If Flash becomes a built-in summoner spell, like Recall

TheThundersRoar·Feb 18, 2016·86 votes·12,673 views

What happens to the balance of the game?

Since we've pretty much ruled out removing it, how about just handing it out? Since almost every champion takes it (except for maybe half a dozen, all of which can do fine with it anyway).

Will another single summoner spell take over? Will it actually create diversity and choice? Would it ruin the game or improve it?

Thoughts? _ (Keep in mind this can go on the PBE as an experiment to see how it actually plays out.)_

153 Comments

SleepyLionCubFeb 18, 201625 votes

would be super weird. and yes, I think we all know what summoner spell would take over. summoner 14

WalkingInACircleFeb 18, 201664 votes

Screw that, 5 summoner 12 meta.

WarlordTimFeb 18, 201613 votes

Why not both?

hazarthades2520Feb 18, 20161 votes

smite summoner 11 xD

jk i think its summoner 12 or summoner 7

DeathBurstFeb 18, 201618 votes

The fact that there are 3 different answers in the top comments show that it would probably create diversity...

Personally, I can see a few champ taking smite for the upgraded versions and the cheap enchants, lots of people would take ignite or TP, but there would probably be a fair share of defensive spells too. And ADC would probably take Cleanse.

MhihnjFeb 18, 20164 votes

Currently, whenever i go mid, i always have summoner 21 or summoner 3 ready.

RigorMordeisFeb 19, 20162 votes

I'm more of a summoner 12 mid super roam type, myself.

KhaZix BotFeb 18, 201625 votes

Honestly, I'd be more interested to see what would happen if flash was just removed completely. Think about it. With no escape, champions designed and balanced around not having an escape would actually have to play like it. Safe mages wouldn't be able to shove under tower and get one free escape from the jungler, for one.

FaieFeb 18, 201647 votes

This would just make mobile champs THAT much stronger than immobile champs. You can say goodbye to any champion without decent mobility in high level play.

ArakadiaFeb 18, 20166 votes

Any mobile champion is now broke AF.

B1naryB0tFeb 18, 20166 votes

So what changed?

aSingleLettuceDec 31, 20191 votes

really?

stealthfox94Feb 18, 201612 votes

That would be the stupidest idea ever.

Spicy RiceFeb 18, 201611 votes

And here, we see a critisicm with no analysis in the wild.

stealthfox94Feb 18, 20169 votes

Does it needs analysis? It would instantly make every immobile champ trash.

GlockHammerFeb 18, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=KhaZix Bot,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q3VQQysA,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-02-18T03:54:58.932+0000)

Honestly, I'd be more interested to see what would happen if flash was just removed completely. Think about it. With no escape, champions designed and balanced around not having an escape would actually have to play like it. Safe mages wouldn't be able to shove under tower and get one free escape from the jungler, for one.

Fully agree, I'd rather see how the game would be without flash (or even summoner spells at all) instead of having flash become a permanent spell.

And if it somehow does become a permanent, I will leave the game, not ranting or anything, just saying the game is becoming more and more not my cup of tea.

Serika ZeroFeb 18, 201615 votes

LeeSin pick rate would jump to 90%

kile147Feb 18, 20169 votes

Annie and Galio would be destroyed

SlippySloopFeb 19, 20162 votes

You don't need flash to save yourself from towers. Riot's made damn sure of that.

RiotMeddlerFeb 19, 201621 votes

Some thoughts on Flash:

We think overall the game's more interesting with a really long CD fast reposition available to all champions than it is without such a tool. Removing Flash doesn't make sense as a result.
For most champions not taking Flash isn't a reasonable option, so there's some missed opportunity in terms of offering meaningful choices there.
We don't believe that 3 summoner spells is an appropriate way to go, in terms of complexity increase and either power creep or power diffusion (having to remove power elsewhere to pay for the availability of the new spell if not just power creeping).
We could make Flash mandatory. Main thing that accomplishes is that it limits the small number of champions for whom Flash is optional. It also limits our ability to potentially expand that pool of champions a bit in the future (e.g. finding ways to make Ghost appealing on a few more champions via an item based upgrade or something similar). Cost of doing so seems higher than the benefits (helping new players primarily) as a result.

RebonackFeb 19, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Some thoughts on Flash:

We think overall the game's more interesting with a really long CD fast reposition available to all champions than it is without such a tool. Removing Flash doesn't make sense as a result.

For most champions not taking Flash isn't a reasonable option, so there's some missed opportunity in terms of offering meaningful choices there.

We don't believe that 3 summoner spells is an appropriate way to go, in terms of complexity increase and either power creep or power diffusion (having to remove power elsewhere to pay for the availability of the new spell if not just power creeping).

We could make Flash mandatory. Main thing that accomplishes is that it limits the small number of champions for whom Flash is optional. It also limits our ability to potentially expand that pool of champions a bit in the future (e.g. finding ways to make Ghost appealing on a few more champions via an item based upgrade or something similar). Cost of doing so seems higher than the benefits (helping new players primarily) as a result.

Or you could split Flash into two Summoner Spells, one with the ability to instantly reposition but no ability to bypass walls and a new Spell that can bypass walls via Magical Journey.

Being able to instantly reposition is already incredibly powerful, allowing it to bypass impassible terrain as well is overkill.

QuephaFeb 19, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Or you could split Flash into two Summoner Spells, one with the ability to instantly reposition but no ability to bypass walls and a new Spell that can bypass walls via Magical Journey.

Being able to instantly reposition is already incredibly powerful, allowing it to bypass impassible terrain as well is overkill.

So you want to nerf every champion that doesn't have a dash? You think those champions have been on top for too long and should let mobile champions like Zed have a chance to shine?

KinjishiFeb 19, 20162 votes

Zed has never stopped shining. Let's be realistic.

QuephaFeb 19, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Yasu Yoru,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q3VQQysA,comment-id=0033000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-19T05:47:20.750+0000)

Zed has never stopped shining. Let's be realistic.

That's the joke.

Remlap1223Feb 19, 20166 votes

While I agree with your points on flash, are you looking at improving the other summoner spells in the near future? summoner 21 summoner 1 summoner 6

TheThundersRoarFeb 19, 20165 votes

Power creep/diffusion and complexity makes sense. But since all champions get the extra summoner spell, every champion can pick two summoners that best suit them and their playstyle.

It will probably mess with balance quite a bit, but every summoner other than Clairvoyance will likely significant use and this will probably significantly shake up the meta. You might be able to toss this out into the PBE and see what happens.

PrismaticFeb 19, 20166 votes

Honestly, it just seems completely unreasonable that having one summoner spell be 99.8% used on everyone remain that way. Why not try to force everyone to have flash (because literally 99.8% of the time they are running it.) and allow one different summoner spell alongside it? It could allow non-flash summoners to have power put into them and solidify what type of activity your champion wants to do (teleport for map mobility, ghost for chasing, ignite for execution, exhaust for defence, etc). Simply because at this moment, its a noob trap on all but a very small group of champions to not take flash. Riot should do something about it, simply because of the momentous usage rate this spell has.

Remlap1223Feb 19, 20163 votes

Honestly, I'd upvote this just so that Shaco can't take fucking ignite in the jungle. That is some goddamn bullshit and everyone knows it.

CosnirakFeb 19, 201611 votes

"We could make Flash mandatory. Main thing that accomplishes is that it limits the small number of champions for whom Flash is optional. It also limits our ability to potentially expand that pool of champions a bit in the future (e.g. finding ways to make Ghost appealing on a few more champions via an item based upgrade or something similar). Cost of doing so seems higher than the benefits (helping new players primarily) as a result."

OneSmoothDudeFeb 19, 20167 votes

It doesn't look like you read Meddler's post, even though you replied to it.

I'm stumped.

ItemsGuyFeb 19, 20162 votes

What would you say it is that makes a game with Flash more interesting than a game without it? I can understand that having anything with flexible use, a powerful effect, and a long cooldown can lead to some interesting use cases, but most of the time (even in LCS and Worlds), I mostly see it used as a gimme or a crutch. Accidentally stepped out of position or got caught out? You've got Flash for that. Enemy managed to get away from you with a sliver of health and you're not quite close enough to use your ult? You've got Flash for that. Dude you're ganking saw you coming but you still want to get that kill? You've got Flash for that. Didn't see the jungler coming after they took the time to coordinate with their ally but want to not die anyway? You've got Flash for that. Enemies on your ass and you aren't close enough to your tower to fend them off? You've got Flash for that. Overstayed your welcome under the enemy's tower and know that the shot after this one will kill you? You've got Flash for that, etc., etc., etc.

While there's no doubt that there's pockets of depth that Flash brings to the game that wouldn't be so universal if it didn't exist, it honestly feels like something that dumbs down the game as a whole - since for every cool and strategic use for it, there are hundreds of get-out-of-jail-free cards. The "big plays" involving Flash that Riot and the eSports community talk about are more often than not really, well, flashy displays of split-second reaction time (Thresh flashing through an Ashe ult and hooking her immediately, for example), rather than jaw-dropping moments of strategic and tactical finesse. There's nothing wrong with a little shock and awe, of course, but it feels a bit misaligned with the strategic depth that you guys are constantly seeking to add to and refine within League of Legends!

I guess in general, I'm more inclined to agree with Zileas on this one. Not to say that League isn't already fun with Flash as a mandatory summoner spell, or that the inclusion of Flash drastically reduces the possible variety of champion types and playstyles, but I do think that a game without Flash would lead to a playerbase that ultimately improves at the game at a faster pace (since lessons in the form of grey screens tend to be more effective than the slap on the wrist of having to wait a few minutes before you can safely screw up again), a game filled with greater and more impactful gameplay consequences (especially in professional play), and a competitive roster that isn't limited to, more or less, who can optimize this really, really powerful tool the most.

MetalGearTeemuFeb 19, 20163 votes

"We were slow to address flash being staple on 95% of the cast and now we've designed ourselves into a corner around it, and frankly do not have the talent or the manpower to overhaul the game for the removal of flash, and have no idea how to fix the problem outside of that. "

I filtered that for the rest of us. [slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

CamudakiFeb 25, 20161 votes

That last bullet point. Can't say I agree with you there and ask that you consider odd summoners such as myself.

I personally stopped using summoner 4 Flash around season 3 and am having plenty of fun and success taking summoner 6 Ghost on every champion I play. (Diamond Season 5 though not very active in ranked if that detail matters at all.)

summoner 4 Flash has it's uses, I can see that. However summoner 6 Ghost allows for its own unique strategical mindgames and options due to its long duration mobility.

There's nothing more fun than popping summoner 6 Ghost as Alistar Alistar and deftly dodging skillshots by running about as your opponents panic as you jog alongside them. Popping summoner 4 Flash only to see you sprint back up to them for the Pulverise.

summoner 4 Flash is about making a play quickly so that your opponent cannot react to you or to save you from a bad position. I personally prefer the slower, strategical approach summoner 6 Ghost offers me that lets me work around my opponent's efforts to slow me down.

Slamurai JackFeb 18, 201618 votes

Every carry now takes summoner 1 as their second summoner spell. Hooray for worthless CC!

Fear PopoFeb 18, 201614 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Q3VQQysA,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2016-02-18T04:01:43.696+0000)

Every carry now takes as their second summoner spell. Hooray for worthless CC!

Welcome to the Heal/Cleanse meta, where the positioning is unneeded and the CC's don't matter. http://41.media.tumblr.com/113c77e6d09a014c4c01af1ce51eb1ec/tumblr_mfra5zPups1qar86bo1_500.jpg

But seriously, that's a genuinely awful idea.

SpoofghoulFeb 18, 201617 votes

summoner 4 summoner 12 summoner 6

item 1333

i see no problems with this

Definitely BaitFeb 18, 201612 votes

summoner 3 summoner 14 summoner 21 summoner 7 Would probably be the most common spells still.

summoner 13 Would be utterly nasty for mages that are gated by early game mana problems.

Hecarim Shaco Evelynn

Would receive a big indirect buff since they already don't run flash most of the time.

Udyr + summoner 4 summoner 6 summoner 11 Would be hilariously funny.

{{summoner:2}} Will still universally be considered near worthless.

Overall I think it'd be a good change. Flash is used enough that it really should be just a baked in ability. It'd also be a good excuse to show summoner spell cooldowns like they did with dragon / baron spawn timers. I mean not showing them is already pretty pointless for good players (They keep timers when summoners are popped anyway)

Ruin LanceFeb 18, 20164 votes

clarity and clairvoyance not in normals

Definitely BaitFeb 18, 20163 votes

It was meant to a be a subtle hint that one should be and the other is pointless to show on the spell page with the removal of dominion.

BonipherusFeb 18, 20169 votes

I've said this multiple times. Riot wants it, the community wants it, and other summoner spells arent allowed to be as strong as it. Just give it a permanent binding and let us choose 2 real summoners. If they make the spell a standard then they can even balance the cd on each champion. Immobile Ashe? well you get a reduced cooldown on it. Super mobile Kassadin? You can have it but hold on to this long ass cd.

ModWulf HelhammerFeb 18, 20161 votes

So you want to fight against juglers with Smite and Ignite, and then don't have to worry about not having an escape? Or the same for ADCs with Heal ignite?

NichtHurzFeb 18, 20163 votes

exhaust > ignite on most adc's. If you exhaust the Zed that is jumping towards you you'll most likely kill him as ADC, with ignite you just deal more damage. Or you go for exhaust ignite/cleanse and support goes heal ignite/exhaust.

ltmetalFeb 18, 20165 votes

Bump. I would love to see this or many other solutions to the flash is mandatory for 5 seasons problem.

Paladin 0f LifeFeb 18, 20164 votes

What about summoner 6 or summoner 4 for it since some champs do the other

CaffeintFeb 18, 20164 votes

Which button will it go on?

win willFeb 18, 20163 votes

in dota 2 the flash is a item. Would this work in league?

WolfBVFeb 18, 20162 votes

I'd say summoner 3 summoner 14 summoner 12 and maybe summoner 11 would become more popular picks. All these combined: summoner 13 {{summoner:2}} make up less than 0.5% of all summoners chosen.

LankPantsFeb 18, 20167 votes

Cleanse would be a godlike summoner in a situation where there's effectively 3 slots. It's a very strong summoner that already sees reasonable high end play, Heal/Ignite/TP and Cleanse would all be good combos on Mages while Heal/Cleanse would probably be the go-to for ADCs.

UnlimiloreFeb 18, 20162 votes

I mean this actually has some weight to it. Recall used to be exactly in this stage before it became a summoner spell. Back in the way old days of league recall was indeed a ss, And everyone took it leading riot to just allow all champions to use it. We may have another freebie spell guys.

CitadelOfIceFeb 18, 20162 votes

I would start running smite as a support. That way I could help contest objective, get another 2 wards, get a stat boost, and have full crab control. I would have vision for days and would love it. Also could counter JG much easier since I could take camps in an instant. Also would give sups an XP boost when they need it so they could snowball with there ADCs.