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PSA: 10 bans cannot ban out any roles

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb··60 votes·4,109 views

http://champion.gg/statistics/

Before you go whining about the possibility that all ADCs get banned out. No, they don't. The only way someone could not potentially play an adc is if every ban and pick is an adc. Then two people can't play ADC. Can't stand the thought of having your meta banned? Most of those champs are below 50% winrate. Pick what works for you, and you won't have to worry about bans in soloQ

EDIT: It seems this thread has picked up a bit. Here's a few responses/explanations/solutions:

Both team captains are somehow on the same page about bans. They will rarely be. Assuming captain A has a vendetta against adcs, and captain B sees a jinx or sivir ban as worth while, you'd get like 7 tops, assuming captain A doesn't ban those first. This is why I save what I believe are the enemy's likely highest priority for last. If they ban something I would have banned anyway, I get a free ban, essentially.

We have other options for pick and ban. Instead of giving the team captain 5 bans, we could give everyone a single ban. I believe this will skew the bans toward lane counters, which will make banning out of a role near impossible, since everyone has to cooperate on both teams to do that. We could also go to the dota p&b style, which allows mid pick phase bans. This allows a significant increase in strategic banning potential, and reduces the blanket effect of those later bans, certain champs can slip through in the first pick, while their synergies are then banned off.

If you play nothing but meta picks and are worried about getting banned out. You already have that problem. Work on some pocket picks. I doubt you leveled to 30 on meta picks, and I don't know about you, but my Karthus is still a fucking beast, even though I rarely play him anymore. Fun fact: if you pick off meta, people tend not to know that matchups. Someone picks jax into singed? That guy is screwed.

10 bans doesn't magically open the possibilities that you get completely banned out. The possibility exists with the current count. Does it increase the risk? Certainly. This is the kind of thing you go into ranked with a backup plan for. You ability to prepare is part of your overall performance, and adapting to the changes is key to reaching or staying at the top. As a jungle main, I'm pretty sure I have authority over damn near anyone on this, since it changes in ways that should by all logic make 10 ban deniers physically sick.

The thing about banning is that if you try to ban one thing, it opens a hole for another. Want to ban flex picks? You can't ban all ADCs. Want to ban meta? You're not hitting your lane counters. There's inherent tradeoffs and risks to what you do and don't ban. END EDIT

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133 Comments

1st HanarSpectre19 votes

When people say "ban out a role" they don't mean every single champion with that tag, but rather the available champion pool to people. It's ridiculous to assume that everyone owns every single champion, it's also ridiculous to assume that you always get your best/preferred/largest champion roster role, so with a higher number of ban, it raise the chances that teammate stuck in a non main role could get screwed.

Tentacle Love8 votes

[{quoted}](name=1st HanarSpectre,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PQBZ0nE6,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-23T18:32:41.363+0000)

When people say "ban out a role" they don't mean every single champion with that tag, but rather the available champion pool to people. It's ridiculous to assume that everyone owns every single champion, it's also ridiculous to assume that you always get your best/preferred/largest champion roster role, so with a higher number of ban, it raise the chances that teammate stuck in a non main role could get screwed.

If you play ADC's, and you don't have 7 of them that you can play, I think you need to expand your roster a bit. That's probably the most restrictive of the roles. For any other lane, you have a heck of a lot more options for diversity. And there will always be opportunities to play "Rogue" or "off-meta" builds. Remember that if you have to, your opponent probably has to as well.

In a realistic situation, if your team is participating in the banning out of a role, then you're literally doing it on purpose or you're dumb enough to be playing in solo queue and you reap what you sow. (yeah, we all know that feel)

If you're not responsible for the banning out of your mains, then get more mains.

1st HanarSpectre4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Love Tentacle,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PQBZ0nE6,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-04-23T18:44:42.693+0000)

If you play ADC's, and you don't have 7 of them that you can play, I think you need to expand your roster a bit. That's probably the most restrictive of the roles. For any other lane, you have a heck of a lot more options for diversity. And there will always be opportunities to play "Rogue" or "off-meta" builds. Remember that if you have to, your opponent probably has to as well.

In a realistic situation, if your team is participating in the banning out of a role, then you're literally doing it on purpose or you're dumb enough to be playing in solo queue and you reap what you sow. (yeah, we all know that feel)

If you're not responsible for the banning out of your mains, then get more mains.

Read again. You can be a mid/top main with a full 30 champion roster under your belt, and there are still game where you will be shoved to support or carry, a role that you don't specialise and thus won't own a lot of champions.

And yes, you could potentially pick a pantheon bot lane, but those pick just about always draw ire from the rest of your team.

AMYS GRAVE6 votes

You should be competent in all roles with several champions owned for each role with several flex picks. If you are a top laner who is asked to support and you oblige you have several options, even if you don't own any "supports". Top laners that are capable supports include but are not limited to:

Chogath DrMundo Gangplank Garen Gnar Kayle Kennen Lissandra Lulu Malphite Maokai Olaf Ryze Shen Singed Sion Tryndamere Volibear

So over half of your top lane pool can support as well. I remain dubious that you can actually be banned out if you know and own a reasonable number and diversity of champions. Even in the super specialized case of only owning top laners you have champs that can take on every other role.

1st HanarSpectre2 votes

{quoted}

You should be competent in all roles with several champions owned for each role with several flex picks. If you are a top laner who is asked to support and you oblige you have several options, even if you don't own any "supports". Top laners that are capable supports include but are not limited to:

Chogath DrMundo Gangplank Garen Gnar Kayle Kennen Lissandra Lulu Malphite Maokai Olaf Ryze Shen Singed Sion Tryndamere Volibear

so over half of your top lane pool can support as well.

I'll play shen ad carry, we'll see how many report I rack up at the end of the game.

AMYS GRAVE6 votes

I said support, not adc.... but if you want to see adcs then...

Top laners that can adc include but are not limited to: Gangplank Gnar Kayle Kennen Lissandra Lulu Nidalee Quinn

So if they ban out all the ranged top laners that can carry bot lane then i think it's fair to say that they aren't banning adcs, and it's perfectly fair to ask you to own an adc or two before jumping into ranked.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb11 votes

And how would you propose banning out someone on the enemy team? What champs do they play? Does anyone know? They could have a pocket mf, but how the hell would you know

1st HanarSpectre3 votes

The point isn't whether or not it's very likely to happen, but the fact that it can happen contrary to your statement made in the OP.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb10 votes

This happens already. Having a shallow champ pool is already something that people deal with. I have like 6 champs I like to play across 3 roles, total, and I've only been banned/roled out a few times in my ranked history.

XinZhao2WinNhao11 votes

[{quoted}](name=hgjkdlsaf jeldvb,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PQBZ0nE6,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-04-23T18:59:31.578+0000)

And how would you propose banning out someone on the enemy team? What champs do they play? Does anyone know? They could have a pocket mf, but how the hell would you know

They can play another champion out of their 16 they are required to have for ranked. Nobody says you have to play meta

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb5 votes

it would increase the required to 20, which is the only legitimate argument for not increasing ban count, but I agree. You don't have to play meta. The very idea that the meta is mostly driven by LCS picks is retarded.

Aych Pii6 votes

"The only legitimate argument"

You really don't get to just say that, dude.

Chief Kebbie2 votes

Except for everyone on your team raging cause your not playing meta

Z Statistic1 votes

I remember very clearly as captain in my games as ranked where for the entire team, they had literally only 20 champions whereas my team had 100+ because I own a ridiculous amount of champions. In those situations, you can use process of elimination.

If the only ADC the team owns is Ashe, then I'm going to fucking ban Ashe. Yes, that is what happened. Yes, they were fucked. Yes, we rolled all over them. Increasing team bans really screws over teams that don't have a larger variety of champions, but it still affects pros because it's not so much banning out supports but banning out supports who can do XYZ.

Worst Mid Ever6 votes

80% of champions have a less than 1% ban rate, if you only play FoTM champions and they all get banned in the same game that is your problem.

I only play Ahri Fizz mid LeeSin JarvanIV jungle and Janna Leona support, I've only had 4 bans against Ahri and 1 against Leona in 183 games this season, I have never had to step outside my really limited champion pool, they get picked by the enemy more than they are banned.

Serevas5 votes

So as a mid main I'm expected to have a full champion pool of every champion in every role? I rarely play ADC, 10 bans is plenty to decimate my ADC champion pool.

If everyone got their own role specifically, perhaps then we could actually deal with 10 bans because it's very unlikely that all of my mid lane champions get banned out.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb2 votes

No, but I'd expect that you have at least a few champs that aren't necessarily meta to fall back on. Or you could try asking your captain to leave a few adcs open if you see both your team and theirs banning adcs only. Or, if everyone has 1 ban, you could not worry about it at all.

Serevas2 votes

You say that like people always ban meta things exclusively. More often than not they ban things they hate playing against.

Penguin Eclipse5 votes

{quoted}

So as a mid main I'm expected to have a full champion pool of every champion in every role? I rarely play ADC, 10 bans is plenty to decimate my ADC champion pool.

If everyone got their own role specifically, perhaps then we could actually deal with 10 bans because it's very unlikely that all of my mid lane champions get banned out.

If you don't abuse fotm champions or copy LCS then you have nothing to worry about.

DemiluniS2 votes

can you give me a legit reason for more bans ?! There's really nothing other than limiting the champion pool by even more champions. And no it's not making the game more diverse, since people gonna pick other champions because they forced to, not because of their strategic value

AMYS GRAVE4 votes

Bans are meant to do a few things. Firstly, if there are any champions whose balance is off, we can keep them out of our games. Secondly, If there are champions that counter a particular strategy we can ban them to run that strategy. For example if we run a seige comp we might want to ban waveclear champs. 6 bans is generally fine for the first purpose but certainly not enough for the second.

When draft pick first came out there were 56 Champions and 6 bans, so you could ban ~10% of the champion pool. As the champion roster has more than doubled the bans haven't grown with it and we are down to only being able to ban ~4.8%. To expand it to 10 bans now is only ~8% so it is less limiting than bans were upon release of draft pick. We used to be able to ban away certain strategies, but now we can't.

FlamingFrostbite4 votes

Is there a reason we need 10 bans? What would extra bans help with?

Nucleophilic atk4 votes

So people like him can ban out all the champs they think are "omg rito plz nerf".

1011001110004 votes

Or how about champions of we don't like playing against or are just better than what a person wants to pick? I would ban Kat and LeBlanc not because people say they're op, but because they're annoying as shit to play against.

DemiluniS1 votes

it's only 2 bans out of 3 you got. Having the ability to ban all the strong picks make the ban phase meaningless since you just making the game easier for yourself, denying strong picks from your own team

1011001110002 votes

...seriously? The point of banning certain champions is to literally make the game easier for your team. What the fuck is wrong with you.

Teammates should be communicating during champ select going "Don't ban A D G X or Z, I play those top lane". There should be no fuckin reason you get banned out of a role by YOUR OWN TEAM.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb6 votes

Damn fucking straight. Nunu, Sion, Jinx, Sivir, and wu can all never be in my games. I don't ban meta picks. I ban champs have a high win rate with a decent chance of being in my game.

Having 10 bans is perfectly fine, and the ban count should expand with champ count. When you have a champ like kass, back when he HAD to be banned, if you weren't 1st ban, a smart team captain would force you to ban kass with a bluff or by actually being able to pick him. When the balance is particularly fucked up, and don't act like this doesn't happen, having the extra bans saves a lot of people a lot of headache.

Penguin Eclipse4 votes

{quoted}

Is there a reason we need 10 bans? What would extra bans help with?

It would help break the toxic cycle of only picking the fotm or lcs dominated champions.

FlamingFrostbite3 votes

LCS or FoTM Champions will always be a thing, extra bans wont do anything to assuage it. Also, I'm never against people doing them, when the entire game starts to follow them its easy to just learn how to counter it.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb2 votes

LCS picks will also have to expand. It doesn't do much, other than push the perceived strength of available champs down a bit, and therefore, probably increasing variability in champ picks.

Penguin Eclipse2 votes

[{quoted}](name=hgjkdlsaf jeldvb,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PQBZ0nE6,comment-id=000200010001,timestamp=2015-04-23T19:30:42.234+0000)

LCS picks will also have to expand. It doesn't do much, other than push the perceived strength of available champs down a bit, and therefore, probably increasing variability in champ picks.

That expansion may be on the of the healthiest things done to this game in a long time. Especially if each person gets a ban in solo Q.

Volt Cruelerz4 votes

Raising the ban number means that each person would have to be comfortable on 11 champions per role, requiring a champion pool of 55 to be able to always be comfortable.

Remember, bans are supposed to make the game more fun by allowing OP champions to be banned until nerfs can come in in addition to banning champions that counter your composition. Merely increasing ban count will only require people to have larger pools, increasing barrier to entry on this game which is already high. No.

EDIT: it seems people seem to think flex picks are a solution. They're not. Ban Lulu, Kog'Maw, TF, Choggy, and Kennen. Now you've suddenly drastically reduced the options for people that played those flex picks because banning a flex pick effectively counts multiple times toward the aforementioned 55. My point is, adding more bans won't make the game more fun and will only increase the barrier to entry.

Also, take a moment to consider what this would do to the professional scene. You could neutralize two players with ease, or at minimum force them into what you want. That's not more fun for them and will hurt the viability of that career.

The point of a game is to be more fun. Going up to 10 bans won't improve that.

Delioth4 votes

That would require A) BOTH teams to focus on banning out a single role- and you can generally count on at least your own team to not ban ONE of two guys for you; and B) that there are 10 bans for EACH role.

So while one person might be stuck on a sub-ideal champion for their role, every other person on the team had their pick of the litter.

AMYS GRAVE6 votes

Lulu can be played in any role. If you learn flex picks you don't need 55. Do you know kennen, he fits in 4 roles. Do you know TF, all 5 positions. You still only need 25 champions to not be banned out which isn't that different than the 20 required to play ranked.

Champion Skin4 votes

You really think both teams would want to ban 5 champions from one role? Why would they do that?

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb3 votes

Buddy, I'm able to play Amumu Sejuani Singed Malzahar Karthus Swain well enough that I'm willing to play them in ranked. I'm sincerely not worried about being banned out. If I'm forced to ADC, KogMaw Caitlyn are my goto, and if it's really THAT bottom of the barrel, I think I can probably get away with just about anything.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb2 votes

Ok, so you banned the flex picks. Suddenly the whole list of ADCs is open, and no roles have been banned out. See what I did there?

A Palmtop Tiger2 votes

So basically with 10 bans we never get to see Katarina, Zed, Leblanc in any of our solo queue games. What about people who main those champions? The fact that you cannot ban out all viable mid laners does not make it a healthy decision.

Sejuani is banned 83.79% of all solo queue games. Katarina is banned 52.13% of the time. Leblanc is banned 39.82% of the time.

With 10 bans you can go ahead and say goodbye to these champions.

windwolf7774 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Palmtop Tiger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PQBZ0nE6,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-04-23T23:37:46.321+0000)

So basically with 10 bans we never get to see Katarina, Zed, Leblanc in any of our solo queue games. What about people who main those champions? The fact that you cannot ban out all viable mid laners does not make it a healthy decision.

Sejuani is banned 83.79% of all solo queue games. Katarina is banned 52.13% of the time. Leblanc is banned 39.82% of the time.

With 10 bans you can go ahead and say goodbye to these champions.

Or ya know, make something like Dota's captains mode PB order. Or just something like it

manbearswine4 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Palmtop Tiger,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PQBZ0nE6,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-04-23T23:37:46.321+0000)

So basically with 10 bans we never get to see Katarina, Zed, Leblanc in any of our solo queue games. What about people who main those champions?

What about those who main broken champions who will reach 100% banrate? I don't know,to me the bigger issue seems to be that the champion will get a 100% banrate,it's as if something is wrong with the champion and it shouldn't enter games in it's current state. I'd say that the bigger issue with le blanc currently isn't that she has trouble getting past ban phase,but the fact she actually manages to do that on occasion.

But that's just the obvious answer,but yeah you go ahead and fill sorry for mains of broken nonsense.

Junkο1 votes

There is a difference between a champion being broken (see old Kassadin with 100% pick/ban rate), or people just jumping on a big hate train (Katarina, Akali, Yasuo...). Hell Akali and Yasuo are both fairly weak right now after their nerfs, but they are still banned every few games i play.

Earl Eulrich2 votes

If a Champ reaches 100%banrate he´s clearly very frustrating to play against - doesn´t matter if he´s broken or not then. Having Champs perma-banned by community vote till they are reworked into less frustrating opponents is absolutely fine with me.

manbearswine1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hurny Quilva,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=PQBZ0nE6,comment-id=000800020000,timestamp=2015-04-25T08:24:19.193+0000)

There is a difference between a champion being broken (see old Kassadin with 100% pick/ban rate), or people just jumping on a big hate train (Katarina, Akali, Yasuo...). Hell Akali and Yasuo are both fairly weak right now after their nerfs, but they are still banned every few games i play.

Akali and katarina were(before their nerfs) extreamly frustrating in solo q,this wasn't some hate train lead be pros,they earned their banrate fair and square by being crazy obnoxious and it's much better for these sort of things to be permabanned(if they are considered that big of a problem) then actually ruining games.

Yasuo has major gamehealth issues(same with kalista),but it's not as obvious as le blanc,he counters a lot of champions and trades little for it,so in solo q if you want to play something he counters(and the list is long) you ban the shitlord(same for kalista),his case is similar to the carry jungle meta,they countered a lot of things(be it tank junglers,or immobile laners) but riot refused to give them any tradeoffs for it(countering a large list of champions is obviously a big strength,and should be accompanied with a big weaknesses,but riot is absolutely terrible with tradeoffs),so when they finally did give them a tradeoff(as they fall off hard compared to cinderhulk tanks,or if they go for it themselves their early is less oppressive) the viable roster increased two fold,so even though by pick/bans they didn't appear broken,they were very much so.

Theorchero2 votes

I don't think we should have 10 bans, I think we should have 8.

DemiluniS1 votes

I really dont get what more bans going to contribute to the game. Longer champ select? Messing up the competitive scene? Limiting the champ pool? Forcing people to play weaker champions for the sake of diversity?

The game in a good balance state currently, you dont need 10 bans for the outliners

Earl Eulrich1 votes

a more strategic pick&ban-phase. It´s really the main thing LoL could learn from Dota.

DemiluniS1 votes

what strategic ban phase?! there are a few stronger champions that you banning by default and that's it. you can't really develop a strategy it champ select since everyone gonna play w/e he want anyway, and if anything it's just 2 more bans that the leader don't want to play against, or in the worst case troll your teammates.

Abyssphere2 votes

{quoted}

I really dont get what more bans going to contribute to the game. Longer champ select? Messing up the competitive scene? Limiting the champ pool? Forcing people to play weaker champions for the sake of diversity?

The game in a good balance state currently, you dont need 10 bans for the outliners

I am pretty sure it's just so the people proposing it can ban two additional assassins in addition to their current bans. And Sejuani, because why not.

I'm reluctant to really support additional bans just because in solo queue there is little strategic value to the ban phase. In professional play it makes player-targeted bans stronger and in solo q it's basically just "yay I get to ban two more champions that annoy me" so I don't see anything of value really.

It Hertz When IP1 votes

Out of curiosity, you list Ezreal and Urgot in the <50% list. Is that their overall winrate or their winrate when played as ADC? Cause Urgot can go bruiser top and Ez can take mid as AD caster or AP.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb2 votes

That is role specific.

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