get the impression they're from someone who doesn't really care how the champion plays, just how they play against. That kind of balance is how we end up with Olafing and Skarner reworks. Breaking core mechanics and gameplay patterns is not nerfing intelligently. It's taking the easy way out. I'm sorry if that sounds kind of harsh or mean. I don't intend it to be, but I do think it's a game design trap that too many people take when trying to balance, and it's led to some of Riot's worst mistakes.

USG Morta1 votes

I both agree and disagree, his ult already received a nerf in that the damage only applies to the first person to break a wall, changing it from a teamfight monster damaging ult into more of a primarily cc ult, he also can no longer shield his whole team with his lantern. I think if they lowered the numbers of the passive on flay i would like to see the shielding for all team members in range returned.

Sightless661 votes

There wouldn't be a reason to. The point is if he is OP and needs nerfs, this is a good area to touch because that ult change was his most significant damage nerf so far. Returning the AoE shield would not be needed if we are trying to nerf him.

BeatzBoyFTW1 votes

As if "hide behind a minion or juke his Q" isn't enough, but fine, rework his Q. Jeez...

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