MF is nearing that dangerous level

OneMustFall·Oct 12, 2016·15 votes·4,681 views

So for me the general indicator as to whether a champion is starting to become unbalanced is once they break that 55% win ratio. Generally when we see a champ near this WR the boards go crazy (Kogmaw and Yasou recently) however both were sitting at 54%. Well Miss Fortune is now at 55% in every elo and has been the #1 ADC the last couple patches.

While I don't generally think MF is that out of whack and I'm ok with her being on top of the leaderboards, I do wonder why this is the case. I feel like currently, it's very easy to set her ult up as a team and just straight up win fights with her ult. Does any one have any ideas as to what is making her so strong currently and ways to bring her back into line with other ADCs?

Let's talk Miss Fortune.

77 Comments

RequiemsfireOct 12, 20163 votes

Miss fortunes armour pen build item 3142 item 3147 item 3071 Basically this gives her the ability to one shot someone, while granting her ult armour shred which means she'll shred the entire enemy team's armour if they survive her ult.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 12, 20163 votes

ADC's shouldn't even be building Duskblade, it's not meant for them at all. (If you disagree, look at the patch notes. Riot specifically said it was made for underperforming assassins, such as Kha and Talon, not freaking marksmen or strong assassins like Zed).

OneMustFallOct 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

ADC's shouldn't even be building Duskblade, it's not meant for them at all. (If you disagree, look at the patch notes. Riot specifically said it was made for underperforming assassins, such as Kha and Talon, not freaking marksmen or strong assassins like Zed).

The problem is the item has so much AD on it there's no reason why a Markman wouldn't build it. So whether Riot intended it for Assassins or not, it would be naive to think ADCs wouldn't build it too on their part.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 12, 20163 votes

That's Riot's bad move on their part. They always give their love to the AD side and completely botch the AP. They needed to tone down the AD on it and marksmen wouldn't be abusing it. Hopefully the upcoming changes will deter marksmen, Zed, or any fighter/juggernaut from ever building it again.

RequiemsfireOct 13, 20161 votes

There's nothing wrong innately with juggernauts or Zed building Duskblade. In fact I don't think most juggernauts really want duskblade because of what the passive does.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 13, 20161 votes

I've seen a Riven take it occasionally but Zed should NOT be building that. It's not fair to any one who has to go against him because 1) it's not meant for him and 2) it gives him an extra ult pop damage, so he abuses it. Oh you Zhonya thinking you saved yourself? Nope, he just kills you with Duskblade right after.

RequiemsfireOct 13, 20161 votes

What you described as dusk blade killing you after zhonyas is literally impossible. Also every assassin can function effectively without dusk blade, Talon, khazix, rengar basically obliterate you in a single rotation.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 13, 20161 votes

It is possible! For example: He ults you, you Zhonya before death mark pops, he stays in range/moves into range/flashes back onto you, Q-W or whatever combo plus AA and bam dead if you haven't flashed out yet. Anything is possible, really, especially with a champion that has so much safety and no risk at all.

RequiemsfireOct 13, 20161 votes

yeaah umm, he could kill you like without duskblade, hell there's no reason for him to flash, he'll just stand next to you, use his W, and then hit you with his entire combo and you'd still die with or without duskblade.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 13, 20161 votes

If you had read my comment thoroughly you would've seen that I had said flash was an option, just like standing there, getting into range, or what not. Duh. I'm talking about getting a kill with duskblade after he does his combo and you Zhonyas.

Good Lord.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

RequiemsfireOct 13, 20161 votes

And I hope you realise that Zed's getting the kill in your scenario with or without duskblade so your example doesn't make sense. It doesn't actually attribut

For him to make full effective use of the duskblade's passive he has to purposely avoid auto attacking before you zhonyas, not only that but theoretically if you timed it right it basically negates all of Zed's ult because it ticks for 2 seconds while zhonyas ticks for 2.5.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 13, 20161 votes

Again, for the love of Christ, I am saying yes you negate his ult with Zhonya's. I'm just saying that HE CAN KILL YOU WITH DUSKBLADE after you use it, and yes he can KILL YOU AFTER WITHOUT DUSKBLADE.

Oh my freaking God.

AmazoXOct 14, 20161 votes

The way you say it. ANYTHING CAN F****** HAPPEN. Learn the proper way to discuss about things, Not bring your emotions and anger into this, You make yourself look bad.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 14, 20161 votes

Excuse me but I have not made myself look like anything. That guy wasn't understanding what I was trying to say, and repeating myself over and over again got fucking frustrating. So what if emotions came out, I'm not apologizing for them.

RivuoOct 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If you had read my comment thoroughly you would've seen that I had said flash was an option, just like standing there, getting into range, or what not. Duh. I'm talking about getting a kill with duskblade after he does his combo and you Zhonyas.

Good Lord.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Flash should not be the counterplay to a champ

SnugglePuggle94Oct 13, 20161 votes

Ahem. Where did I fucking say it was counterplay? Learn to freaking read. I said flash was an option for Zed to get into range to kill you, and flash is an option for you to escape.

RivuoOct 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Ahem. Where did I fucking say it was counterplay? Learn to freaking read. I said flash was an option for Zed to get into range to kill you, and flash is an option for you to escape.

i shouldnt be able to tell your emotions through a comment

SnugglePuggle94Oct 14, 20161 votes

Well I can. Maybe you should learn.

RivuoOct 14, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well I can. Maybe you should learn.

lol.....

Linna ExcelOct 13, 20162 votes

What riot intends and what happens are 2 different things. In terms of raw stats, caster ADCs love that item.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 13, 20162 votes

Which they shouldn't be using in the first place.

Linna ExcelOct 13, 20161 votes

No, they should be using those items because the low AA playstyle of caster ADCs is close enough to how an assassin works to make those items, with those stats, viable.

SnugglePuggle94Oct 13, 20162 votes

The item wasn't even made for them, so they shouldn't be using them at all. Riot gave it too many stats so thats why ADCs and Zed are abusing it.

Linna ExcelOct 13, 20161 votes

Doesn't matter who it was made for. All that matters is does it work or not. 75 AD, 5% move speed, and 10 flat armor pen is fairly good for an ADC item.

Take Ecko. He wasn't meant to be a tank. People found tank items worked on him so he was then a tank. Vi wasn't meant to be a jungler. Then people found out how good she was in it and she was then a jungler.

LXIIOct 13, 20161 votes

Yet the moment they announced it we all said it would be used on them. It doesn't matter if Riot says "this is the new assassin item guys!", if it's good for marksmen they're gonna build it.

RiotMeddlerOct 13, 201614 votes

Armor Pen build's are our take too on why MF's performing really well in regular play right now. She is a bit out of line, but we've got changes to some of those items coming soon (6.22) that will make them noticeably less valuable to her and many other ADCs. No current plans to make any changes to her direct as a result.

LankPantsOct 13, 20161 votes

Please tell me that part of the plan is to swap the order of operations on armour pen. Making %armour pen apply before flat was one of the worst changes I can remember.

La BelloOct 13, 20161 votes

its more than likely that FLAT ARMOR pen is going to changed to % BASE armor pen so that it scales into late game yet isnt to overwhelming when bought early (Like that Zed who takes 23 arpen from runes and masteries and buys on his first B item 3134 and pretty much gets to smack you around for damn near true damage).

The real question is how much of this revamped penetration type will we be able to get when combining all possible runes/items and masteries. as of right now the most amount of BONUS ARMOR- armor pen you can have is 52% with Lord Domms and Battering Blows Mastery.

How much is too much and how much should a player who min/maxes into as much ar pen as possible be rewarded? Should 100% Base Armor pen be possible? is that fair? who knows. Wait a week and all shall be revealed apparently.

SpoofghoulOct 13, 20161 votes

why would they change flat pen to % base pen

then we will end up with arpen builds allover again heres a removal of base armor from ghostblade and there's a removal of bonus armor from LDR. Oh and have a black cleaver for some extra

Yea no, making flat apply before % is a better way, but probably wont solve everything either

RequiemsfireOct 13, 20161 votes

Do you think Lucian might receive compensation buffs if his win rate falls a bit too low, basically a lot of lucian players end up relying on his armour pen build even if it's considered unintentional in order to make a stronger impact early on. Not to say he will be

RiotMeddlerOct 13, 20169 votes

A lot of ADCS, Lucian included, have worked Ghostblade especially into their core builds. Wouldn't surprise if we needed to give compensation buffs to at least some of them in the first follow up patch.

La BelloOct 13, 20165 votes

I actually really like Diverse Marksmen builds this year

Kog had item 3124 as a core( CRAZY this item has never been core on ANYONE not even Jax ) Corki has item 3146 as a core MF/Lucian item 3071 as a core Kindred has the weirdest build of all and meanwhile other Marksmen can still build the Core Holy Trinity of crit items so on and so fourth . The Defensive options have also never been better! watching that LeBlanc/Katarina that had been bullying you all game finally have to turn and run with her tail between her legs thanks to your item 3156 item 3139 is such a triumphant exhilarating experience

To be completely honest I never thought I'd live to see the meta where every single ADC wasnt shoehorned into a item 3031 item 3046 combo and dealt meaningful damage outside of auto attacks.

Please for the love of god DO NOT screw this up come preseason. I know there has been talk about making item 3147 and item 3142 less attractive for Marksmen but I must IMPLORE you reconsider. There is nothing more disappointing that watching my epic Caitlyn ace-in-the hole shot/Lucian Culling/Bullet-time do 1/8th of its intended damage because my the optimal builds has zero room for flat pen(not to mention these pen Items directly ties to Varus's competitive viability ) . Please for the love of god find a way for ADC's to keep incorporating relevant armor pen into their builds so as not to diminish caster ADC's once again and keep the build diversity nice.

Unless you've got a Marksman update 2.0 coming right behind it this is how were going to be for likely the majority of the season(which I doubt because a overhaul for Divefighters , Tanks and Supports are so much more needed) so please please please think over these decisions thrice before you come to a conclusion.

Motel 6 RatOct 13, 20162 votes

Is it really necessary to make these builds unviable on some of these adcs?

I can understand if you feel the items are overtuned and need to be toned down so that they aren't completely pushing other builds out, but I've seen posts mentioning specifically making these items unappealing to marksman.

Twitch and Lucian I especially fear for because they are at a stage where they rely so heavily on ghostblade to have any agency (being able to make decisions and plays for themselves early-mid game and not be useless)

You can't take ghostblade away from them without killing them, it would take quite a few nerf reverts from multiple patches back for them to be back in a decent spot, especially for Lucian as he has been hit over and over again, while barely staying on the viable line.

You're looking at forcing ADC as an entire role back to s3-s5 where there was only one viable build path with absolutely no other options (A build that's mostly irrelevant until 40 minutes.)

Jeddy017Oct 13, 20166 votes

Well, those items aren't meant for ADCs in the 1st place. Youmuu's & Duskblade are meant to be assassin items & Black Cleaver is suppose to be a fighter item.

It would be unfair to other champs if they simply nerfed them because of how ADCs are overperforming with them. So they have to adjust the items to make it less valuable on ADCs while keeping them as options for assassins & fighters (like oh, I don't know, maybe put a melee only tag on them).

Motel 6 RatOct 13, 20161 votes

With stats like movespeed and attackspeed on ghostblade, it's certainly not designed as if it should be assassins only.

Ghostblade is also fair to have on Lucian and Twitch with their assassin-esque playstyles and kits. (who by the way are certainly not over-performing in their roles)

It's also very fair to nerf the items, as the items are the ones overperforming, not the people who use them. Armor pen is overtuned and completely overshadows any other builds for all champions.

AstôlfoOct 13, 20163 votes

No. Ranged champions should never have flat armor pen.

Motel 6 RatOct 13, 20161 votes

For what reason? By your logic, assassins shouldn't be able to build crit (Rengar)

AstôlfoOct 14, 20162 votes

Because ranged is inherently superior to melee in terms of just attacking, because melee will always be outranged (obviously). And flat armorpen beats all but tanks/bruisers, and Black Cleaver beats all.

Wolfram OxfordOct 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

A lot of ADCS, Lucian included, have worked Ghostblade especially into their core builds. Wouldn't surprise if we needed to give compensation buffs to at least some of them in the first follow up patch.

Have you thought of why they build these items? ADCs don't have anything that gives them what they need early. I know that they are late game or full build power houses, but the thing that separates them from every other role is an early game one item power spike. I know you tried to fix this with lower gold costs and less damage to balance this out but they need a new item. Something that gives attack speed, crit, and ad all in balanced amounts. something like;

30 AD 40% AS 25% Crit

warpenguin555Oct 13, 20161 votes

Are there any plans for Phantom Dancer or Ruunan's Hurricane?

Phoenix Kotori Oct 13, 20161 votes

How do you feel about Quinn who plays a bit like an assassin in some of her playstyles will Ghostblade still support that playstyle for her?

LadyRenlyOct 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Do you think Lucian might receive compensation buffs if his win rate falls a bit too low, basically a lot of lucian players end up relying on his armour pen build even if it's considered unintentional in order to make a stronger impact early on. Not to say he will be

theres absolutely nothing wrong with his crit build though.

RequiemsfireOct 14, 20161 votes

What his crit build lacks that lucian needs is early game power which his armour pen build provides which is partially the reason he was heavily nerfed. He now sits at approximately 47% win rate while Jinx, Vayne and Misfortune win rates are much higher. Currently Lucian's core build is the armour pen build using Youmuu's and Black cleaver which if they are going to be nerfed would probably lower Lucian's winrate even further to around probably 45%.

You'd be right in saying that crit Lucian is fairly strong but other ADC's scale far better into the game than Lucian does.

cocacolalipsOct 13, 20161 votes

Could you clarify? Is Ghostblade still going to be an option for Marksmen?

I feel like Ghostblade has a cool design, a fun active effect and serves a bit as a staple item (much like the new Hextech Protobelt-01 for Mages) for a class of champions that is otherwise lacking in both mobility and mid game power.

AstôlfoOct 13, 20162 votes

Ranged champions should not have flat armorpen. Ever.

cocacolalipsOct 13, 20161 votes

Don't really care about that stats on the stick. I'm more interested in the flat AD (mid game power), and the active effect that provides attack speed and movespeed (self utility).

ProfDrDeathOct 13, 20161 votes

Is that one of the topics you're going to talk about in Dev Corner next week, as well? Mean all the item changes here.

Tychusfindlay919Oct 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Armor Pen build's are our take too on why MF's performing really well in regular play right now. She is a bit out of line, but we've got changes to some of those items coming soon (6.22) that will make them noticeably less valuable to her and many other ADCs. No current plans to make any changes to her direct as a result.

Why dont you just make items like cleaver half as effective when used by a ranged champion? You guys are prolonging this issue in an unnecessary manner. Cleaver should have never been used by ranged champions in the first place, it's current iteration was put in place for champs like darius and garen.

Sire HippingtonOct 13, 20161 votes

My take is more that 12.0 total ad on an long ranged aoe is quite overkill even if it channles over 3 sec.

Also, i doubt that any changes to those items make them less valuable to her unless they also get less valuable for assasins and other ad-casters aswell. Mf simply scales way harder off ad, arpen and cdr than she does on crit and AS, so do some other carries. And imo thats not a problem, it's actually nice to see something else than the ever same crit builts on adc. However, those champs need to be balanced around their most effective built, easy as that. and MF certainly is over the top by any means for quite some time now.

Earl EulrichOct 14, 20161 votes

and then it´ll be just the same just with crit and 5min later into the game (or 5min earlier depending on rng)...sigh