Why is Graves considered too general of a pick but not Lee Sin?

King Odin··123 votes·6,509 views

Graves: 50.29% WR 22.44% Pick rate Lee Sin: 49.32% WR 32.39% Pick rate

"We'll be looking at Graves in 7.7. Starting belief is that he's too general a pick. First change we'll be testing is removing the MR from True Grit, making him a significantly less attractive pick against Magic Damage heavy teams. Very possible we make other changes in addition, or instead, of that though. " - Meddler

Graves is a purely damage oriented jungler with no utility and relatively limited and short mobility. Does he need nerfs? Yes he does, because he's definitely overbearing once slightly ahead due to his high damage and the ability to be tanky at the same time.

On the other hand we have Lee Sin who has had either the first or 2nd highest pickrate in the game for as long as I can remember and I don't think I need to explain why he's the literal definition of generalist jungler which does everything under the sun. So why is it that Graves who has been in the spot light for one or two patches (mostly due to lethality) is being looked at but not Mr. Blindmonk with his unparalleled mobility, high damage, slow, stun, knock back, shield and built in life sustain. Players with only 1-50 games with him have a 53% WR on average and this is on a "mechanically" challenging champion. We all know they do this double standard balancing when it comes to Lee sin and other junglers but it's quite frustrating to see it happen over multiple seasons just because of the pro scene.

######P.S I know I sound salty but I'm not, as a tank jungle main I'm just tired of Lee Sin having so many free ways out of poor engages, poor planned invades and his ability to dominate early game really hard and transition into mid-late game decently if he builds smart just because he's Lee Sin.

163 Comments

Ralanr53 votes

Because Riot sees Lee Sin as the most balanced jungler based on a players skill.

I don't agree but I've stopped hoping that they'll nerf him.

greekvandaL15 votes

implying lee takes a lot of skill. he took skill before one Q Q R killed people and every item had cdr built in it. i can just get yommus cleaver and oneshot squishies every 50seconds or lvl 16 every 40seconds. I see even gold/silver players pop off on this champ spectating low elo friends. Nothing in this gaem takes actual skill. outside some flash combos by certain champs

A Basic Island8 votes

Why aren't you challenger then?

ExcusemeFellows23 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Basic Island,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q8dBicmh,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-15T15:32:09.829+0000)

Why aren't you challenger then?

Because it's not just about the mechanics fool, why aren't you in challenger?(same question could be applied to me.)

A Basic Island4 votes

Maybe cus im not the retard here claiming lee is op and takes no skill

If he was so op and so easy you'd be challenger by now

Plenty of lee sin challenger mains. Why aren't you one?

RavenMagus11 votes

Individual champion mechanics are not the most relevant thing at higher tiers. Once you're past gold or so everyone is good at their champs. At that point it's game knowledge and macro play that takes relevance over mechanical skill, and that goes double true for junglers, who are responsible for playing the entire map the whole game.

I can pull off the cleanest ult flash combos and I've only played Lee Sin twice. It's really not hard at all. But I'm not going to be riding Lee to challenger any time soon because I'm awful at jungling.

A Basic Island1 votes

ult flash combos aren't really even that hard. It's literally hitting two buttons within a second or so

its the other little things.

RavenMagus4 votes

Ward hopping is just pressing two buttons in rapid succession. Most things are, and at best it's just muscle memory that you can develop after a few games.

It's the macro level details and decision making that is really hard.

A Basic Island1 votes

id actually argue a very good ward hop is harder to pull of than ult flashing someone <.<

i tend to mess up my ward hops way more than ult flashes, mainly cus when i ward hop the screen is constantly moving

i mean an actual ward hop, not "im trying to get over a wall" wardhop

RavenMagus4 votes

Do you play on locked camera?

(not accusing, genuinely curious)

Only Play Darius4 votes

It's not even QQR that's the problem, it's that damn RQQ clickshot combo that stuns you for a good 1.5 seconds and gives him an unmissable QQ (and also puts you out of position)

Hunted90004 votes

You mean RQQ

Only Play Darius2 votes

I fucked up thanks

Dessem2 votes

Lee Sin players's QQ is indeed problematic.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

implying lee takes a lot of skill. he took skill before one Q Q R killed people and every item had cdr built in it. i can just get yommus cleaver and oneshot squishies every 50seconds or lvl 16 every 40seconds. I see even gold/silver players pop off on this champ spectating low elo friends. Nothing in this gaem takes actual skill. outside some flash combos by certain champs

Riven I disagree. Oneshotting in teamfights and not dying is takes a pretty decent amount of skill. Although I guess those are mostly flash combos.

greekvandaL2 votes

what part of flash combos did you not understand bud. Riven is one of those champs with highskillcap flash engages. Outside from flash engages you can easily faceroll with riven. Yes you can faceroll i was a riven main for a whole year have well over 200games dont give me the YOU DONT EVEN RIVEN hurr durr shit

Almighty9 votes

His problems are rooted deep withing his design. He needs a full gameplay rework.

######(inb4 crazy Lee fanboys downvote)

Almighty.

Ahristocats22 votes

lee sin has 55% win rate in master with 3k to 4k games played by months

he will continue to break high elo as long as riot balances the game around plat+

SwaggyMcGhee4205 votes

Oh yeah, Riot should balance around the top .05% in solo queue, instead of the majority of players, or the LCS, which actually makes them money.

Ahristocats10 votes

the endless debate of balance vs elo vs riot, and the fact that high elo players have to suffer from lee sin at the expense of other players when low elo lee sin players can just become better at the game

ChaoticPinecone2 votes

Then you should also "just become" better at the game, since in the LCS Lee isnt a great pick. If of course you really do mean that Riot should balance around the highest tiers of play.

Cause balancing around Master brings the same inherent problems as balancing around Diamond, or balancing around Plat, or balancing around Gold. There are people better than you that can abuse champions that people your elo cannot abuse.

Ahristocats6 votes

LCS isn't an other lvl of high elo, LCS is an other game mode. LCS and soloq even in challenger are way different with 0 common point, there is a reason people asked for dynamic queue

solo queue is where you have 5 people who are uncoordinate, they still play in team they don't play alone, but they aren't coordinated, in selection top won't say "i'm picking shen pick tf so we destroy them and bot pick X and Y"

and if you don't believe me watch streams of imqt and then watch lcs

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

Call it what you want - LCS is the highest tier of play.

Ahristocats5 votes

you will never understand wha i say until you play where i play

ChaoticPinecone2 votes

And nobody will ever listen to you about Lee because nobody cares about your opinion.

Ahristocats5 votes

i never said i cared about what they cared

ChaoticPinecone2 votes

Cause nobody cares where you play

Ahristocats3 votes

{quoted}

nobody

Lol no, my friends are climbing like hell and we will never know if they will get to master or not until they play enough game There are people who care, you just don't know them

now i understand your salt, as you're someone who convinced himself that he can't get good enough at the game to climb and because of that you want riot to balance their game around your ability to play the game even if other people have to become trash at the game be on your level

But like i said i'm writing on this board, and nowhere it is written that i should write about what people care

if despite all of this you still don't understand, well then the blacklist feature is nice

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

Nah, see heres what you do:

You say something to farm upvotes. You do it all the time, even if its complete BS and a complete lie. Someone like me calls you out on it. Then you throw out your rank as if it makes you right and call people trash.

When you state an opinion thats false, nobody really cares where you play. People can see through an incorrect opinion on the game. People can also see when you get super defensive and start lashing out at others, because you cant stand on the logic of your own reasoning.

Ahristocats3 votes

{quoted}

Nah, see heres what you do:

You say something to farm upvotes. You do it all the time, even if its complete BS and a complete lie. Someone like me calls you out on it. Then you throw out your rank as if it makes you right and call people trash.

no, here is what YOU DO do not reverse our role i gave you arguments on why we should balance the game around master tier, because they can't get trash at the game when plat players can get good at the game

riot balances the game around plat+, don't tell me plat+ is the majority of league players because THAT'S FUCKING BULLSHIT, riot does it because they believe plat players are good at the game when there is a huge difference between plat and master

VexingRaven2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q8dBicmh,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-03-15T14:16:28.001+0000)

lee sin has 55% win rate in master with 3k to 4k games played by months

he will continue to break high elo as long as riot balances the game around plat+

He breaks every elo.

DunkinNoobs11 votes

It's irritating to me how often I see these threads, and it's especially irritating that people make them so they can QQ about Lee. So let's address this, shall we? Why do champs like Maokai and Graves get changed for being too generalist while Lee does not? Because Lee is supposed to be a generalist and that's exactly what he is. Graves is supposed to be a pure carry jungler, but he's tanky enough that picking him is never really a bad choice.

Stop trying to argue that a champ should be changed just because they're too much of a generalist. A champion being a generalist is not a problem if that is their intended design. But when specialist champs like Graves or Maokai bring enough general strength that they can be picked in any game, that's when we have a problem. Specialist champs are supposed to be trade offs for their unique strengths, and when they don't do this, they push actual generalists out of their role, as well as specialists that can't compete with them.

It's not a coincidence that whenever Tanks start becoming popular again, Maokai is the one to lead them. Not only his is defensive peeling ability top notch, but he's strong enough at diving and 1v1's to make him a solid pick in literally any team comp. That is why Maokai is being changed. Graves is no different. He's a carry duelist jungler that's tanky enough to scrap with champions far tankier than he is. There's never a particularly bad time to pick Graves jungle, which is a massive problem considering his potential upside as a carry. Champs with greater potential upside also need flaws to justify their strengths. Graves doesn't currently have this, and neither does Maokai. They bring all the strength of a specialist to the table while still being generalist enough to be a safe pick in every game. That is why they're being changed; being too generalist when that's not their role.

Baron of Bread5 votes

Why do we need a generalist jungler? All it does is make it so whoever that champion (Lee Sin) happens to be extra good against (most tank junglers) is nearly always going to be pushed out of the meta by the generalist's overbearing presence.

Aeszarck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q8dBicmh,comment-id=000f0000,timestamp=2017-03-15T20:56:14.656+0000)

Why do we need a generalist jungler? All it does is make it so whoever that champion (Lee Sin) happens to be extra good against (most tank junglers) is nearly always going to be pushed out of the meta by the generalist's overbearing presence.

We don't need a generalist jungler. We don't need any specific type of Champion. We can still have them though, because their presence makes the game more interesting.

Baron of Bread10 votes

Except it doesn't make the game more interesting, it makes the game more restricted. If Lee Sin only had OK matchups, none that were good or bad, then it would be fine that he is a generalist. He doesn't, instead he has good matchups and OK ones. He can crush nearly every tank jungler so hard that they can never become relevant in game, so the fact that he can't be a bad pick means that he will always be around to keep those tank junglers out of the meta.

We have seen this in the past and can see it currently. Whenever Lee is reasonably strong tank junglers disappear unless they somehow get made very OP. Removing a large number of champions from viability does not make the game more interesting.

DunkinNoobs1 votes

Lee isn't extra good against tank junglers. I actually pick tank junglers to counter Lee because I win for free if the game goes past 25 minutes since I'm a tank and he's Lee Sin.

Baron of Bread3 votes

Which tank junglers are you picking into Lee Sin? Lee should be in your jungle killing you or ruining your day putting you so far behind you aren't relevant until 40 minutes.

idontgiveabother10 votes

Lee is literally riots pet. I saw a rioter said they don't want to nerf him "too much (aka not at all)" because its interesting to see in pro play. I believe that comment had 120+ downvotes or something.

SkZ DoPe8 votes

in my last game i got 1 shot by a Lee with Ult > Q that i can not dodge, and that Lee had 280 AD with 200 Armor.

LeeSin _consider it a skill champ _

it seems he is whitelisted by riot from nerfs

Wyrmblade2 votes

It takes a lot of skill to not miss the undodgeable Q!!!!!!!fucking1

Hexs Fortune7 votes

Lee sin has been their baby for as long as I've played this game. He gets a pass

Thilmer3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hexs Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q8dBicmh,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2017-03-15T17:56:00.687+0000)

Lee sin has been their baby for as long as I've played this game. He gets a pass

He gets a frigging multi-pass.

winteriscoming972 votes

Are you kidding? He gets an annual pass at Disneyland

dolphinosplash246 votes

with no utility Now im no expert on this but wont his smokescreen provide what is considered as utility

ACENOX11 votes

yes and twitch has a strong utility because he has an aoe slow kappa

dolphinosplash245 votes

{quoted}

yes and twitch has a strong utility because he has an aoe slow kappa

That's different. His w adds passive stacks which increase his e damage. Graves w solely provides a vision block and very little magic and a small slow only if the thing lands on something.

rafflesz12 votes

{quoted}

That's different. His w adds passive stacks which increase his e damage. Graves w solely provides a vision block and very little magic and a small slow only if the thing lands on something.

graves w is one of the most disruptive skills in the game...the vision denial means any auto attack champion instantly can no longer aggress on him on top of that they get slowed as well...

if youre ranged with a skillshot well good luck literally shooting in the dark.

Its almost wind wall level...to down play it and compare it twitch w is the most idiotic things i've ever read...

Glory ln Death6 votes

Saying he doesn't have 0 utility isn't the same as saying he has strong utility.

Thilmer4 votes

Lee Sin has been one of the best junglers in every patch of the game since i started playing in season 3.

I'm not even talking about balance; it's unfair that the same champ is tier 1 jungler during whole seasons without any complain while Riot nerfs other champs as soon as they are popular for one patch.

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