Lissandra's passive

For Carthage·Dec 23, 2014·18 votes·2,799 views

While Lissandra has been doing pretty good as of late, her passive still remains... stupid, to be blunt.

Is there any news on when Riot might actually change it?

58 Comments

Kowe The EwokDec 23, 201413 votes

It's hilarious, every mage had their base maga regen increased with patch 4.20. But not Lissandra because of her Passive.

How about we reduce the range of of Rengar's flash? I mean, his passive allows him to jump doesn't it? / sarcasm

killd0zerDec 24, 20142 votes

Her passive is definitely tacked on and weak, but lol that was a horrible comparison.

GundayMondayDec 23, 20145 votes

You sure? Her passive lets her spam glacial path to travel around the map without dipping into her mana. Nice for extending your laning phase since smart players won't go oom. Also lets her defend against extended sieges late game while clearing with well timed ice shards. Definitely lets you land a few extra abilities once you E -> R -> W into fights since you're not worried about the mana costs. Think it fits pretty well personally.

For CarthageDec 23, 20149 votes

You build any mana regen or RoA and you generally never worry about mana again. It's all right in lane, and it's kind of nice, but once the late game hits, I never feel like it's impacting a thing.

GundayMondayDec 23, 20145 votes

Yeah, it's one of those "hidden strength" kind of things that people don't notice. Watch a game in spectate mode and keep track of here mana and ability costs. She's a burst caster, so she'll jump in and blow a lot of mana at once. Her passive makes it so she can get ~2 spells for free if she's at half mana when the fight starts (Maybe you just had a really long dragon dance and then your support gets caught starting a 5v5 or something). Passive makes it so that a good lissandra can jump in with E for free, land her spells and keep spamming without fear (if she's landing them) of running out of mana.

Not saying that it's game-breaking OP or anything, but her passive + mana regen items make it so she'll never be caught without mana for her spells in extended team fights.

Sightless66Dec 23, 20146 votes

I'd rather have standard regen and mana costs, and then just have another passive. What it does is not really majorly different from having lower costs. That would almost completely eliminate the need for the passive in lane. By the point teamfighting comes around, I'm not really feeling any mana problems on most champions anyway, and I'm not really convinced I'd be having problems with Lissandra even if I didn't have the passive.

So, in answer to your earlier question: Yes, I'm sure that I'd like another passive.

GundayMondayDec 24, 20142 votes

If you say so. There is a little bit of hidden power there though. Guarantee you'll see it if you spec a few random lissandra games and keep an eye on mana costs + available mana pool. I'm not trying to say I'm right or wrong, just that I like it as is. If that's a non-issue for you then by all means push rito for another passive.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 23, 20141 votes

implying mana management is ever an issue post-laning phase

GundayMondayDec 24, 20142 votes

You don't have that problem? I see it all the time.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 24, 20144 votes

Unless you're Anivia or Swain, it kinda stopped being an issue by level 30.

GundayMondayDec 24, 20142 votes

Cool man. You're better than a lot of the diamond players I play with/against every game. Good for you!

Deep Terror NamiDec 23, 20142 votes

How is it stupid? Free mana means you don't need Athene's as much as most other mages.

5G8Nri0B54Dec 23, 20142 votes

implying you needed Athene's to begin with

Deep Terror NamiDec 23, 20141 votes

No, implying that other mages don't generate mana as well and need help.

AveriaDec 24, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valkyrie Witch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEqRasMQ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2014-12-23T16:33:47.882+0000)

How is it stupid? Free mana means you don't need Athene's as much as most other mages.

The long cooldown, her naturally high mana costs and the prerequisite to make the cooldown lessen really punishes her. Especially since 2 of her spells are on insanely long cooldowns on top of all that.

Deep Terror NamiDec 24, 20141 votes

So it's not "stupid" as in poor design, you just think it needs a CD decrease? "Stupid" is not a very good way to describe it if that's what you think of it, so I don't think that's what the OP meant. That or he needs a dictionary.

Sightless66Dec 24, 20142 votes

It's stupid because even if the cooldown was lowered, it is only made necessary by the other elements of her kit. I only need it in lane because the initial mana cost on her Q is stupidly high and her mana regen is literally the lowest in the game. I don't need it outside of lane, at all. The only way it would work is if the cooldown was low enough to essentially make her manaless. I don't think it needs a cooldown decrease, because I don't think that will make it any more useful unless it literally made me able to spam with no risk of going oom at all.

Here's the problem with the passive for me: I think they could completely remove it, and if they normalized her mana costs and regen, I wouldn't even notice. I could replace it by just giving her what other mages have, and there would be no difference because all it serves to do right now is. Even if the passive didn't exist right now, I don't think I'd care. People build RoA on her anyway for the stats. I'm not exactly going to be upset if that becomes the only option instead of the main one.

The only reason the passive exists is to justify the unusual mana costs, which only exist to justify the passive, and the end result is that her actual gameplay and decisions are barely affected at all. Neither is necessary without the other, and the end result is neutrality. That is "stupid" as in very, very poor design.

Deep Terror NamiDec 24, 20141 votes

So her passive is a necessary part of her kit. What's your problem?

AbyssphereDec 24, 20145 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valkyrie Witch,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QEqRasMQ,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2014-12-24T13:05:57.495+0000)

So her passive is a necessary part of her kit. What's your problem?

The whole reason people dislike the passive is because it's not necessary. Most passives are hard to replace on a champ. What do you do with Syndra to replace her passive? Remove Lissandra's passive and all you need to do is give her standard mage regen and she's fine. Lissandra's passive is disliked for the same reason Cass's new passive is disliked - the very strength it gives her is completely neutralised by other stuff being taken away. It's like giving a champion below average movement speed and a passive that gives them +10 MS. Pointless.

killd0zerDec 24, 20141 votes

Don't get me wrong; her passive is pretty shoehorned into her kit, is kinda weak, and doesn't really need to be there thematically. She could definitely use a better passive.

That being said, you can't deny that giving her a better passive would be a buff, ESPECIALLY if her mana costs/mana regen is adjusted for not having a passive that gives free casts. Lissandra in her current state doesn't need buffs, so right now if she gets a change, she'd need a nerf somewhere else.

I'm all for a change if she falls out of favor, but this isn't the time to give her a strictly better passive.

Deep Terror NamiDec 24, 20141 votes

Does she need a buff? You can say "add anything" and of course it's a buff. That doesn't mean she needs it. Y'all are asking for buffs and not considering balance. This is why Riot makes the changes and not the community.

Deep Terror NamiDec 24, 20142 votes

He just told me "it is only made necessary by the other elements of her kit"

Now you're telling me "it's not necessary".

Which is it? You guys are clearly extremely biased and either using facts only when they suit you, or are straight up lying to feel like you're right.

Sightless66Dec 24, 20141 votes

There are two other options. First, that quote could be only a small part of a larger context (that being, the other element of the kit is only necessary to support the passive, and the net result of both of them is neutrality, making them both unnecessary because they are only necessary for each other but they do not change the kit at all), and second, he might just disagree with me because nothing says we have to be of the same mind on everything. There is no "you guys" here. We're not writing these together. His opinion and rhetoric can be different than mine.

Sightless66Dec 24, 20141 votes

I'm not saying that. Let me be a little more clear. I'm saying that the passive and the changed mana costs/regen are both unnecessary for the kit, that those two elements are only necessary for each other, and both could be completely removed while minimally affecting the kit. I say that it could be completely replaced with stat changes, and that the only reason it is necessary is to justify the unusual mana costs and terrible regen, which in turn only exist because of the passive, and the end result is an almost completely neutral effect on actual gameplay. Get rid of both, and nothing would change.

To be honest, necessary isn't even the best word in that context. I also say that even if it was just completely removed, all it would mean is that RoA becomes a must-buy instead of a usually-buy. In either case, it isn't necessary by any means. From a design standpoint, the passive really contributes nothing of worth.

So, my problem is that I think it is worthless from a design perspective because it only exists to completely balance out another change from the norm, with the end result being no significant change to my gameplay from having either one.

I think the only argument against a new passive is the one you most recently came upon. Any new passive she could get would almost certainly be more impactful and useful than her current one. Anything she could get would buff her, and she isn't really in a position to be buffed. So, we have to preserve poor design because any better design would be stronger. That's a fair argument, but of course it only works because we can acknowledge that her current passive contributes almost nothing and is unnecessary to her kit, so anything that might actually jive with her kit would be stronger.

Deep Terror NamiDec 24, 20141 votes

I doubt she's the only one with a passive that merely covers the weaknesses built into their kit. Xerath is basically the exact same thing as Liss. I just don't see what is so wrong about it.

Sightless66Dec 24, 20141 votes

Xerath's active regen is a bit more interesting than Lissandra's, particularly since it offers very high rewards under certain circumstances (autoing enemy champions), enough so that it gives him more opportunities. He also doesn't pay a major price for his increased power It's not covering a weakness; it's adding a strength that is conditional on taking a risk. I get to poke more if I put myself at risk. Not amazing, but at least slightly interesting, and even if I don't take it, I still have the same regen and mana potential other mages have. I get some interesting synergy that can put me above other poking mages if I take a risk. That's interesting.

As for Lissandra's passive; First, it isn't covering a kit weakness, it is covering a stat weakness that only has to exist because there is a kit strength, with the end result being no change. That's why I dislike it so much, because it could just not exist and I don't think my play would change significantly. It's boring. It means very little in lane because the extra casting it gives you is balanced out by large costs and shitty regen, and it means almost nothing later on because she doesn't have a mana-intensive playstyle that necessitates it. It doesn't synergize with her kit, it doesn't give her any extra opportunities, it and the mana costs are only there to fill the passive slot.

Deep Terror NamiDec 24, 20141 votes

Having a free cast every X seconds means you probably make sure to go aggressive and use it immediately each time it is ready. It is interesting if you take that into consideration; just the same as Xerath trying to get in closer for an auto on a champion for bonus mana.

Sightless66Dec 24, 20141 votes

The passive may technically do something, but it's not really any different for me from just having mana regen and costs normal. It doesn't really increase my spell output because the early mana costs and regen is really crippling for sustained casting, and it is easy for my opponent to force casting while the passive is down (lest I get outtraded). It also doesn't really give me any new windows for fighting. Xerath's is much more interesting because it encourages something that otherwise wouldn't be part of the kit, and there is much more potential to get an actual reward, something that really benefits you. Lissandra's just isn't as interesting because of how much her stat weaknesses offset the potential for any actual gains. Like I said before, I think that if it was completely removed and her mana costs were normalized my gameplay wouldn't really change much.

Deep Terror NamiDec 24, 20141 votes

Maybe. But hey, I'm just here to be the one guy that provides a counterpoint. It's often misconstrued as being an asshole, but someone has to do it.

Sightless66Dec 24, 20141 votes

I'm not calling you an asshole. I also don't think that providing a counterpoint just for the sake of a counterpoint is very valuable. They do have to be strong counterpoints, and some of the very brief responses don't spark any valuable discussion. I mean, what did we cover here? "Lissandra's passive might be kind of interesting". "No, it really isn't because of X, Y, Z". Repeat same arguments 3 times. Also, doing things like accusing people of being liars isn't a counterpoint.

Deep Terror NamiDec 25, 20141 votes

I didn't say you called me an asshole.
No, I don't need a strong argument. I don't need any evidence or any persuasive power beyond making you consider the alternatives. This is an extremely important role in politics. Saying it has no importance is ignorant.
One person tells me one thing, then another tells me the exact opposite yet they both claim to agree. One of them is therefore bullshitting.

Also, everything you stated "X Y Z" was all opinion of your own. Why are you stating it as if it were a fact and not personal opinion simply because you went into detail about it?

Sightless66Dec 25, 20141 votes

I'm not saying "X Y Z" as if it was a fact, I'm saying that I said it over and over again because your argument didn't make me consider alternatives because it didn't respond well to what I wrote. I pretty much said the same thing over and over again, and you tried to use as short of a response as possible to address whatever I said. That's not making me consider the alternatives. It's not a socratic dialogue or any other argumentative technique used to try to come to logical conclusions. It's just being contrary for the sake of being contrary. You need good alternatives in order to make someone consider alternatives.

So, yeah, you don't need strong arguments if you just want to talk, but you aren't making me think about anything without them.

yet they both claim to agree

Where did we claim that? I'm not aware of any association with him. Have I been drinking too much? We didn't even really disagree though. I made a point and I didn't express it well enough so there was a misunderstanding.

ShmarmDec 23, 20142 votes

Riot has said they have been doing internal tests on a bunch of different passives for Lissandra but none of them seem right or satisfying. They want to make sure if/when they change her passive it is a change that players will actually like rather than just putting in a new passive that's as bad as the first.

Ridley PrimeDec 24, 20142 votes

I really like her passive. Fits with her character. Early on it makes your q a little more spammable, and mid-late game its this subtle advantage cushion that prevents you from running out of mana. Someone jumps on you while you have your passive and ult up, and you just save 100 mana and can continue your combo. It's something cool I just love about lissandra, that I almost always can cast a full combo. Plus as you're landing team-wide slows and snares you can even get two free spells.

If any of you play Magic it just feels like having a Sapphire Medallion. This subtle advantage Lissandra can rely on, like she's been planning for this all along and her contingencies always allow her to bring her schemes to fruition (pulling off her full combo).

ImpendingDeathDec 24, 20142 votes

Like most Riot balance changes, they'll promise something for months and then never deliver.

Slushi SimcambiDec 25, 20142 votes

Do you really want to attract Riot's attention to Lissandra right now?

Really?

After seeing what they have been doing to the poor Cassiopia mains I think we are better off letting Lissy GaGa have a mediocre passive than getting "Rebalanced" by Riot.

Is it super impactful? No, not really.

But it isn't hurting her, and she is in a pretty ok place right now so let's NOT rock the boat.

Edge of DaybreakDec 23, 20141 votes

Now that she is being played there is no chance of her getting a buff.

Ariel the CruelDec 23, 20142 votes

Riot talked a while back about replacing her passive with something that better suited her all-in play style. The possibility of a shield was mentioned.

However, this change would not have been intended to buff or nerf, hust power shift. Of course, after that discussion they nerfed her damage across the board and lowered her Q cooldown, so she could poke better. (>_>)

ThighlanderDec 23, 20141 votes

Reducing her Q cd and leaving the damage the same increased her dps. (They did nerf her W damage at the same time, but not in the same proportion.)

AlorasenceDec 23, 20143 votes

{quoted}

Now that she is being played there is no chance of her getting a buff.

That isn't what anyone is asking for. A change to a boring passive does not equal a buff by neccessity.

Edge of DaybreakDec 23, 20147 votes

{quoted}

That isn't what anyone is asking for. A change to a boring passive does not equal a buff by neccessity.

Yes it does. What useful passive wouldnt be a buff to her? Her current passive sucks. Giving her an equally useless passive wont do anything and if it isnt useless then it would be a buff.

AlorasenceDec 23, 20141 votes

{quoted}

Yes it does. What useful passive wouldnt be a buff to her? Her current passive sucks. Giving her an equally useless passive wont do anything and if it isnt useless then it would be a buff.

ur not worth arguing with. you just set up a straw man. go waste someone elses time

killd0zerDec 24, 20144 votes

She's strong with a weak passive. If she gets a better passive, she'll get stronger. What's not to understand?

RespaktDec 24, 20141 votes

Essentially, she has no passive currently. People aren't asking for a better passive but for a legitimate passive.

killd0zerDec 24, 20141 votes

"She has no passive, so give her one it wont be a buff prmisseee XDDDD"

Boards somehow manages to have a more inept user base than old GD.

AbyssphereDec 24, 20144 votes

{quoted}

"She has no passive, so give her one it wont be a buff prmisseee XDDDD"

Boards somehow manages to have a more inept user base than old GD.

I think the general wish is for an engaging passive first. If the passive is obviously good then power can be taken away from elsewhere. It'd be the same situation for Zyra if she got a more active passive. Right now the balance of power in Liss's kit isn't very even, with her 4 very powerful skills making up for a subpar passive. But she'd have to lose something for the buffs a new passive would bring (which would be tremendous).

Considering Lissandra is really good right now I'm not overly eager for her to be changed though. It'd be a mini-rework in itself and I just don't trust Riot not to destroy her. I'll take Iceborn over Aspect of the Ice Witch any day.

killd0zerDec 24, 20142 votes

This is the correct approach to the situation.

SpecterVonBarenDec 24, 20141 votes

{quoted}

She's strong with a weak passive. If she gets a better passive, she'll get stronger. What's not to understand?

Zyra and Kog apparently have their death passives because they are immobile but have incredibly high damage (I remember a Rioter saying this) basically they have these passives that only do something when they have technically lost because they don't need more power in a passive, so instead they have a way to take revenge on someone that manages to get to them. This is an example of someone being strong with a weak passive that makes sense in terms of how the champion works.

Compare Lissandra with Veigar and Xerath as well. Veigar's passive makes sense for his kit, Veigar wants to use a large portion of his mana farming minions with his q, so having a passive that helps him keep his mana up makes sense. Xerath's passive is meant to keep his power in check, its to make it so he is encouraged to auto minions and the enemy champion in particular so he can't just stay in the back line all day spamming skills.

Now I ask you this, what is the purpose of Lissandra's passive? How does it aid or keep her power in check like Veigar's or Xerath's? To me, it's like Sightless said, the passive exists because of her high mana costs, which exist because of her passive. This kind of logic for a champion kit makes no sense.

killd0zerDec 24, 20142 votes

That was a whole lot of words to say nothing.

If she has a weak passive, and she gets a better one, it's a buff. The end.

RespaktDec 24, 20141 votes

The passive could limit her in someway such as the example he provided of xerath. It doesn't have to be a buff.