Give MF rework back her Grevious wounds.

King Odin·Jul 7, 2015·185 votes·24,202 views

It's the reason she's so strong as a laner especially against sustain lanes like Sona/Soraka. Don't leave her without it Riot.

201 Comments

The Bard DogJul 7, 201517 votes

wait you're saying riot is reworking a champion, but it's secretly a stealth nerf? wow im so shocked riot would stoop to that level. Mordekaiser Karma Veigar Soraka

TarynJul 8, 20155 votes

Sona Sona Sona Sona Sona Sona

And let's not forget

Sona

A Miss FortuneJul 7, 201515 votes

Not necessarily, they're giving her a massive laning phase buff, where already excels at. Her Q critically striking, her E having stronger slows, and her Passive being very difficult to shut off. I feel like removing her Grevious Wounds could prevent her from returning to her old state where she was a cancer ADC that was unstoppable early game. Right now, she can still have significantly better laning phase than even Caitlyn but I think they just consolidated that.

People act like trading Grevious Wounds for huge buffs elsewhere is a big deal. She still has Grevious Wounds on her ultimate I believe, and coming from someone who's played Miss Fortune almost daily for the past 6 - 7 months, I don't think the Grevious Wounds made her what she is in the laning phase. She countered people like Sona, Soraka, or Taric's heals, however they only lasted 2 seconds. Personally I feel like it gave her a stronger edge in Mid lane (I've tried her going AD Carry Mid many times) due to it pushing her as a duelist.

The reason why she is so strong in the laning phase, is not due to Grevious Wounds. Her Double Up makes it ridiculously difficult for the enemy to farm without slowly getting poked down, and now the damage can essentially critically hit. On top of that, her Slow makes her sync well with any engaging support or any jungler really. I don't think the Grevious Wounds defined who she is, but it helped her against sustain supports a bit.

CatSithJul 7, 20154 votes

The reason she was cancer in her old state was because of damage and the huge aoe cone on her ult, hence they nerfed it. Her other abilities were fine.

A Miss FortuneJul 7, 201530 votes

I'm pretty sure they nerfed her Q damage too.

I'm starting to doubt the Boards, it seems like Reddit 2.0.

"wtf miss fortunes passive is significantly buffed, her Q has even more poke damage, and her E makes her much stronger early game!!!!! how dare riot doo ths11 i want my 2 second grevs wound bak"

CatSithJul 7, 201513 votes

The grievous wounds really helped her as a AD champion without a dash, jump, or any type of hard cc.

A Miss FortuneJul 7, 201513 votes

But people are complaining that it hurts her trading ability, where at level 1 she already outtrades every ADC since she has low cooldown auto attack reset that also does damage. Basically 3 auto attacks in one, not to mention her W passively gives her more damage, and her E now does more damage since the duration was lowered a bit.

I see no reason to buff Miss Fortune any further, she's already a great champion and I do not want her to get nerfed because the Boards just can never be pleased and always finds something stupid to complain about.

CatSithJul 7, 20159 votes

technically, it wouldn't be a buff to add GW back since she had it originally. MF players find the small changes doesn't make up for its removal, because its a big part in her power as a immobile adc.

Rinky DinkyJul 8, 20154 votes

Are you trying to say the MF on live is fine?

We both know that is not true lol

A Miss FortuneJul 8, 20153 votes

I mean I don't see any problems with her. She has an above average winrate, has more kills, assists, and damage dealt than average ADCs, and she also has less deaths according to the matrix.

But until she's played in the LCS she's basically trash-tier that needs a billion or more buffs and is totally unviable, despite the same pro players already saying she's in a healthy state and Riot also agreeing she is. It's not like Ryze was the same way amirite.

Rinky DinkyJul 8, 20155 votes

Dont get me wrong, I agree with your opinion on these terribad boards.

As far as most plebians here are concerned "If it's not popular, buff!"

lmao.... yes, let us buff malzahar. Perhaps his silence duration should be increased?

Idiocy aside, I just find MissFortune to lack an identity as a champion. She doesn't do anything particularly well, and is honestly just outclassed in most categories.

She is out-lanebullied by Graves and Sivir . Don't forget Draven

Has no where near the carry/snowball potential as Vayne Jinx

Has little utility when compared to Ashe Sivir Varus

Her range is nothing special

She doesn't poke better than other poke focused adc's.

She doesn't kite better than other adc's (This may change with the buffs)

She doesn't have anything special about her, other than her ults synergy with BC. That's it. That is all she has after her powerspike.

I read your convo, and we seem to agree on most points.

She might be fine balance wise, but she is so so very boring and lackluster compared to other adc's. I mean, Draven fills her bounty-hunter feel better through his passive.

She needs something, and we were told it would be something with her E being changed. That didn't happen, and now we just got straight buffs.

That's great, but doesn't solve the problem.

She needs something else.

BeldoriJul 8, 20152 votes

To add to this shes outclassed by Lucian , his kit is more or less the same thing as MF's but better. It has a few trade offs comparatively but overall similar kit but way outclassed.

His Q is a easier to use version of MF Q, W is extra poke at low cost with a ms boost on it(can compare this to MF's E really) his atk speed boost is his passive which gives him harder burst, E is a dash which is always strong and his ult has the trade off of smaller width and can't go through enemies for being able to move and dash while ulting plus good scaling

ParessJul 7, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Not necessarily, they're giving her a massive laning phase buff, where already excels at. Her Q critically striking, her E having stronger slows, and her Passive being very difficult to shut off. I feel like removing her Grevious Wounds could prevent her from returning to her old state where she was a cancer ADC that was unstoppable early game. Right now, she can still have significantly better laning phase than even Caitlyn but I think they just consolidated that.

People act like trading Grevious Wounds for huge buffs elsewhere is a big deal. She still has Grevious Wounds on her ultimate I believe, and coming from someone who's played Miss Fortune almost daily for the past 6 - 7 months, I don't think the Grevious Wounds made her what she is in the laning phase. She countered people like Sona, Soraka, or Taric's heals, however they only lasted 2 seconds. Personally I feel like it gave her a stronger edge in Mid lane (I've tried her going AD Carry Mid many times) due to it pushing her as a duelist.

The reason why she is so strong in the laning phase, is not due to Grevious Wounds. Her Double Up makes it ridiculously difficult for the enemy to farm without slowly getting poked down, and now the damage can essentially critically hit. On top of that, her Slow makes her sync well with any engaging support or any jungler really. I don't think the Grevious Wounds defined who she is, but it helped her against sustain supports a bit.

Where did you see her Q crits ? Because since her release her Q always applied on-hit but never crit.

junglerboy16Jul 7, 20153 votes

yeah, definitely doesn't crit, only applies on-hits, the reveal said as much..

GwingMasterJul 7, 201510 votes

{quoted}

Not necessarily, they're giving her a massive laning phase buff, where already excels at. Her Q critically striking, her E having stronger slows, and her Passive being very difficult to shut off. I feel like removing her Grevious Wounds could prevent her from returning to her old state where she was a cancer ADC that was unstoppable early game. Right now, she can still have significantly better laning phase than even Caitlyn but I think they just consolidated that.

People act like trading Grevious Wounds for huge buffs elsewhere is a big deal. She still has Grevious Wounds on her ultimate I believe, and coming from someone who's played Miss Fortune almost daily for the past 6 - 7 months, I don't think the Grevious Wounds made her what she is in the laning phase. She countered people like Sona, Soraka, or Taric's heals, however they only lasted 2 seconds. Personally I feel like it gave her a stronger edge in Mid lane (I've tried her going AD Carry Mid many times) due to it pushing her as a duelist.

The reason why she is so strong in the laning phase, is not due to Grevious Wounds. Her Double Up makes it ridiculously difficult for the enemy to farm without slowly getting poked down, and now the damage can essentially critically hit. On top of that, her Slow makes her sync well with any engaging support or any jungler really. I don't think the Grevious Wounds defined who she is, but it helped her against sustain supports a bit.

Not to be contradictory, but I think you're a little off in your interpretation of how her Ult works with Grievous Wounds. Her ult never actually applied Grievous Wounds itself - the tooltip specifically lists that it applies the stacks FROM Impure Shots. We can assume that it still applies the stacking magic damage, but given that Impure Shots lost its Grievous Wounds, it's equally safe to assume that the ult lost this as well. While I will defer to your opinion on how it affects her laning phase, there's not denying that this is still a pretty nasty nerf to her ultimate in mid/late game teamfights where its damage has never been particularly good (not to mention if the opposing team had any kind of coordination you'd never get a full channel off). Losing the ability to apply such a strong debuff over an entire team in a short window is a pretty big loss.

Also i'm not sure saying her Q's "crit" is entirely accurate. It says they do bonus damage if the first bounce kills, but I don't think they ever said that it was a critical striking. It's still a strong tool in lane tho.

The problem here is that she was already pretty crap in the late game. The added move speed on Impure Shots is nice for rotations and map movements, but it's useless in duels/2v2s given that you'll almost certainly be taking a lot of direct damage to cancel the buff. I don't see how anything they gave her makes her a stronger duelist. The Q bonus require minions to be present, the bonus move speed can be cancelled easily, and the slow is only effective if she's already winning the duel. Her Make It Rain will definitely make ganks easier in lane, that's definitely true.

I think overall the frustration is with a missed opportunity to give her some more love. Her scalings still seem to be really wonky, her ult is still just a shittier version of Lucian's (particularly now that Grievous Wounds is gone), and the buffs she got never really felt targetted at solving any of her core issues. She's faster, has an equitable laning phase, but still suffers most of the same problems as before.

A Miss FortuneJul 7, 20155 votes

Finally, a real argument besides

"gg mf is trash"

I'm not 100% sure about the situation of her ultimate, but they said that it was left untouched so I assumed that it included the Grevious Wounds.

Miss Fortune's real problem is not from her scaling or her transitions throughout the game. She's a champion with an incredible laning phase and honestly, her mid game is probably one of the best if not the best of any ADCs including Sivir. If I find myself losing lane, I quickly find that teamfights and roaming can get me pretty fed with Miss Fortune. She just does really well at this point of time and I'm shocked people don't believe that.

As for her scaling, her Q and ultimate have significantly higher AD scaling, and her E is the only thing without AD scaling but it also allows stuff like AP Miss Fortune to be viable. I don't see how people call her scaling weird, it's the same with Ezreal. He can be played AP, but does much better AD. Except I think in this case AD MF is unquestionably strong than AP MF in every way. Still, I don't see a problem with stuff like Gunblade being built on her. It makes builds interesting and opens up a lot for her compared to someone like Vayne, who can't use anything with AP or face the item being not as useful on her to other ADCs.

Miss Fortune's real problem is her ability to be counterplayed. Currently, her passive is easy to shut off, her Q and E have cast times, and her ultimate requires her to remain in one spot to use it. Riot is giving her a huge buff by not only making it much more difficult to shut off Miss Fortune's passive, but by also making it stronger on top of buffs to her Q and E. Miss Fortune's power isn't relying on Grevious Wounds, sure it's nice to have, but I think it was traded for much stronger buffs.

I'm not a Challenjour +1 player with 100,000 wins and 0 losts, but I've mained Miss Fortune for a really, really long time, and I know what I'm saying. These buffs are awesome and put her into the right direction. I don't ever think she was unviable, however people simply create the illusion she is and slowly the entire League community falls into believing this ADC who currently is statistically superior to most ADCs, is suddenly trash-tier after being considered the best ADC for a long time.

GwingMasterJul 8, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Finally, a real argument besides

"gg mf is trash"

I'm not 100% sure about the situation of her ultimate, but they said that it was left untouched so I assumed that it included the Grevious Wounds.

Miss Fortune's real problem is not from her scaling or her transitions throughout the game. She's a champion with an incredible laning phase and honestly, her mid game is probably one of the best if not the best of any ADCs including Sivir. If I find myself losing lane, I quickly find that teamfights and roaming can get me pretty fed with Miss Fortune. She just does really well at this point of time and I'm shocked people don't believe that.

As for her scaling, her Q and ultimate have significantly higher AD scaling, and her E is the only thing without AD scaling but it also allows stuff like AP Miss Fortune to be viable. I don't see how people call her scaling weird, it's the same with Ezreal. He can be played AP, but does much better AD. Except I think in this case AD MF is unquestionably strong than AP MF in every way. Still, I don't see a problem with stuff like Gunblade being built on her. It makes builds interesting and opens up a lot for her compared to someone like Vayne, who can't use anything with AP or face the item being not as useful on her to other ADCs.

Miss Fortune's real problem is her ability to be counterplayed. Currently, her passive is easy to shut off, her Q and E have cast times, and her ultimate requires her to remain in one spot to use it. Riot is giving her a huge buff by not only making it much more difficult to shut off Miss Fortune's passive, but by also making it stronger on top of buffs to her Q and E. Miss Fortune's power isn't relying on Grevious Wounds, sure it's nice to have, but I think it was traded for much stronger buffs.

I'm not a Challenjour +1 player with 100,000 wins and 0 losts, but I've mained Miss Fortune for a really, really long time, and I know what I'm saying. These buffs are awesome and put her into the right direction. I don't ever think she was unviable, however people simply create the illusion she is and slowly the entire League community falls into believing this ADC who currently is statistically superior to most ADCs, is suddenly trash-tier after being considered the best ADC for a long time.

You raise a ton of valid points here. I feel I should clarify - I actually don't dispute the assertion that she is essentially as strong as she was before the update, nor that she in fact may very well be stronger in certain areas. She absolutely is. My problem with the update is more aimed towards the fact that they've emphasized things she was already good at in lieu of addressing the outdated aspects of her play pattern.

It's totally fine that she's not much of a late game character - Corki isn't either. The problem is as you say - outplay potential. Her improved passive, more responsive Q, and improved E are all great additions but they don't answer the question of what exactly this champ is supposed to do when the game moves past her power spike.

You brought up Sivir and I think this is a good point of comparison. Sivir has a similarly strong laning phase and a very mid-game focused damage profile. The key difference here is that Sivir has a very clear gameplay pattern to build from - strong wave control and a great utility with her ultimate. Even when her damage falls off, her ultimate and ability to push lanes gives her clear power points to build from. This is why she became so much more viable after her update.

Ashe's recent update had a similar vibe - the passive change gave her much better utility to go with her amazing vision on her Hawkshot and the alreayd incredibly engage power of her Ult. They removed a silly passive that made no sense and replaced it with an abilty that gives her strong late game damage and a ton of utility to work with. CLEAR IDENTITY UPDATE!!

Now let's look at MF - how does this update clarify her identity? The changes to her passive and W definitely give her stronger map movements. This reinforces the idea of trying to crush in lane and then affect the rest of the map through roaming. Unfortunately, she can't duel worth a damn and her ult becomes useless in late game, so unless she gets suitably far ahead in the early/early-mid game she will become somewhat useless. She has inferior damage to later game carries, inferior utility to people like Ashe, inferior poke to a Corki, and inferior waveclear compared to Sivir.

People have brought up that Grievous Wounds gave her something special - i agree. It was cool to have her be sort of the "health shredding armor shredding teamfighter". Do I think it's good to have her entire identity tied to GW? Nope. But simply removing it and putting her in a scenario where she needs to get WAY ahead early on in order to stay effective doesn't seem like a suitable solution either. Her new mobility is nice, but is that really what MF was intended to be about? I dunno.

You've played her more than I have, so I respect your opinion. I dont' want her to be like all the ADCs, but I think they could've done more here

A Miss FortuneJul 8, 20153 votes

I see your point, that Grevious Wounds was definitely unique on her. However I think they're trying to make Strut to be sort of like, her identity.

I think that Strut's ability to be much more stronger will make her different. An ADC with a lot of movement speed that can probably be even better than Vayne at chasing an enemy down. They're trying to allow Miss Fortune this mobility without a ton of dashes or blinks and I really like it. I want people to notice Miss Fortune being naturally fast and take that into consideration. Rather than people saying "lel mf passive so bad gg". I think with her passive being MUCH stronger, it will make people think twice about how they engage on her or how they disengage. I feel like it's similar to Ashe's ult. Ashe's ult is global and it can set up amazing teamfights and snipe people as a global execute. It definitely is part of Ashe's identity and if they removed it, I don't think it would be appropriate to even call her Ashe anymore and they might as well of just made a new champion. However this isn't the case with Miss Fortune's identity which should be more reinforced into her passive.

As for Miss Fortune's dueling and ultimate, her ultimate can actually hit easily for around 1,350 damage I believe late game if they take the 2 seconds. This and her dueling powers are honestly one of the best of ADCs. Her Q gives her auto attack resets on a really low cooldown that also does damage, her W is really nice for the attack speed buff, and her E is now doing more damage. Also, ult'ing in a duel usually guarantees me winning them if played right. Don't underestimate Miss Fortune, she does damage and while she's not really that good late game, her early and mid game dueling and teamfighting outclasses most ADCs. I know I'm going to get a lot of hate for that, but it simply true. Sure, Vayne definitely can out-duel Miss Fortune, and Twitch can definitely have better teamfighting, however Miss Fortune is still able to do both really effectively.

5G8Nri0B54Jul 8, 20152 votes

I can say this confidently as someone who played a lot of and against a lot of MF's...

Her R rarely goes smoothly unless the entire team is CC'd or somehow hampered long enough to eat that full channel. But in those situations, the CC'd team is focked, MF or no MF.

The only thing that got buffed was that rather contentious passive of hers, and no where near to the point that makes up for her W nerf.

A Miss FortuneJul 8, 20154 votes

wtf

i know it's most likely not you but my original comment got downvoted to oblivion, and now everything else is getting upvoted. and my statement is still the same thing.

the boards is like going in lane against a teemo, you're going to either do really bad or do really good no matter how much he counters you or you counter him.

unless you're yorick.

Miss Fortune's ult is pretty strong, I don't think buffing it would be a good idea either. Mind you that it does damage and it's in a fairly big cone and if the buffed it any further, I think it would be bad and need to be nerfed. Why? Well, her ultimate was a lot stronger before and yeah. Her ultimate does damage but it usually requires the full duration so it works extremely well with champions like Yasuo, Alistar, Amumu, Sejuani, etc. Also MF got buffs to her passive, Q, and E all for trading 2 second Grevious Wounds.

YvieZileanOddlyJul 7, 20157 votes

All removing GW does is a remove an important niche to her champion, that separated her from other ADCs. She didn't get "huge buffs elsewhere".

So she gets a little faster. Cool. Q Applies on hit stuff, that's nice. That's pretty much it. W activates strut, woohoo.

She's still going at the bottom ADC picks, and removing GW only makes it worse. Not only that, theres not AD item that applies GW.

These changes really do anything special for her, and there doesn't seem to any reason to remove GW.

5G8Nri0B54Jul 7, 20157 votes

Actually her Q always applied on-hit effects. It's just that now, her bounce does slightly more damage if it happens to kill the initial target. It's a minor situational buff.

Solari FortuneJul 7, 201514 votes

It really did help in getting that leg up on other ADC's. I have been in multiple fights where me and the enemy adc have gotten locked into a right click off. Then when we are low we would pop heal. Grievous wounds allowed me to come out ahead in the trades when the supports came in to break up the fighting or even win the trade. I'm hoping that if the community pleads hard enough they will add it back on

RiotRiot ShadowStormJul 8, 201550 votes

For what it's worth, I REALLY enjoyed these changes when I tested them out in a playtest a little while ago. I play a lot of Miss Fortune, and she just felt better overall with the changes. I didn't miss the Grievous Wounds at all, nor did I feel that my lane bullying or dueling potential was radically affected.

From my perspective, the goal isn't to change her playstyle (which I appreciate), but to give her a few more decisions to make. That makes her more interesting to play, and allows me as an MF main to better express my skill and experience with her.

That's just one person's view, of course, but I'm looking forward to these changes having tried them out in-game.

5G8Nri0B54Jul 8, 201520 votes

For what I can tell you as someone who played a fair bit of MF in my time (no where near your level and frequency)...there is a really gratifying feeling leaving all of your enemies with open wounds after popping them with a bullet. The so called trade-off, being able to re-activate the rather contentious Passive that a simple whiff could deactivate, does not sound one bit appealing at all.

It's also going to be a heckuva lot harder to man-mode against those gap-closing bastards...whom you can not escape as you don't have any dashes or blinks of your own.

But most importantly, my biggest dissatisfaction about her rework is how her E is left the same. I've said it multiples times before, and I'll say it again. It just ain't very great.

It's damage is non-existent, what with it's lack of scaling. It's slow doesn't do a thing to stave off Talons and Xin Zhao's. And it's mana cost makes even the very thought of using it completely unattractive in light of the fact that she also needs those mana to use her Q and W...while saving enough mana for her R.

On a more positive note though, **AMAZING visual update! **The removal of her laugh is baffling, yes...but I guess it's a trade-off for her new animations and model. Didn't even know you needed to trade for it, but oh well.

I also love her shooting animations. It's derpy...and I love it for that.

Vellich0rJul 8, 20154 votes

They also improved her passive to make it less... Non existent... Build an early BT, and when they come in the BT shield keeps your passive up. Have a support with shields and the same thing can be said. Running away and blew your flash but they are faster? W gives you an instant move speed boost! (That now scales too) And they upped the make it rain slow and DPS (Though they dropped the duration). Overall, I am pretty sure this will be a buff, especially to her lane bullying.

FirstSergeantBimJul 8, 20155 votes

She's still walking on eggshells and she still doesn't scale well into the late-game.

When I pick my champion I like to think about their margin for error. If I pick "X" champion, how much can go wrong before my champion's kit becomes invalid? If I pick Kalista, that Last Whisper I buy 20-25 minutes into the game will work on all of my damages and my enemy can't actually prevent me from hopping. Or if I pick AP Ezreal, I know that it's no big deal for me to miss a Q, W, E or R but it's really difficult for the enemy to avoid every single Q, W, E or R, and I have no fear that the Void Staff I bought will go to waste on my most basic damaging ability.

Taking a look at Miss Fortune, I see her two biggest issues completely ignored. Her damages/scalings were not homogenized and her passive is entirely dependent on having a shield when taking direct damage. That means her team can never rely on MF's damages scaling well late into the game (where it matters most) and her passive only becomes somewhat reliable if she buys an item (or a teammate spares a situational shield).

It is certainly nice of Riot to help MF's dated kit a little bit, but unless they address these two issues she will never become as reliable and useful to her team as another champion whose margin of error is much lower.

Vellich0rJul 8, 20152 votes

She is an early game lane bully ADC. First thing that is a common misconception, an ADC always scales well into late game as a damage source, some just scale better or worse than others. They added a lot of power into things that actually matter, especially her early poke damage and reliability, while dampening some of her weaknesses such as situational mobility. She still has a massive ult (That actually works really well in team fights) and a lot of damage potential from her auto attacks and impure shots.

FirstSergeantBimJul 8, 20155 votes

It seems as if you didn't understand my post because you're simply repeating the points you've already made. As you can see, I completely agree that they are helping her in some way. I have no argument against that.

My argument is based around picking strategies that possess as little margin for error as possible. It's the difference between playing this game on hard-mode or easy-mode. Why wouldn't you pick a champion that carries at least some level of threat early on in the game and becomes progressively better than other champions as the game goes on?

Since this game is a team game and there exists mechanics which gate a player's realm of influence, it's so much easier to win the game by playing a champion that continues to scale. Gunning for that early game is such a gamble, especially if you sacrifice your ability to be effective during the most important time of the match (when teams group). How useful is Miss Fortune going to be when she's up against Marksmen whose kits are fully efficient, doing more damage and providing more utility? Or when she's up against champions able to completely bypass her slows and ultimate through mobility? Or when she's up against tanky champions who are able to nullify half of her kit's damages? Not very useful, I think.

Which leads me to my initial argument: unless they address these issues she will be out-classed by other, more reliable and useful champions.

Shrek LuigiJul 8, 20152 votes

Late-scaling ADCs have extremely poor lane-phases compared to champs like MF or Graves. If scaling was exclusively what made an ADC so great then everyone would be playing Kogmaw right now.

DrNovaJul 8, 20151 votes

Maybe im missing something, but besides trying to get a minion kill with Q, whats different? Maybe I didnt read the notes clearly enough, but i dont see how your choices change at all.

Please explain?

RiotRiot ShadowStormJul 8, 201530 votes

{quoted}

Maybe im missing something, but besides trying to get a minion kill with Q, whats different? Maybe I didnt read the notes clearly enough, but i dont see how your choices change at all.

Please explain?

Sure. Let me start with current/live Miss Fortune. On paper it looks like the W active does 2 distinct things:

Increase Attack Speed, and
Apply Grievous Wounds

While that's a true summary, you generally want both of those at the exact same time. So there was no decision-making here... you just press W whenever you're auto-ing the enemy for an extended period of time. So really, her W active does only 1 thing:

You duel better for 6 seconds

Grievous Wounds isn't a decision, it's just there. Almost invisible power in a lot of cases. Some exceptions of course (looking at you, Volibear!), but the majority of the time you just aren't deciding between "optimal timing for attack speed steroid" and "optimal timing for grievous wounds" - they're the same.

With the update, that's no longer the case. There are actually 2 distinct parts now:

Increase Attack Speed, and
Reset passive (which is also better now)

And these are indeed 2 unique situations. Sometimes, they'll be competing with one another - in lane, if I activate W to chase/trade, I won't be able to use it to reset my passive when minion aggro knocks it off.

But knowing when to use each mode adds a skill element that was really lacking before. What's more, a more skilled MF will find ways to double up (see what I did there?) on the W benefits. Rather than needing to pick one or the other, you can actually have both, if you set up the right situations. Again, more reward for champ skill.

Now, just introducing these probably isn't worth it without adding some power elsewhere. But her Q and Passive are also better, and I consider E stronger too (others may disagree here). The Q change is particularly interesting in lane - get good at bouncing, and you can lane bully better than on live.

And really, that's what it comes down to for me at least. As somebody who enjoys playing current MF, and considers myself pretty successful with her, I don't often feel that I make good "MF plays". It's more that I make "good ADC plays with MF", so hopefully the extra decision-making and rewards allow me to express my skill better.

EDIT: Reminder that these are just my thoughts as a MF player. I'm not on the design team, so please don't take anything I'm saying here to be representative of overall philosophy, or even their intentions. I'm just excited for MF! =)

VDc0zCqe0wJul 8, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fGLJc4Px,comment-id=0000000100040000,timestamp=2015-07-08T07:37:02.707+0000)

Now, just introducing these probably isn't worth it without adding some power elsewhere. But her Q and Passive are also better, and I consider E stronger too (others may disagree here). The Q change is particularly interesting in lane - get good at bouncing, and you can lane bully better than on live.

can you elaborate on the E updates (the thing that bothers me the most)? right now it should be a utility one-point wonder, but it really isn't that...wonderful i guess...it scales really hard (at level 5 it's a very powerfull spell) but if you leave that at level 1 (wich you do for 3/4 of the game because there is no point in leveling that without highly decreasing your DPS) it is really lackluster

as an example, Ashe's E, Sivir's E are really good one-point wonders, while MF is clearly lacking in this aspect, many players don't even level that up until level 7 because of the huge mana cost wich is completely disproportionate for the low utility-damage it gives at level 1

RiotRiot ShadowStormJul 8, 201512 votes

{quoted}

can you elaborate on the E updates (the thing that bothers me the most)? right now it should be a utility one-point wonder, but it really isn't that...wonderful i guess...it scales really hard (at level 5 it's a very powerfull spell) but if you leave that at level 1 (wich you do for 3/4 of the game because there is no point in leveling that without highly decreasing your DPS) it is really lackluster

as an example, Ashe's E, Sivir's E are really good one-point wonders, while MF is clearly lacking in this aspect, many players don't even level that up until level 7 because of the huge mana cost wich is completely disproportionate for the low utility-damage it gives at level 1

From the update article:

We’ve increased the early rank slow, although it doesn’t scale up quite as fast. Overall, we’ve reduced the duration but kept the damage the same.

I think this makes it a better 1-point wonder than on live, with the stronger slow at level 1. The shorter duration might strike some people as a net nerf (and my one game isn't enough to say either way here), but on paper at least it should combine with W resetting Strut to give her a bit more ability to move out of sticky situations.

Khell DarkWolfJul 8, 20152 votes

Make it Rain [E] loses 100 base magic damage from losing 1 second of duration.

While the slow percent was increased, the loss of the damage from the 1 second is not warranted.

The fact that Grievous Wounds is being removed from Impure Shots [W] and being phased out, hell I want the base flat damage that was removed from it put back in to compensate.

Because this is an entire knee-jerk to her identity.

RiotRiot ShadowStormJul 8, 20158 votes

[{quoted}](name=Khell DarkWolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fGLJc4Px,comment-id=0000000100040000000000000003,timestamp=2015-07-08T15:04:38.219+0000)

Make it Rain [E] loses 100 base magic damage from losing 1 second of duration.

While the slow percent was increased, the loss of the damage from the 1 second is not warranted.

My understanding from reading the article is that total damage is unchanged, it just happens over a shorter duration. So DPS up, duration down, max damage unchanged. I could be wrong though... I'll update after numbers get released if that's the case.

Khell DarkWolfJul 8, 20152 votes

I hope you're correct, please do double check the numbers.

RiotRiot ShadowStormJul 9, 20151 votes

Checked it out on PBE just now - total magic damage is unchanged, but happens over the course of 2 seconds instead of 3. So that should be a reasonable buff to E.

Inting PillowJul 9, 20152 votes

That seems reasonable, but I think it needs a lower mana cost

Huang ShaotianJul 8, 201515 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot ShadowStorm,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fGLJc4Px,comment-id=0000000100040000,timestamp=2015-07-08T07:37:02.707+0000)

Grievous Wounds isn't a decision, it's just there. Almost invisible power in a lot of cases. Some exceptions of course (looking at you, Volibear!), but the majority of the time you just aren't deciding between "optimal timing for attack speed steroid" and "optimal timing for grievous wounds" - they're the same.

Pretty much the only reason I ever play MF is when the enemy is playing a heavy heal team. Without GW I can't see any reason to pick her up because all the other good ADC's do the same thing she does but better.

Imo rito took her core niche ability the thing that most defines MF excluding maybe her ultimate and removed it. I personally can't see why would I take MF over lucian ever? I don't see what she can bring to the table lucian can't plus a whole lot more.

I haven't played the new MF but tbh even if shes stronger/op the fact you took away her_ core identity_ to me as the 'anti heal' champion really bothers me. It's moments like these I remember why I don't buy skins, because rather than balance power rito changes whole kits essentially remaking and removing champions core identities.

Literally every champion you have reworked bar trundle I have stopped playing.

CosnirakJul 9, 20153 votes

I don't consider GW to be a part of her identity at all, let alone her core identity. To me her identity is about her ability to harass in unique ways and her huge ult that really requires proper timing and positioning but has a potentially huge pay off.

Huang ShaotianJul 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I don't consider GW to be a part of her identity at all, let alone her core identity. To me her identity is about her ability to harass in unique ways and her huge ult that really requires proper timing and positioning but has a potentially huge pay off.

That's why I said.

{quoted}

that most defines MF excluding maybe her ultimate

Really though not everyone is going to agree on what a champions core identities are.

5G8Nri0B54Jul 9, 20152 votes

I can see, and even understand how her R can define her.

But I also must add that IF Bullet Time is a core part of her identity, it should NOT be her core identity at all. It's far too team/enemy team reliant. Either the enemies have to be stupid enough, or you need a team comp that is accommodating enough to make her R work out. Not to mention, being an Ultimate, she won't have access to it till 6, which isn't a problem in itself, until you also take in the fact that it has an Ultimate's cooldown, so it isn't readily available to her often enough to rely upon as well.

I can accept it as one part of her identity. But I would say her anti-heal and duelist aspect is just as much a part of it.

Leu07Jul 9, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I can see, and even understand how her R can define her.

But I also must add that IF Bullet Time is a core part of her identity, it should NOT be her core identity at all. It's far too team/enemy team reliant. Either the enemies have to be stupid enough, or you need a team comp that is accommodating enough to make her R work out. Not to mention, being an Ultimate, she won't have access to it till 6, which isn't a problem in itself, until you also take in the fact that it has an Ultimate's cooldown, so it isn't readily available to her often enough to rely upon as well.

I can accept it as one part of her identity. But I would say her anti-heal and duelist aspect is just as much a part of it.

I consider her core identity to be that she's a risk taker (let's just take the sexy out of the equation, the only kit involving "sexy" is Ahri's). Most of her kit has severe downsides if used without measuring your oportunities to make it work to it's full extent. She's punished harder if she executes her combos wrong. High Mana costs on E and can be avoided easily, her Q has high yet unreliable damage. and her ult depends on way too many aspects to be effective. A passive, being her only "mobility tool" in her kit, can be removed even by minions if you decide to trade at the wrong time.

I thought they were going to do something similar to Ashe's kit tweaks tbh

There are several ideas in the forum that would improve her playstyle so much without making her op

5G8Nri0B54Jul 8, 201512 votes

Almost invisible power in a lot of cases.

I've mentioned before, but I disagree with this sentiment towards grievous wounds (tangentially related, DoT as well, another thing me and whoever handles these reworks disagree on).

In a trade against another ADC, the GW offers a really noticeable impact. Against a Soraka or another Heal-support, constantly keeping it on the enemy is really satisfying too (even if the enemy Support isn't even doing any healing) as you get the sense that you're seriously hampering the enemy team's ability to recuperate. As though your harass really sticks harder.

But speaking of Invisible Power........

With the update, that's no longer the case. There are actually 2 distinct parts now:
Reset passive (which is also better now)

Unless activating her W also adds some sort of damage shield, or provide her Passive a form of immunity for the first few seconds upon activation, I really can't see how this** isn't** Invisible Power.

This effect sure isn't going to let her escape a Xin Zhao.

As for her E. It's been underwhelming years ago, and still is now. I was kinda hoping this one ability would be overhauled into something useful. Having an AoE slow just isn't anything to write home about anymore. I'd rather replace the slow with a silence, because that would somehow do a better job at hampering enemy movements now than a meh slow.

Again I reiterate, no where near as extensive an experience with MF as you. But I don't think ability-level have any influence over whether a champion is satisfying or not. And having an ability that isn't worth casting, and having a satisfying debuff replaced by an unreliable "meh" effect kinda feels impotent.

DrNovaJul 8, 20158 votes

I dunno. I dont really see it.

That doesnt do anything to help her be an adc really. With grievous, while "hidden" it at least offered her an edge to combat other adc's. Cause lets face it she doesnt have as many tools or unique aspects like other adc's have. Applying grievous wounds could have a solid tangible impact on a duel.

In my personal opinion, her passive is pretty awful. Regardless of that though, say you use her W for the passive (speed boost essentially) One shot of anything and its gone. One minion hit, one quick AA from the enemy adc (or whoever the target is)

Wasting that skill for the speed aspect of it is just a ginormous waste of the skill. And in that respect it ISNT a choice.When you use W as intended, for dueling, you will end up getting the same thing as grievous wounds was, a little extra, except one that will be gone on the first hit and do nothing to help you fight.

I am a big MF fan as well, but I dont see this helping her at all, and personally dont see any choice on W still besides push W before a fight.

Now I am not super familiar with her passive because I generally ignore it when playing MF, but it goes like so. If she doesnt get hit for a few seconds, she runs faster. Unless the speed boost is increased, the new one is simply "ignite or temmo shroom or other DOT doesnt keep resetting it". But most DOT is going to be off anyways by the time the timer for the speed boost is back up. To me that doesnt seem like any kind of real good boost. Oh sure I can envision some perfect scenario like hitting a teemo shroom while running away and the enemy is far enough that the passive pops back up instead of keeping it reset, and maybe you get away. I'd rather have the useful, tangible old W any day.

Just me thoughts.

PoisonedPeaceJul 8, 20155 votes

With the update, that's no longer the case. There are actually 2 distinct parts now:

Increase Attack Speed, and Reset passive (which is also better now)

This is the fucked up part. According to you, they put more power into her kit by giving her decisions to make with her W. The problem with that is her power is strewn over entirely different focuses. You don't care about that movespeed when dueling the other ADC because they can kite just as well as you. Now you have an 'escape' but it is essentially useless and gives you no extra power.

VardenSaladJul 8, 20159 votes

Sure. Let me start with current/live Olaf. On paper it looks like W does two distinct things:

Increase Attack Speed, and
Increase healing

You duel better for 6 seconds

Etc.

I don't think I need to go on to show how poor your argument for this ability is. The things about steroids that make them good is that you ALWAYS WANT TO HAVE THEM, but can't because of cooldowns.

You need to work on your company line-toeing, community-placating posts. This is garbage tier.

Drunk RummateJul 8, 20155 votes

You say the grievous wounds isnt a decision, but it IS a decision. A decision you make at champion select. Like "hey, they picked Vlad/Swain/Mundo/Volibear, so MF would be an excellent choice as an ADC to deal with that"

LordGeovanniJul 8, 20155 votes

most carries automatically build life steal grievous wounds was a highly useful part of dueling. if you arnt smart enough to realise the loss in enemy sustain because you only focusing on the damage that you are doing to the enemy that isnt smart playing and also tunnel vision it becomes lucky playing for you because you dont fully understand all the elements that go into the fight