Why Pyke Fails Fundamentally.

CloakAndGrenade··4 votes·4,910 views

I know it is too early to really tell for sure, but there are some factors that might clue in on why Pyke has the lowest win rate in League right now that don't have anything to do with skill-curve.

  1. Pyke has no escape. Aside from his stealth-dash engage pattern, which is his only reliable form of engaging. A successful assassin has a form of getting out once they are in. Zed can return to his shadow, Leblanc can distort out, Talon can parkour over terrain, and both Ekko and Evelynn can ult out of a bad situation. Pyke doesn't really have this option. Unlike those listed above, Pyke has to sacrifice part of his engage for dis-engage. Unless some really hard follow up is brought with it, Pyke needs to use his dash-stun in order to secure most kills.

  2. Pyke Cannot build Tanky. Because of what is listed above, Pyke's kit functions more like the diver class of Champion. However, unlike Diana, Shyvanna, and so on, Pyke has no built-in survivability. Once champions like Vi are in, they are stuck there. But these champions have built-in resistances, sustain, and shields to help them survive. Not only that, most of these champions tend to build more bruiser. One or two damage items followed by tank (Diana an exception, AP scaling shield FTW). Pyke cannot build these items, as the HP will simply be converted into AD, and with no HP, resistances are rather underwhelming. Even Zed builds a Black Cleaver.

  3. Feast or Famine, Mostly Famine. Pyke's inability to build tank items means when he falls behind, he falls very behind. There is no building to be a utility machine after losing the early game. There is no waiting for the late game. Pyke's ultimate has a very narrow window of usage, though it is strong, it doesn't leave him a lot of strategic options in team fights. The possibility for a chain ultimate for multiple kills is certainly there, but with him being so squishy, a single stun or snare is game over. Pyke from behind or late game Pyke, in general, is all but a kamikaze.

  4. Compositional Failure. With Kha Zix, Rengar, and Xin Zou being incredibly popular in the jungle, utility ADC's being pretty solidly out of the meta, and bruisers like Irelia and Jax being common in the top lane, solid front-liners are rarely being played. Or at the very least, it is far more common then it has been in awhile to see a non-tank in the top lane, which isn't truly a bad thing. However, this typically means that a team comp is going to lack CC and tank outside of the support role. When you have Irelia, Leblanc, Kha-Zix, and a Draven, the last thing you need is more damage. You need utility, team fight, and frontline. While Pyke provides some CC, compared to an Alistar or a Braum, he leaves a lot to be desired.

So all in all, I think Pyke had potential, but in execution, his concept has a few fundamental flaws that prevent him from being truly viable.

So, some proposed solutions. A) Give Pyke a reset on his stealth after a kill. This will give Pyke the option to attempt to exit the fight, instead of ulting further in. A reset on his E would provide too much damage and CC.

And/Or

B) Increase HP and resistance scaling into the mid-game. Pyke should be able to take a hit or two while diving in. He HAS to get into melee range to do damage, and currently gets obliterated by most AoE spells by the mid game. Nothing too crazy, but enough to make him feel more like an assassin, and less like a water baloon filled with blood chucked at a brick wall.

12 Comments

Rouxful2 votes

One of the arguments is that you named all full assassins that usually are trying to catch our targets alone. Pyke is a support assassin and thrives on roaming and acting like an annoying fish that you can not see constantly ripping pieces off of you until the full engage. Also, many people are not building dmg on him and are getting utility items with health so they can have utility but also dmg from the converted health as well. I do like your idea of how to give him a buff with the stealth reset if he remains a low wr though.

IcyPepper1 votes

Pyke is a support assassin and thrives on roaming and acting like an annoying fish that you can not see constantly ripping pieces off of you until the full engage.

Can confirm, this is my preferred playstyle.

item 3097 item 3117 item 3147 item 3142 item 3364 with a predator + nimbus cloak + celerity and other appropriate AD/MS raising runes can make you an annoying shark. Juggle your item cooldowns correctly and you'll be fast with 100% uptime even during mobi boots.

Gabresol1 votes

{quoted}

Can confirm, this is my preferred playstyle.

item 3097 item 3117 item 3147 item 3142 item 3364 with a predator + nimbus cloak + celerity and other appropriate AD/MS raising runes can make you an annoying shark. Juggle your item cooldowns correctly and you'll be fast with 100% uptime even during mobi boots.

That is his whole thing! He is a shark, stalking his prey and attacking out of no where. His whole designs screams roaming support, but that is kind of a failure in itself, when you think about it.

With Botlane turret being so vulnerable, pykes roams could easily end up in it falling, while a roam kill in mid does not come close to offering the turret. Mid is his favourable roam as support, but midlane is so short that most champions are just to save to gank, if they do not overextend.

Pyke is stuck on botlane, since his gank-success chances are lower than the chances of his adc getting killed by a gank in the mean time.

IcyPepper1 votes

Just gotta know when to gank. I prefer to gank midgame after getting mobi boots, and it's safer and more reliable to gank past that as you get more items.

And you don't always have to gank, but depending on the matchup your bot lane carry should at the very least be able to handle themselves solo for a bit (there are times when they have to be alone, whether you've died, they've rotated on their own, etc etc so the skill should be there).

King of Demons1 votes

If you don't build tank items on him you're doing it wrong- He's not a failure

DrCyanide1 votes
  1. Is because he's effectively there to Assist (or Kill Steal), not to 1v1 or 1v5.
  2. Pyke has higher base Health and Armor to make up some of that. Additionally, Edge of Night gives him some increased survivability with it's shield while also giving him 73 AD.
  3. Might be handled by Frozen Mallet, which adds a slow and gives him 80 AD. He also might be better off split pushing when behind, using everything in his kit to escape.
  4. Is current meta, which like all current metas will change, not a fundamental.

Yes, he's somewhat feast or famine, but I don't think we've had enough time with him to see what he can do. Many, many, many champions start out with ~44% win rates, only to be strong the next patch as a result of people learning them and being slightly buffed.

eaglei31 votes

I have had a lot more success on Pyke building tank items or utility items over straight dmg items. Adaptive helmet and deadmans plate are good buys on him in my opinion.

The one thing I do think he suffers in is that since he only gains hp per lvl, the slower rate that supports level at in games behind the typical carries really hurts him.

Baron Barian1 votes
  1. His E is multi-purpose. A fair range dash that can even go over walls. I'm made escapes like that in the few games I've played with him. And once you're out of range, the W secures the escape. But if you used it in an engage that ends up killing you, then it was oviously a bad engage, with the fault being the player, not the champion.

  2. Most supports can't. Soraka, Nami, even most mages will either build all damage or all utility. Even actual tank supports often (should) sacrifice real tankiness with things like Knight's Vow or Locket. This is absolutely nothing new to the game.

  3. He does not carry as a support, and getting gold on him is easy because of his ult. If he snowballs, that's great. If he doesn't, it's fine. He still has good roaming, good CC (both soft and hard), and he can even catch up well if you play it right.

  4. This is the one thing you really make a good point in, but it's something every support needs to keep in mind. Some compositions don't need a tank support, some can sustain without a healer, and sometimes a team doesn't need the extra damage from Pyke. We only see him a lot now because he's new, but in the foreseeable future, people will know when playing him is a good call.

  5. (bonus round) Small tip for you if any of this is from personal experience: Don't have your first games as Pyke be in ranked.

Azadethe1 votes

I Jungle him and outperform my team completely. I can be 16/6/12 in a game where my support is 1/9/4, adc 3/9/7, top 4/6/6, and Mid 9/9/8.

I just found btw that W seems to work great when you're dealing with a tanky Pyke with items like item 3025 to help soak some damage.

Malix Farwin1 votes

He doesn't need to build tanky, he is an assassin. How many Zeds and Talons do you know who build tanky. There are also supports that do not build tanky as well, his passive is a strength because it allows him more items to build to gain power.

Lets also not forget about his passive that heals some of the dmg he takes when you exits combat.

Gabresol1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PohmkeHE,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-06-07T00:51:24.011+0000)

He doesn't need to build tanky, he is an assassin. How many Zeds and Talons do you know who build tanky. There are also supports that do not build tanky as well, his passive is a strength because it allows him more items to build to gain power.

Lets also not forget about his passive that heals some of the dmg he takes when you exits combat.

The difference with Zed and Talon being their abilitiy to escape, while pyes abilities will be all on cd after the engage

Regulas1 votes

So after a lot of trial and error I've come away with methods to play him effectively.

The big thing is that you need armor and magic resistance, Hexdrinker is especially good for it's shield effect, any HP item is also an ok pick since they give enough dmg along with their other effects. However try to go for items that still have hp or dmg since you do need your dmg to increase.

For runes I go Glacial with resolve secondary taking overgrowth and conditioning (especially worthwhile since it's later when you really need the bonus resists). Free boots and biscuits, along with CD all help to minimise item costs and maintain lane HP and mana.

You must use your Passive pro-actively healing every chance you can. It's insane healing and in conjunction with pots you should spend laning phase almost always at full HP. Do hit and runs (engage with E/Q, run with W), helped alot by glacials hits. Tell your ADC not to overcmit trying to save you as you can probably get away more easily then if they turn on him.

You must save your W for escape, unless it's to engage on a gank or situational usage. Remember being hit does not stop it's effect so it's really solid for escaping.

You are ultimately a support so you want to focus on working with teamates and not just trying to dive maddeingly.

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